OCI/callbacks/etc Men's Clothing Mega-thread Forum

[delusional]

So I went to Macy's to pick up a bunch of dress shirts. It seemed like 90% of the stuff I found had "point collars" rather than the wider collars. I tried on 5 or 6 different brands, and I think 4 of them had these type of collars. I need to get slim fit, lest I look like a square (Im short and muscular).

<pics>

I got frustrated and said fuck it. I just bought 2 and made sure to ask about the return policy. I wanted to try it on with my suit and see how it looks. I dont really like it, but Im not sure if that's because Im just not used to it or if it genuinely looks retarded. I dont like that the collar doesnt go underneath the collar of my suit.

Thoughts?

Traditionally, you could tell the formality of an event by the width of the collar that was expected at it. For a formal portrait in a suit, you wouldn't would definitely have a collar wide enough that the collar tips would be fully concealed behind your jacket lapels. Notwithstanding the current popularity of the wider forms of the spread collar, this is still generally the rule.

Everything you will ever do as a lawyer (except for taking the odd formal portrait or fancy ass dinner) is not formal. It's business. For business, a narrower spread is most appropriate, but the current style dictates that up to a medium spread is fully acceptable. Basically, the range is standard point to medium spread. If you go narrower, you look like an extra from Goodfellas. If you go wider, you look like you're going to a prom. (If you go button-down, you look like you shouldn't be wearing a tie.)

If you prefer medium spread, return your point collars for a couple medium spreads and nobody will ever look at you twice. However, with the shorter length of today's collars (particularly in slimmer-cut off-the-rack shirts), a lot of medium spread collars won't be hidden by your jacket lapels either.

Also, despite the apparent plethora of brands at Macy's, everything there is made by the same two companies. There's no reason to shop at Macy's for anything, ever, unless you particularly like the store-brand Alfani undershirts or they're having one hell of a sale. All their label stuff is available at TJ Maxx/Marshalls/Ross/Burlington Coat Factory/anywhere for a lot less.

-Pufer

Just bought a ton of stuff there on sale, for about 80% off of what Macys sells for regularly, but only about 25% cheaper than Marshall's. Is it really the same stuff? No cheaper run or anything for the lower end stores? How does Alfani compare to the Calvin Klein/Lauren/Perry Ellis type stuff that you find in both Macy's and TJ Maxx/Marshall's?

[Pufer]

Just bought a ton of stuff there on sale, for about 80% off of what Macys sells for regularly, but only about 25% cheaper than Marshall's. Is it really the same stuff? No cheaper run or anything for the lower end stores? How does Alfani compare to the Calvin Klein/Lauren/Perry Ellis type stuff that you find in both Macy's and TJ Maxx/Marshall's?

Alfani is the "stylish" generic Macy's store brand (the "gentlemanly" generic Macy's brand is Club Room). In keeping with the idea that Macy's is a middle-market department store, Alfani is generally a step above comparable stuff you'd find at the suburban or down-market department stores (Kohl's/JC Penney/Sears), but a step below the up-market stuff (Nordstrom, etc.).

TJ Maxx/Marshalls effectively serve as the past-season and over-purchase clearance centers for Macy's (and lots of other places). As such, it's literally the exact same stuff. In fact, you can regularly find Alfani and Club Room stuff—the stuff made by Macy's itself and sold at no other department store—at TJ Maxx/Marshalls.

There isn't all that much brand overlap between the middle-market brands sold at Macy's and the stuff sold at the down-market department stores, so if you know the brands sold at Macy's, you can Macy's quality stuff out at TJ Maxx if you're worried about that, not that there's really much difference between anything made by PVH for the various department stores other than the label placed on the generic garment.

-Pufer

[mephistopheles]

Just bought a ton of stuff there on sale, for about 80% off of what Macys sells for regularly, but only about 25% cheaper than Marshall's. Is it really the same stuff? No cheaper run or anything for the lower end stores? How does Alfani compare to the Calvin Klein/Lauren/Perry Ellis type stuff that you find in both Macy's and TJ Maxx/Marshall's?

Alfani is the "stylish" generic Macy's store brand (the "gentlemanly" generic Macy's brand is Club Room). In keeping with the idea that Macy's is a middle-market department store, Alfani is generally a step above comparable stuff you'd find at the suburban or down-market department stores (Kohl's/JC Penney/Sears), but a step below the up-market stuff (Nordstrom, etc.).

TJ Maxx/Marshalls effectively serve as the past-season and over-purchase clearance centers for Macy's (and lots of other places). As such, it's literally the exact same stuff. In fact, you can regularly find Alfani and Club Room stuff—the stuff made by Macy's itself and sold at no other department store—at TJ Maxx/Marshalls.

