OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

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NoleinNY
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby NoleinNY » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:50 pm

Bronte wrote:
NoleinNY wrote:I probably know the answer to this, but it's worth asking now than looking silly later.

I plan on buying a dark navy suit for OCI. The best shoes I own are these Cole Haan Cassidy Cap Toes: http://www.josbank.com/menswear/shop/Pr ... 050_254399

While it is brown, it is a very dark shade. Workable?


You'll be fine with those. But when you say "the best shoes I own," do you mean you own some black cap toes? Because if you do, you might as well wear those.


Nope. My only other 2 "dress" shoes are a pair of bike toe Rockport loafers and these Bostonians: --LinkRemoved--

It's hard to find a decent size 13 in stores.

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Bosque
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:35 pm

Pufer, are you actually in Albuquerque right now? Because if so, I am seriously contemplating offering to pay you to go shopping with me and update my wardrobe next time I am back. I need to start building a wardrobe for work, I don't think my one good suit, three pairs of meh pants I got on sale at Macys and collection of passable but boring Arrow fitted shirts I picked up from Kohls on a 70% off sale are going to cut it. My firm is business casual, but I still need better clothes than that I am thinking.

Actually, I thought I remembered you having a post on what you need to start a working wardrobe (as opposed to the interview suit post), do you or anyone else remember where that is?

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moandersen
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby moandersen » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:48 pm

Pufer wrote:The version on page 75 is updated and easier to read (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... start=1851). :)


What you wrote is outstanding and very impressive. A follow up question I have is where can I buy a decent suit for 400-600? Is my budget just in that no mans land range and will not land me a quality suit? My eyes are now open to MW, but you mention that department stores are similar. Excuse me ignorance, but where do I look for suits if not those types of places? Thanks!

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Bosque
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:10 pm

moandersen wrote:
Pufer wrote:The version on page 75 is updated and easier to read (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=63606&start=1851). :)


What you wrote is outstanding and very impressive. A follow up question I have is where can I buy a decent suit for 400-600? Is my budget just in that no mans land range and will not land me a quality suit? My eyes are now open to MW, but you mention that department stores are similar. Excuse me ignorance, but where do I look for suits if not those types of places? Thanks!


Does you law school have a deal with a tailor? Mine gets us what I think is a good deal from Raja Fashions (they say Bespoke, but I am pretty sure they are MTM). They come around once a year, you can get measured, they make you what you ask for and mail it to you. I got my good suit from them, a dark charcoal that ended up costing me about $400, which the guy selling it to me claimed would normally have cost about 1K. I think the dea is to get us hooked on the suits as students so that we will come back and pay full price when we have a job. I've been happy with it, although I am sure Pufer has his own (vasty superior) opinion.

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Bosque
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:22 pm

Oh, and if you have any advice on stores to go to in Albuquerque to get good quality business casual to formal clothes, you would be my new favorite person. I am not really going to have time to shop until I go home for Christmas break, so knowing where to go there would help a lot. You're the best!

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Pufer
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Pufer » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:14 pm

Bosque wrote:Pufer, are you actually in Albuquerque right now? Because if so, I am seriously contemplating offering to pay you to go shopping with me and update my wardrobe next time I am back.


I'm in Phoenix now, unfortunately. (Back in 2007, everyone on the boards had location lines. They did away with that sometime in early 2008, but that had the effect of locking those of us who existed pre-change into what we had as our locations. My profile thing to the left has said ABQ since and there's no way I can figure out to change it (not that I very much care).)

Bosque wrote:I need to start building a wardrobe for work, I don't think my one good suit, three pairs of meh pants I got on sale at Macys and collection of passable but boring Arrow fitted shirts I picked up from Kohls on a 70% off sale are going to cut it. My firm is business casual, but I still need better clothes than that I am thinking.

Actually, I thought I remembered you having a post on what you need to start a working wardrobe (as opposed to the interview suit post), do you or anyone else remember where that is?


I have no idea where anything is now that everything's been folded into this massive topic.

Sounds like you'll probably need more clothes, even if nothing else. The issue with business casual, however, is that there's no way to tell what it actually means for any particular firm. As I've mentioned before, I've worked in a "business casual" office where dark jeans and a polo was the standard fare, but also one where slacks, a solid dress shirt, and a tie was the uniform. I've heard of "business casual" firms where the "casual" only means that you don't have to wear a tie with your full suit, but most folks still do.

What you can do is really going to depend on what everyone else is doing, and there's no real way to figure that out except through first-hand experience.

