really really horrible OCI luck

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Anonymous User
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really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:52 pm

I've officially gotten rejected by every single OCI interview I had. T14, above median, secondary journal.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rondemarino
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Re: suicide?

Postby rondemarino » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I've officially gotten rejected by every single OCI interview I had. T14, above median, secondary journal.


Obviously, no. But sorry to hear. Hopefully someone who knows more about the process than me can offer some relevant advice/encouragement.

reverendt
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Re: suicide?

Postby reverendt » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:10 pm

Sorry to hear it.
Not worth suicide though.
If I may ask:
1) How many interviews did you bid for?
2) What market(s) were the jobs in?

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kurla88
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Re: suicide?

Postby kurla88 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:11 pm

That sucks. :/ Does career services have any advice to offer?

Anonymous User
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Re: suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:12 pm

reverendt wrote:Sorry to hear it.
Not worth suicide though.
If I may ask:
1) How many interviews did you bid for?
2) What market(s) were the jobs in?


1) 13
2) NYC and one large secondary market where I have substantial connections

azlawlady
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Re: suicide?

Postby azlawlady » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:16 pm

Aww, I hope you were just kidding about the suicide. Do you have any ties to other secondary markets? I think the best thing for you would be to do your "mourning" over the situation, and then get your ass in gear and send out as many resumes as you can to other states that you wouldn't mind working in, a secondary market that you have ties to, clerkships, etc. There are still a lot of choices out there, and I believe there are many lower law schools who haven't even started OCI, so because you're T14, get yourself out there and try to snag interviews from those firms and those markets.

There are still lots of options out there so please don't lose hope.

LurkerNoMore
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Re: suicide?

Postby LurkerNoMore » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:19 pm

Sorry to hear that. (And, obviously you need to step back and get some perspective if your question was serious.)

Were any of your interviewers alumni? If so, you might consider reaching out to them and let them know that you appreciated them taking the time to meet with you, were sorry that you weren't a good fit for the firm, but wanted to know if they might be willing to offer you some candid advice about how to approach future interviews. Getting locked out of OCI could be a matter of not bidding correctly, or bad luck, or it could be that there is something about the way approach the interview process that is putting you at a disadvantage. If it is the latter, then finding someone to give you some pointers could be helpful as you start looking for other opportunities.

FrankReynolds
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby FrankReynolds » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:23 pm

13 is pretty low. I had almost 3X that...

Mark71121
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Mark71121 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:28 pm

how far above median were you? median + secondary journal really wasn't a shoe-in for biglaw this year, so i wouldn't say you had bad luck (other than being blindsided by ITE).

did you feel confident when you left interviews?

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Corsair
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Corsair » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:47 pm

..

strawberrysmoothie
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby strawberrysmoothie » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:11 am

Chin up. That really sucks, but take comfort in knowing that there are probably going to be lots of people that are in the same situation this year. Just remember not to take it personally. As another poster above said, the screening interviews you got could have been due to any number of factors, and as for callbacks - this is a really rough time. I'm sure you'll find something out there - maybe you'll just have to dig into some non-traditional routes to find it.

Again, just don't take it personally and keep your eye on the ball - work the market from a few different angles if you need to or expand your regional criteria, if you can. You'll find something. Don't get discouraged.

Anonymous User
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:26 am

FrankReynolds wrote:13 is pretty low. I had almost 3X that...

we bid anonymously for firms and there's a lottery that assigns the screening interviews. I talked with career services before the interviews and they said the firms I had were "Very good matches" for my numbers.


Mark71121 wrote:how far above median were you? median + secondary journal really wasn't a shoe-in for biglaw this year, so i wouldn't say you had bad luck (other than being blindsided by ITE).

did you feel confident when you left interviews?


I was about .15 above median, but we don't get ranked, so I don't know exactly where that puts me in the class.

I did feel confident for most of my interviews, though some of course were a bit awkward; I think everyone experiences that to some degree, however.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: suicide?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:27 am

kurla88 wrote:That sucks. :/ Does career services have any advice to offer?

not really.

Anonymous User
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:09 pm

the question i mainly have is: am i the victim of bad luck/bad economy or is there something fundamentally wrong with the way i interview/present myself? career services isn't really offering any meaningful advice or assistance at this point. if i'm not getting callbacks, should i just drop out of law school and cut my losses rather than take on more debt that i won't be able to pay back?

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TonyDigital
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby TonyDigital » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:21 pm

How bad do you want to be a lawyer? The answer to that question might help you out.

