What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

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ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:04 am

SteelReserve wrote:
Transferring was the worst fucking idea ever. 120k extra debt for only 1 callback


Sweet Jesus. I wonder if any of the people from my t2, who thought they were hot shit for transferring into a t20, are in a similar position?


Considering median at CCN, let alone MVPB or anything on down, haven't been doing to well...not so good, I would imagine.

It's tough when you are interviewing for positions that don't exist.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby BradyToMoss » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:36 am

SteelReserve wrote:
Transferring was the worst fucking idea ever. 120k extra debt for only 1 callback


Sweet Jesus. I wonder if any of the people from my t2, who thought they were hot shit for transferring into a t20, are in a similar position?


Either way, they are in a better position than you.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:42 am

BradyToMoss wrote:
SteelReserve wrote:
Transferring was the worst fucking idea ever. 120k extra debt for only 1 callback


Sweet Jesus. I wonder if any of the people from my t2, who thought they were hot shit for transferring into a t20, are in a similar position?


Either way, they are in a better position than you.


Not necessarily. The guy who stayed at the T2 might be paying significantly less in tuition.

I am not the person who you responded to, obviously.

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rayiner
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:43 am

ScaredWorkedBored wrote:
SteelReserve wrote:
Transferring was the worst fucking idea ever. 120k extra debt for only 1 callback


Sweet Jesus. I wonder if any of the people from my t2, who thought they were hot shit for transferring into a t20, are in a similar position?


Considering median at CCN, let alone MVPB or anything on down, haven't been doing to well...not so good, I would imagine.

It's tough when you are interviewing for positions that don't exist.


It seems interesting though how well-distributed the pwnage is across the T14.

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SteelReserve
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby SteelReserve » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:59 pm

Either way, they are in a better position than you.


Not necessarily. The guy who stayed at the T2 might be paying significantly less in tuition.


I'm not sure what the transfers' financial positions were at the t2 and what they are now at the t20. I'd imagine though that these people are paying sticker now (do transfers get scholarships? I have no idea.)

As far as my situation: I will be graduating with low/manageable debt. I am paying nowhere near sticker. My callback status so far is, I think, great considering the complete ass raping that is going on across the board. If oci works out for me, I can use a summer associate position and some savings to graduate law school nearly debt free.

Alright, I think i've said enough in my quest to not use the anonymous function habitually. Good luck to everyone.

Mark71121
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby Mark71121 » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:14 pm

it seems that firms are not "tier'ing" the t14. you're either ~top 1/3 or you're not. top 10% is cleaning up everywhere. top 1/3 basically everywhere has at least SOME callbacks. below that, it gets very ugly very fast. i know of some CCN students who are doing decent at the median, but for the most part median everywhere is having a tough time.

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Mr. T6
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby Mr. T6 » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:12 pm

Mark71121 wrote:it seems that firms are not "tier'ing" the t14. you're either ~top 1/3 or you're not. top 10% is cleaning up everywhere. top 1/3 basically everywhere has at least SOME callbacks. below that, it gets very ugly very fast. i know of some CCN students who are doing decent at the median, but for the most part median everywhere is having a tough time.


This.

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rayiner
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:20 pm

Mr. T6 wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:it seems that firms are not "tier'ing" the t14. you're either ~top 1/3 or you're not. top 10% is cleaning up everywhere. top 1/3 basically everywhere has at least SOME callbacks. below that, it gets very ugly very fast. i know of some CCN students who are doing decent at the median, but for the most part median everywhere is having a tough time.


This.


What's HYS looking like?

Anonymous User
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:07 pm

rayiner wrote:
Mr. T6 wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:it seems that firms are not "tier'ing" the t14. you're either ~top 1/3 or you're not. top 10% is cleaning up everywhere. top 1/3 basically everywhere has at least SOME callbacks. below that, it gets very ugly very fast. i know of some CCN students who are doing decent at the median, but for the most part median everywhere is having a tough time.


This.


What's HYS looking like?


Disproportionate at HLS.

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rayiner
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Mr. T6 wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:it seems that firms are not "tier'ing" the t14. you're either ~top 1/3 or you're not. top 10% is cleaning up everywhere. top 1/3 basically everywhere has at least SOME callbacks. below that, it gets very ugly very fast. i know of some CCN students who are doing decent at the median, but for the most part median everywhere is having a tough time.


This.


What's HYS looking like?


Disproportionate at HLS.


What does that mean?

Anonymous User
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:16 pm


What does that mean?


A few have many, many have few or none.

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rayiner
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:

What does that mean?


A few have many, many have few or none.


Well, at least everyone seems to be in the same (sinking) boat.

Anonymous User
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:44 pm

Some method of pre-screening at CLS (and I assume other schools) would be helpful for EVERYONE. I interviewed at way too many firms that were never going to hire me based on GPA. The concept is great, but we need more guidance. Can't the schools and firms work together on this? I know that going to CLS makes you smart and all and the school doesn't want to discriminate, blah blah, but if a firm has a GPA cutoff, it has a gpa cutoff.