Bosque wrote:Oh, and if you have any advice on stores to go to in Albuquerque to get good quality business casual to formal clothes, you would be my new favorite person. I am not really going to have time to shop until I go home for Christmas break, so knowing where to go there would help a lot. You're the best!


ABQ sucks for shopping. You're probably going to be stuck with the after-Xmas sales at Dillard's (the one at Winrock generally has better stock during the Xmas sale than the Cottonwood one). There's a JAB at ABQ Uptown. Robert R. Bailey's Clothiers is a very nice formal men's store (in that shopping center across Louisiana from Winrock; next to Le Peep), but is viciously expensive. There's really not much else worth it (Kistler-Collister was the last proper upscale department store, but is now an Ace Hardware last time I was in ABQ).

At the Santa Fe Outlet Mall, there are Ralph Lauren, BB, Hilfiger, and Van Heusen outlet stores (or at least there were a couple years ago), amongst other things. That might be a better bet if you wanted to take the 45 minute drive.

moandersen wrote:What you wrote is outstanding and very impressive. A follow up question I have is where can I buy a decent suit for 400-600? Is my budget just in that no mans land range and will not land me a quality suit? My eyes are now open to MW, but you mention that department stores are similar. Excuse me ignorance, but where do I look for suits if not those types of places? Thanks!


$400-600 really is a bit of a dead zone, but only because most of the suits that list in that price range can be had at or under $250. There's nothing necessarily wrong with the suits at MW or the department stores, it's just that they're wildly overpriced. If you like those suits, you just need to find them at a price where you're not getting screwed. The internet is really best for this, with Sierra Trading Post and Overstock being the primary sources for MW-type brands on discount (I'd recommend Lauren suits on STP under at least $180 with one of their email list coupons).

You can also go JAB with Signature level or above during their next 3-for-1 (or better) sale if you like how they look on you (a lot of folks don't like the wider pads on the JAB shoulders, but a lot of folks don't care - hit a JAB store and try a couple on before pulling the trigger). If a BB outlet is having a sale, the 346 line is okay, just make sure you buy during a sale.

Brooks Brothers is an excellent source if you hit them during their big sales (next one will probably be around Thanksgiving).

On department stores, any store can have a sale that brings their suits into a more reasonable price range. Dillard's is probably the best among the common department stores and has occasional suit sales that are really quite good (look for Hart Schaffner Marx; avoid Ralph), and Dillards Clearance Center (if you have one nearby) is a nice source for cheap suits as well, although their staple suit selection is very fluid.

Nordstrom and Saks will have some extremely nice suits at some extremely high prices. Look for sales or hit Nordstrom Rack or Off 5th (the Rack is generally vastly superior to Off 5th).

Ultimately, most suits will do fine for OCI so long as they're nicely tailored. The issue really is how most stores try to rape the suit-buying consumer in the sub-$500 price range and trying to avoid that. Rather than deciding that you have to kill yourself trying to get the best possible suit you can with your budget, go with a Lauren from STP (which is either a $495 or $595 list price suit at MW, depending on the MW) for $155-$180 and save the rest of your cash for booze (or more suits).

A standard Lauren is basically a decent suit that would fall between an Executive and a Signature suit from JAB, only without the JAB trademark wide shoulders - it is pretty generic and should be tailorable to most folks' body types. After it's tailored at a local tailor, I guarantee that you'll look every bit as good as the vast majority of your competition (and, if your law school is anything like mine was, you'll actually look noticeably better than probably two-thirds of them).

-Pufer

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dakure
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby dakure » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:18 pm

I can't afford BB or anything like that, but there is a perry ellis outlet a little ways from my house. Their shirts fit me really well. What is your opinion on Perry Ellis?

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Bosque
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Bosque » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:30 pm

Thanks Pufer! I know ABQ sucks for shopping, which is going to make this interesting (although it is not like Durham is all that much better). I'll probably make a trip up to the outlet mall while I am there and see what I can find, but I might just need to wait until I move up to DC and go on a wild spree.

Oh, and since I worked at this place over the last summer, I am pretty sure I can confidently tell you what business casual entails (sorry, should have said something in the first place). No ties unless you are going to court. If you feel like being dressy for the day, you might put on a blazer, but no one wears a suit unless they are giving a presentation or going somewhere. Middle of the road would probably be slacks and patterned (or plain) dress shirt. Something a lot like this:

--ImageRemoved--

People do wear polos and khakis, but I don't really want to get that informal with my attire.

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:08 pm

Business Casual post-OCI dinner: Is a suit with no tie acceptable?

barrydukakis
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby barrydukakis » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:09 pm

.
Last edited by barrydukakis on Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AntiHuman
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby AntiHuman » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:39 am

I have an interview tomorrow...