Is OCI the only way a law student can get a job? I'm a 0L but I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If you have to get out there on your own and make things happen for yourself then that's just what you got to do. Unless you want to quit. Good luck.

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rayiner
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby rayiner » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:37 pm

Did you bid to a lot of safeties? Depending on where you are, I'd guess 0.15 above median is still outside top 1/3. Except at CCN I'd imagine that's "I just hope I get anything out of OCI" territory, according to the predictions of the last couple of months. Did you bid accordingly?

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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:44 pm

rayiner wrote:Did you bid to a lot of safeties? Depending on where you are, I'd guess 0.15 above median is still outside top 1/3. Except at CCN I'd imagine that's "I just hope I get anything out of OCI" territory, according to the predictions of the last couple of months. Did you bid accordingly?

yes, I bid on a lot of firms that career services told me were safe.

.15 above median is not top 1/3, but .2 above is.

TonyDigital wrote:How bad do you want to be a lawyer? The answer to that question might help you out.

Is OCI the only way a law student can get a job? I'm a 0L but I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If you have to get out there on your own and make things happen for yourself then that's just what you got to do. Unless you want to quit. Good luck.

I would love to be a lawyer if I can do it without going bankrupt in the process (not that bankruptcy would help anyway).
Problem with "getting out there on my own and making things happen" is that I don't really know exactly what to do to make stuff happen, and career services doesn't really have much to offer except for the OCI program, which hasn't really served me that well. I've made lots of applications on my own, but they haven't really resulted in any interviews.

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rayiner
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby rayiner » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:Did you bid to a lot of safeties? Depending on where you are, I'd guess 0.15 above median is still outside top 1/3. Except at CCN I'd imagine that's "I just hope I get anything out of OCI" territory, according to the predictions of the last couple of months. Did you bid accordingly?

yes, I bid on a lot of firms that career services told me were safe.

.15 above median is not top 1/3, but .2 above is.

TonyDigital wrote:How bad do you want to be a lawyer? The answer to that question might help you out.

Is OCI the only way a law student can get a job? I'm a 0L but I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If you have to get out there on your own and make things happen for yourself then that's just what you got to do. Unless you want to quit. Good luck.

I would love to be a lawyer if I can do it without going bankrupt in the process (not that bankruptcy would help anyway).
Problem with "getting out there on my own and making things happen" is that I don't really know exactly what to do to make stuff happen, and career services doesn't really have much to offer except for the OCI program, which hasn't really served me that well. I've made lots of applications on my own, but they haven't really resulted in any interviews.


If you're at a school where where top 1/3 is disingushable (eg deans list at gulc) then it looks clear you could just be below the cut-off. No luck with smaller firms?

The thing about making it happen is that it is easier to say than do. Honestly I don't know what I'd do in your shoes. I've made contingency plans for striking out at OCI, but if I were just an average law student and hadn't known about this mess going in I'd be just as much at a loss for a plan. Do you have any previous WE to draw on, contacts you've made, favors you can cash? It doesn't take much, but that little bit can be hard to get. Hopefully other people have better advice.

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Matthies
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Matthies » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:Did you bid to a lot of safeties? Depending on where you are, I'd guess 0.15 above median is still outside top 1/3. Except at CCN I'd imagine that's "I just hope I get anything out of OCI" territory, according to the predictions of the last couple of months. Did you bid accordingly?

yes, I bid on a lot of firms that career services told me were safe.

.15 above median is not top 1/3, but .2 above is.

TonyDigital wrote:How bad do you want to be a lawyer? The answer to that question might help you out.

Is OCI the only way a law student can get a job? I'm a 0L but I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If you have to get out there on your own and make things happen for yourself then that's just what you got to do. Unless you want to quit. Good luck.

I would love to be a lawyer if I can do it without going bankrupt in the process (not that bankruptcy would help anyway).
Problem with "getting out there on my own and making things happen" is that I don't really know exactly what to do to make stuff happen, and career services doesn't really have much to offer except for the OCI program, which hasn't really served me that well. I've made lots of applications on my own, but they haven't really resulted in any interviews.


Getting out there and making things happen on your own takes time and effort and balls, so you need to start now.