I agree with part of your complaint, but not with your proposed solution. I think it would help everyone if CLS offered some GPA data: the historical median GPA of people receiving an offer from a firm, the lowest GPA that they made an offer to, etc. This would help people gauge their chances, and figure out how to spread their bids. I do believe people should be able to decide for themselves whether to give it a shot and use some of their bids for firms where their grades put them in the bottom 10 percent.

I think it's to the advantage of both students and CLS as a whole to allow students to make this decision for themselves: very often these over-reaching bids will turn out to have been wasted, but every so often someone will get lucky.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Some method of pre-screening at CLS (and I assume other schools) would be helpful for EVERYONE. I interviewed at way too many firms that were never going to hire me based on GPA. The concept is great, but we need more guidance. Can't the schools and firms work together on this? I know that going to CLS makes you smart and all and the school doesn't want to discriminate, blah blah, but if a firm has a GPA cutoff, it has a gpa cutoff.


I agree with part of your complaint, but not with your proposed solution. I think it would help everyone if CLS offered some GPA data: the historical median GPA of people receiving an offer from a firm, the lowest GPA that they made an offer to, etc. This would help people gauge their chances, and figure out how to spread their bids. I do believe people should be able to decide for themselves whether to give it a shot and use some of their bids for firms where their grades put them in the bottom 10 percent.

I think it's to the advantage of both students and CLS as a whole to allow students to make this decision for themselves: very often these over-reaching bids will turn out to have been wasted, but every so often someone will get lucky.


Yes, but the person who wasted their bid also took an interview slot from someone who actually had a chance at that job.

Blind OCIs should have died when the economy tanked. They are completely unjustifiable in the current environment--they negatively impact employers (who become frusterated interviewing people they instantly know they have no interest in,) strong students who miss out on interviews with firms they had a good chance with, and other students who are wasting their bids. I have little sympathy for the third group, but the first and second groups would also benefit from abolishing the blind OCI system.

---why---
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby ---why--- » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:13 am

There is GPA data out there. It was useless this year. If anything, people bid a "little low" to play it safe and the plan backfired. That firm looking for a 3.3 last year wants a 3.8 this year...not a 3.4.

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NewHere
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby NewHere » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:20 am

There is GPA data out there. It was useless this year. If anything, people bid a "little low" to play it safe and the plan backfired. That firm looking for a 3.3 last year wants a 3.8 this year...not a 3.4.


Interesting. Where did the GPA data come from? (I'm a 3L. Last year, they only gave us information on how many people a firm interviewed, how many call backs came out of that, etc. Did they change that policy?)

Anonymous User
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:44 am

Don't go to law school unless you have a big scholarship from a T-14.

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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:58 pm

Here's one thing I learned: Less prestigious firms may be harder for well qualified candidates to land than V20s. I'm not sure I can go as far as to say that Dechert, Cadwalader, and the like yield protect, but I know a lot more people on LR were dinged by these types of firms than Paul Weiss, for example. The interviews also frequently have a different tenor. At less prestigious firms, interviewers often seem to assume you're not serious about the firm unless you can prove otherwise. By contrast, more prestigious firms presume that everyone is serious.

This makes sense, of course. People with better credentials are more likely to gravitate to firms with better reputations--in this economy, this may be attributable to risk aversion as much as it is to prestige whoring. But from a strategic perspective, it's important to recognize this phenomenon when bidding. If you are a mediocre interviewee with good numbers, you're more likely to score callbacks from V10-V30 firms than V50-V100 firms. Bid accordingly, class of 2012.

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M51
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby M51 » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:47 pm

NewHere wrote:
There is GPA data out there. It was useless this year. If anything, people bid a "little low" to play it safe and the plan backfired. That firm looking for a 3.3 last year wants a 3.8 this year...not a 3.4.


Interesting. Where did the GPA data come from? (I'm a 3L. Last year, they only gave us information on how many people a firm interviewed, how many call backs came out of that, etc. Did they change that policy?)


I'm with you on this one, had no idea this data existed (and would be curious to know how to get access). All I had access to from career services was a % offered = Stone #, which was marginally helpful. But even that data was only availible in physical form in the office. I don't think firms would like it if the school actually tracked gpas of thier offers.

I learned from OCI (and callback receptions) that a lot of people I wouldn't have thought were good interviewers/minglers actually were quite good at it, and the reverse was unfortunately true for others. Before ITE, "just be yourself and you'll end up somewhere that suits you" may have been the right philosophy, but ITE the good interviewers stand out.

---why---
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Re: What did we learn after 2009 OCI?

Postby ---why--- » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:04 pm

Sorry, i should clarify - I didn't mean specific numbers are available at CLS. However, people seem to have an idea and at a lot of other schools the students do get GPA numbers. Regardless, just from talking to other students, career services, and looking at the stats we had, it was pretty easy to make GPA/rank assumptions.




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