1. planning to rock a dark grey solid pronto uomo suit with a solid white shirt with a solid red "power"(wtf does this mean) tie and black loafers and a black belt with a silver buckle that isnt too flashy.

2. I also have a dark navy pinstripe suit which I plan to use as well...the pinstripes are barely noticeable though.

3. How often should I dry clean my suits? I wear them 3-4 days of the week and I sweat a lot and live in a hot climate. I'm more concerned of the wrinkles than the odor.

4. Conventional wisdom with a dark grey/dark navy is only white and light blue shirts and only conservative ties?

5. Are 2 suits enough or should I get a charcoal and dark brown as well?

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Pufer
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Pufer » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:55 am

Bosque wrote:Oh, and since I worked at this place over the last summer, I am pretty sure I can confidently tell you what business casual entails (sorry, should have said something in the first place). No ties unless you are going to court. If you feel like being dressy for the day, you might put on a blazer, but no one wears a suit unless they are giving a presentation or going somewhere. Middle of the road would probably be slacks and patterned (or plain) dress shirt. Something a lot like this:

<img>

People do wear polos and khakis, but I don't really want to get that informal with my attire.


With that level of business casual, I'd probably start hitting TJ Maxx/Marshalls/Ross looking for decent slacks on the cheap (I've had good luck with Perry Ellis slacks from TJ Maxx/Marshall's). Dress pants in general are pretty stupid looking if you actually look at them, and they're probably not going to last you the rest of your life, so I question the need to really incur the expense of a JAB or BB biz casual wardrobe on that front in an office that isn't requiring jackets. In DC, you can pretty well get away with three-season trousers in synthetic or wool (whatever you prefer) year round.

If you wanted to pick up a couple pairs of khakis as well (casual Fridays or whatever), I'm a fan of the infinite customizability (one inch waist increments, and they'll hem them whatever length you want) of Eddie Bauer khakis.

For shirts, I'd probably go with two levels of dress shirt. The bulk being some standard boxed and striped business shirts in pale colors (I'd probably go for some tailored fit JAB Travelers on a sale), but I'd also have a selection leaning towards the more stylish side (I'm thinking some pocket-less striped shirts in some slightly bolder colors from a more style-forward brand like BCBG, which is available at Dillard's, although maybe not in the middle of winter except at a Dillard's Clearance Center). If you won't ever be wearing a tie, the slightly more daring shirts would be a good substitute if you find yourself in what would otherwise be a colorful patterned tie sort of mood.

AntiHuman wrote:I have an interview tomorrow...

1. planning to rock a dark grey solid pronto uomo suit with a solid white shirt with a solid red "power"(wtf does this mean) tie and black loafers and a black belt with a silver buckle that isnt too flashy.

2. I also have a dark navy pinstripe suit which I plan to use as well...the pinstripes are barely noticeable though.

3. How often should I dry clean my suits? I wear them 3-4 days of the week and I sweat a lot and live in a hot climate. I'm more concerned of the wrinkles than the odor.

4. Conventional wisdom with a dark grey/dark navy is only white and light blue shirts and only conservative ties?

5. Are 2 suits enough or should I get a charcoal and dark brown as well?


On the wrinkles, you can try the old hang it in the bathroom while you take a shower trick, but it's never worked all that well for me on those pesky back wrinkles after a number of wears. I'd recommend grabbing a good steamer or an iron with a good vertical steam function (I have a Rowenta DW8080 which is a pretty great all-around iron).

On an interview, the default should be to definitely go as conservative as possible in selecting every aspect of your wardrobe.

Two suits will definitely be enough for OCI. If you are asking whether you should buy two extra suits for something other than OCI, you should probably expand on what your situation is.

-Pufer

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Bronte
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Bronte » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:00 am

AntiHuman wrote:1. planning to rock a dark grey solid pronto uomo suit with a solid white shirt with a solid red "power"(wtf does this mean) tie and black loafers and a black belt with a silver buckle that isnt too flashy.


Do you have a pair of black lace-ups? It's much preferable to wear lace-ups over loafers. The Bostonian captoe is a cheap option.

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Bosque » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:45 pm

Pufer wrote:
Bosque wrote:Oh, and since I worked at this place over the last summer, I am pretty sure I can confidently tell you what business casual entails (sorry, should have said something in the first place). No ties unless you are going to court. If you feel like being dressy for the day, you might put on a blazer, but no one wears a suit unless they are giving a presentation or going somewhere. Middle of the road would probably be slacks and patterned (or plain) dress shirt. Something a lot like this:

<img>

People do wear polos and khakis, but I don't really want to get that informal with my attire.