First place to look is here: http://www.innsofcourt.org/ Inns are great ways to meet lawyers and judges in your community. Your usually assigned to a group with a judge or two, 2-3 lawyers with 20 years experience, 2-3 with ten years, 2-3 with five years and one or two students. You meet once a month for three hours for dinner and presentation. It forces you to go out in public and meet real lawyers and judges who might have jobs to offer you later. Look to see what chapters are in your city and contact them all about student memberships, should range from free to $100 for the year (and that include your food)

Next join your local bar associations, as many as there are in your town as a student member. Look for opportunities to get involved, sign up for the newsletters. Pick a few section groups that interest you and go to their monthly CLE meetings (free to $15 includes food). See if there is a Young lawyers Division group, here they have happy hours once a week plus ball games and such. Look for a lawyers sports league to play, we got everything from football to dodge ball teams here.

Volunteer at the local court a few hours a week. Go to professors office hours that you liked from last year but don’t have any more. You can talk to them more freely about jobs and such when you’re not s student.

Get a copy of Guerrilla Tactics for Getting the Law Job of Your Dreams by Kimm Walton.

The point is get out of school and get involved in the legal community. Who you know beats where you go or what your grades are if you know the right people. This takes time but you have two years left. By the time you are last semester 3L you should have more friends that are lawyers and judges than you do law students. When you get to this point landing a job becomes really easy because your entire networking is working for you. Next to grades over the next two years networking, meeting people, and staying in contact with them should be your number one priority.

Most law students will NOT find jobs from OCI, and its going to be even worse in the next few years. Networking and knowing people is the single best way to find out about jobs no one else even knows about. You want to avoid at all costs searching craigslist or mass mailing out resumes to firms you picked from the phone book. That’s how people end up with crap jobs. Knowing people who can introduce you to other people and put in a good word for you is the best way to land a good job. Once you get out there in the legal world you will be surprised by how small it really is, everyone knows everyone else. So who you know beats just about everything else. You need to be PROACTIVE about your job search, that's the making things happen part, and not REACTIVE that's the putting all decsions into the people's doing OCI part. Spread your eggs around to many baskets and you won't be screwed when one comes up empty becuase you got backup plans and know people.

Good luck

Anonymous User
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:25 pm

I doubt it's your fault (grades aside). It's simply going to be a rough couple of years for OCI. Firms don't want all of their 2009 summer associates, some firms are canceling OCI all together and others are publicly stating they are scaling way, way back (Skadden). I think given the circumstances, the firms that are hiring can afford to be very, very picky. This very well may significantly increase the necessary credentials to get a BigLaw job, even at a T14. Simply being "above median" probably won't cut it this year and probably next.

strawberrysmoothie
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby strawberrysmoothie » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:19 am

the question i mainly have is: am i the victim of bad luck/bad economy or is there something fundamentally wrong with the way i interview/present myself? career services isn't really offering any meaningful advice or assistance at this point. if i'm not getting callbacks, should i just drop out of law school and cut my losses rather than take on more debt that i won't be able to pay back?


That sucks. It sounds like what you really need is some good, honest feedback. If you have several people working at your career service office, I'd schedule another appointment time with the one whose reputation is the harshest, most brutal one. go in there and specifically ask for an honest assessment about why you're not getting more cbs - whether it's your grades, interviewing, whatever. I hope that they can at least point you in the right direction. I don't know if your school offers mock interviews or if you missed the date for that, but maybe you can ask them to arrange another one with you, even with one of the full-time counselor people, so they can give you more tips on what you may be doing right and wrong.

I doubt that what's happening is 100% you (translation: it's not all you; don't take it personally). Part of it is the market right now, but if there is anything that you could improve on, it sounds like maybe you really just want an honest assessment of what's going on and how you can be a better candidate NOW. If you can't get career services to help you, maybe get a friend or family member, or even a professor or TA or something who has gone through the process and isn't afraid to be really honest with you about giving you 3rd person constructive feedback.

I'm not sure about cutting your losses part... depends how much you actually like the law and law school, but it seems like a waste, to me... but you only know for yourself...

Anonymous User
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:44 am

strawberrysmoothie wrote:
the question i mainly have is: am i the victim of bad luck/bad economy or is there something fundamentally wrong with the way i interview/present myself? career services isn't really offering any meaningful advice or assistance at this point. if i'm not getting callbacks, should i just drop out of law school and cut my losses rather than take on more debt that i won't be able to pay back?


That sucks. It sounds like what you really need is some good, honest feedback. If you have several people working at your career service office, I'd schedule another appointment time with the one whose reputation is the harshest, most brutal one. go in there and specifically ask for an honest assessment about why you're not getting more cbs - whether it's your grades, interviewing, whatever. I hope that they can at least point you in the right direction. I don't know if your school offers mock interviews or if you missed the date for that, but maybe you can ask them to arrange another one with you, even with one of the full-time counselor people, so they can give you more tips on what you may be doing right and wrong.