With that level of business casual, I'd probably start hitting TJ Maxx/Marshalls/Ross looking for decent slacks on the cheap (I've had good luck with Perry Ellis slacks from TJ Maxx/Marshall's). Dress pants in general are pretty stupid looking if you actually look at them, and they're probably not going to last you the rest of your life, so I question the need to really incur the expense of a JAB or BB biz casual wardrobe on that front in an office that isn't requiring jackets. In DC, you can pretty well get away with three-season trousers in synthetic or wool (whatever you prefer) year round.

If you wanted to pick up a couple pairs of khakis as well (casual Fridays or whatever), I'm a fan of the infinite customizability (one inch waist increments, and they'll hem them whatever length you want) of Eddie Bauer khakis.

For shirts, I'd probably go with two levels of dress shirt. The bulk being some standard boxed and striped business shirts in pale colors (I'd probably go for some tailored fit JAB Travelers on a sale), but I'd also have a selection leaning towards the more stylish side (I'm thinking some pocket-less striped shirts in some slightly bolder colors from a more style-forward brand like BCBG, which is available at Dillard's, although maybe not in the middle of winter except at a Dillard's Clearance Center). If you won't ever be wearing a tie, the slightly more daring shirts would be a good substitute if you find yourself in what would otherwise be a colorful patterned tie sort of mood.


Great advice, thanks!

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby romothesavior » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:30 pm

Bronte wrote:
AntiHuman wrote:1. planning to rock a dark grey solid pronto uomo suit with a solid white shirt with a solid red "power"(wtf does this mean) tie and black loafers and a black belt with a silver buckle that isnt too flashy.


Do you have a pair of black lace-ups? It's much preferable to wear lace-ups over loafers. The Bostonian captoe is a cheap option.

+1. Loafers as very casual.

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dakure
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby dakure » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:40 pm

I'm a loser and burned my newest shirt. Help me pufer? <3

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby AntiHuman » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:05 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Bronte wrote:
AntiHuman wrote:1. planning to rock a dark grey solid pronto uomo suit with a solid white shirt with a solid red "power"(wtf does this mean) tie and black loafers and a black belt with a silver buckle that isnt too flashy.


Do you have a pair of black lace-ups? It's much preferable to wear lace-ups over loafers. The Bostonian captoe is a cheap option.

+1. Loafers as very casual.


eh whatever lol...I spoke to many recruiting attorneys and they said shoes dont make a damn difference unless they are highly noticeable(in the wrong way).

I've read the first 60 pages of this thread...I feel embarrased for some of you guys and your posts lol. Like a 20-30 page debate on whether or not button down collars? lol wtf?

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby nymario » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:12 pm

AntiHuman wrote:
I've read the first 60 pages of this thread...I feel embarrased for some of you guys and your posts lol. Like a 20-30 page debate on whether or not button down collars? lol wtf?


Did you watch Suits this week? The tech dude, Benjamin? With the button down collar? Ridiculous.

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby AntiHuman » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:22 pm

nymario wrote:
AntiHuman wrote:
I've read the first 60 pages of this thread...I feel embarrased for some of you guys and your posts lol. Like a 20-30 page debate on whether or not button down collars? lol wtf?


Did you watch Suits this week? The tech dude, Benjamin? With the button down collar? Ridiculous.


I'm curious...on the west coast...do small,medium, large firms really require to dress up in a suit every day?(even the days you dont go to court or do depos...w/e)

goodolgil
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby goodolgil » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:26 pm

AntiHuman wrote:
nymario wrote:
AntiHuman wrote:
I've read the first 60 pages of this thread...I feel embarrased for some of you guys and your posts lol. Like a 20-30 page debate on whether or not button down collars? lol wtf?


Did you watch Suits this week? The tech dude, Benjamin? With the button down collar? Ridiculous.


I'm curious...on the west coast...do small,medium, large firms really require to dress up in a suit every day?(even the days you dont go to court or do depos...w/e)


No, most firms across the country are business casual to the office with a few exceptions (like Cravath IIRC).

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Bronte
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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Bronte » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:43 am

AntiHuman wrote:
romothesavior wrote:+1. Loafers as very casual.


eh whatever lol...I spoke to many recruiting attorneys and they said shoes dont make a damn difference unless they are highly noticeable(in the wrong way).

I've read the first 60 pages of this thread...I feel embarrased for some of you guys and your posts lol. Like a 20-30 page debate on whether or not button down collars? lol wtf?


The thread is about the details of men's attire. You posted the attire you're planning to wear to OCI in a men's attire thread. If you're completely set on what you're wearing, why did you post it? I pointed out that loafers are not optimal. That's objectively true and common sense. They're casual shoes. Obviously, what's discussed herein is not going to make or break you in an interview.

But you and the long line of posters before you bemoaning the detail-orientation of the thread are just obnoxious. Its purpose is to get at the details and to agree on what's best to wear to an interview. If you're not interested in that discussion, go elsewhere and don't post your planned attire ITT and then lash out at constructive criticism. Also, what the "many recruiting attorneys" you've spoken to say or think really doesn't matter. We're well aware, and it's been readily acknowledged, that many interviewers don't care about what people wear. But some do, and we're thus discussing best practices.

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby romothesavior » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:15 am

+1000 ^^^

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:02 am

AntiHuman wrote:
romothesavior wrote:+1. Loafers as very casual.


eh whatever lol...I spoke to many recruiting attorneys and they said shoes dont make a damn difference unless they are highly noticeable(in the wrong way).

I've read the first 60 pages of this thread...I feel embarrased for some of you guys and your posts lol. Like a 20-30 page debate on whether or not button down collars? lol wtf?


Since you are from California, let me analogize this to something you understand. Have you ever been hanging out with your friends in public when you see some guy wearing a Volcom t-shirt he bought at Pac Sun and some normal-fitting jeans he got from American Eagle or something like that, and is rocking some white New Balance or huge high top basketball shoes or Nike Shocks or something?

Your first reaction when seeing his shoes is that he is a nerd/poser and does not know how to dress himself.

This might be true. It might also be that he does not like DC/Es/Etnies shoes and just enjoys wearing a good athletic shoe with a casual outfit. Your parents or older brother who graduated in 1995 or more nerdy friends probably wouldn't recognize the difference between the shoes. Likewise, people in the Midwest, South, and parts of the Mountain West probably wouldn't notice the difference either, or would think something like "wow, those Nike Shocks with the red springs on the back are sweet!" However, the guy has made a bad impression on you and lots of other people your age in the area.

The same thing is true for loafers. A lot of interviewers will look, and wont really care. Some interviewers, especially old school parters will look and have the same reaction toward you that you would have to the guy wearing the Nike Shocks. They have no idea why you wouldn't wear a pair of cap toe lace ups to an interview and think that you must be the weird, nerdy, or fashion-unconscious one.

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Bosque » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:28 am

TaipeiMort wrote:
AntiHuman wrote:
romothesavior wrote:+1. Loafers as very casual.


eh whatever lol...I spoke to many recruiting attorneys and they said shoes dont make a damn difference unless they are highly noticeable(in the wrong way).

I've read the first 60 pages of this thread...I feel embarrased for some of you guys and your posts lol. Like a 20-30 page debate on whether or not button down collars? lol wtf?


Since you are from California, let me analogize this to something you understand. Have you ever been hanging out with your friends in public when you see some guy wearing a Volcom t-shirt he bought at Pac Sun and some normal-fitting jeans he got from American Eagle or something like that, and is rocking some white New Balance or huge high top basketball shoes or Nike Shocks or something?

Your first reaction when seeing his shoes is that he is a nerd/poser and does not know how to dress himself.

This might be true. It might also be that he does not like DC/Es/Etnies shoes and just enjoys wearing a good athletic shoe with a casual outfit. Your parents or older brother who graduated in 1995 or more nerdy friends probably wouldn't recognize the difference between the shoes. Likewise, people in the Midwest, South, and parts of the Mountain West probably wouldn't notice the difference either, or would think something like "wow, those Nike Shocks with the red springs on the back are sweet!" However, the guy has made a bad impression on you and lots of other people your age in the area.

The same thing is true for loafers. A lot of interviewers will look, and wont really care. Some interviewers, especially old school parters will look and have the same reaction toward you that you would have to the guy wearing the Nike Shocks. They have no idea why you wouldn't wear a pair of cap toe lace ups to an interview and think that you must be the weird, nerdy, or fashion-unconscious one.


Wait, people care that much about CASUAL shoes? I understand putting effort into a professional outfit, but I don't think I have ever judged anyone by what is on their feet when they are just walking around. Or at least, not to the fine distinction between athletic sneakers and casual sneakers.

Then again, I am from the Mountain West AND a self confessed nerd, so what do I know? If you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go put on my Keens and check the mail.

Image

Love em!

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Re: OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread

Postby Ghost » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:33 am

,
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