I doubt that what's happening is 100% you (translation: it's not all you; don't take it personally). Part of it is the market right now, but if there is anything that you could improve on, it sounds like maybe you really just want an honest assessment of what's going on and how you can be a better candidate NOW. If you can't get career services to help you, maybe get a friend or family member, or even a professor or TA or something who has gone through the process and isn't afraid to be really honest with you about giving you 3rd person constructive feedback.

I'm not sure about cutting your losses part... depends how much you actually like the law and law school, but it seems like a waste, to me... but you only know for yourself...


The idea of cutting my losses is really depressing to me too--I actually love law school, and think that being a lawyer is a good fit for my personal strengths and personality. Biglaw, Inc. disagrees however. I'm really regretting my decision to attend T14 for sticker over several T25s that gave me full or nearly full rides; at the time that I made my decision, all data and advice that I was getting pointed me in the direction of the more prestigious school. What pisses me off more is that the only real distinction between T14 and T25 is the brand name and what career services offers; now career services is not offering me anything useful at all, so I can't help but feel a little gypped--and it's too late to transfer. So the only reason I'm considering cutting my losses is that it seems hard to justify a $130k+ investment in the next two years of education (sticker tuition plus living cost), when there's an increasing likelihood of $0 return.

apologies for incoherency of this response

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rayiner
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:
strawberrysmoothie wrote:
the question i mainly have is: am i the victim of bad luck/bad economy or is there something fundamentally wrong with the way i interview/present myself? career services isn't really offering any meaningful advice or assistance at this point. if i'm not getting callbacks, should i just drop out of law school and cut my losses rather than take on more debt that i won't be able to pay back?


That sucks. It sounds like what you really need is some good, honest feedback. If you have several people working at your career service office, I'd schedule another appointment time with the one whose reputation is the harshest, most brutal one. go in there and specifically ask for an honest assessment about why you're not getting more cbs - whether it's your grades, interviewing, whatever. I hope that they can at least point you in the right direction. I don't know if your school offers mock interviews or if you missed the date for that, but maybe you can ask them to arrange another one with you, even with one of the full-time counselor people, so they can give you more tips on what you may be doing right and wrong.

I doubt that what's happening is 100% you (translation: it's not all you; don't take it personally). Part of it is the market right now, but if there is anything that you could improve on, it sounds like maybe you really just want an honest assessment of what's going on and how you can be a better candidate NOW. If you can't get career services to help you, maybe get a friend or family member, or even a professor or TA or something who has gone through the process and isn't afraid to be really honest with you about giving you 3rd person constructive feedback.

I'm not sure about cutting your losses part... depends how much you actually like the law and law school, but it seems like a waste, to me... but you only know for yourself...


The idea of cutting my losses is really depressing to me too--I actually love law school, and think that being a lawyer is a good fit for my personal strengths and personality. Biglaw, Inc. disagrees however. I'm really regretting my decision to attend T14 for sticker over several T25s that gave me full or nearly full rides; at the time that I made my decision, all data and advice that I was getting pointed me in the direction of the more prestigious school. What pisses me off more is that the only real distinction between T14 and T25 is the brand name and what career services offers; now career services is not offering me anything useful at all, so I can't help but feel a little gypped--and it's too late to transfer. So the only reason I'm considering cutting my losses is that it seems hard to justify a $130k+ investment in the next two years of education (sticker tuition plus living cost), when there's an increasing likelihood of $0 return.

apologies for incoherency of this response


What are your alternative prospects, though? $65k in debt looking for a $30k job with your BA might be worse than $200k looking for a $60k legal job.

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Dtackpat75
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby Dtackpat75 » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:15 pm

Hey it really just time to look outside of the box. Look into some management consulting firms for summer work. I hear they like JDs. Thats not bad work and can be very prestigious and might still help you get a corporate gig down the road. Your chances of big law are slim to none but above median at T14 there are other places out there that would love to have somebody as smart and educated as yourself. Chin up!!

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rayiner
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Re: really really horrible OCI luck

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:23 pm

Dtackpat75 wrote:Hey it really just time to look outside of the box. Look into some management consulting firms for summer work. I hear they like JDs. Thats not bad work and can be very prestigious and might still help you get a corporate gig down the road. Your chances of big law are slim to none but above median at T14 there are other places out there that would love to have somebody as smart and educated as yourself. Chin up!!


Why would a management consulting firm hire him over the 2000+ other T14 kids who are above median?




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