There isn't all that much brand overlap between the middle-market brands sold at Macy's and the stuff sold at the down-market department stores, so if you know the brands sold at Macy's, you can Macy's quality stuff out at TJ Maxx if you're worried about that, not that there's really much difference between anything made by PVH for the various department stores other than the label placed on the generic garment.

-Pufer

repost for pufer..


so i was so close to buying a pair of AEs (though park ave or 5th, i'm not sure), and i take a look on the site and the park avenue page is filled with negative reviews about the durability, even within a year.

what's the take away? is that true?

[chrisbru]

I dont like that the collar doesnt go underneath the collar of my suit.

This sounds like a huge problem. What do you mean exactly? Point collars otherwise would be okay.

Look at the pic of the dude in the suit. His "points" arent covered by the collar of the suit coat. They just kinda hang out. And when I have a half-windsor, they are slightly lifted off of the surface of the shirt.

As Pufer said, point collars are not only a problem, they are preferred to the really wide spread collars. If a half-windsor is a problem, then you probably need a little bigger spread though. Point collars work great with a four-in-hand, which is an underrated knot IMO.

[nevdash]

I know the general consensus seems to indicate that AE Park Avenues are the credited shoe choice. But I tend to wear my suits a bit slim, and something about cap-toe shoes just rubs me the wrong way when worn with a slim-fit suit. Would I still look conservative enough if I wore something like these instead?: http://www.zappos.com/allen-edmonds-ken ... ished-calf

[LeDique]

That would be fine. I think this anti-captoe opinion thing around here is really weird but whatever.

[nevdash]

That would be fine. I think this anti-captoe opinion thing around here is really weird but whatever.

Eh, I look at it this way: have you ever seen someone wearing skinny jeans with big, clunky Reeboks? Some people think it looks good, and more power to them. But I think slimmer pants look better when worn with a shoe that has a more seamless line from the ankle to the ground, like a pair of Chuck Taylors or Toms. That said, I still don't want to be seen as a gigolo during interviews if old partners don't share my taste.

[sprezz]

I know the general consensus seems to indicate that AE Park Avenues are the credited shoe choice. But I tend to wear my suits a bit slim, and something about cap-toe shoes just rubs me the wrong way when worn with a slim-fit suit. Would I still look conservative enough if I wore something like these instead?: http://www.zappos.com/allen-edmonds-ken ... ished-calf

i share your preference for shoes without the cap-toe, but went with the park avenue anyway for an interview shoe because in my experience even gentlemen who do not obsess over their shoe selection recognize that an oxford/balmoral is more formal than a derby/blucher. the shoe you have linked to probably would not raise any eyebrows, but in weighing the options i liked how the park avenue looked on my foot more than i liked it online or in my hands and ultimately took the most conservative route (well, almost...i couldn't bear for my first $300+ shoe to be black).

to the poster above asking about the durability of the park avenue, it appears that a lot of the issues AE has had with this particular shoe concern it bowing around the ankle. my supposition is that a majority of these issues arise from a poor fit, but i'm not really an expert on this and there are better resources online to look into that particular issue. perhaps any other concerns about durability of the shoe arise from customers misunderstanding that any leather-soled shoe needs to be treated differently than a rubber-soled shoe? at any rate, the reason many recommend purchasing their first shoe through allen edmonds is excellent customer service, so to the extent that any research you do indicates that this concern is less about a design flaw and more a concern for quality control, i personally would not view this as a reason not to purchase from allen edmonds. others are, of course, welcome to disagree.

[Pufer]

so i was so close to buying a pair of AEs (though park ave or 5th, i'm not sure), and i take a look on the site and the park avenue page is filled with negative reviews about the durability, even within a year.

what's the take away? is that true?

Depends on what you expect, I suppose.

Back when I was a kid, I got one pair of sneakers a year. The weekend before school started, my mom would take me to foot locker, and I could get any shoe I wanted. I'd grab the coolest basketball shoes I could find because I figured there wasn't anything as fly as some Jordans or something (I never liked the Jordans, actually; my favorite all time were some Reebok Air Kamikaze II Shawn Kemps). I'd then wear them damn near daily for the next year. By winter break, they were looking pretty shitty, and I would generally stop cleaning them with that brush-cap foam can. By May, they were worn the fuck out - no tread, uppers all fucked up.

Now, if you wear your AEs like I wore my basketball shoes, I can't imagine why you would expect them to last any longer. Indeed, inasmuch as the AE's uppers show abuse a lot easier than those did, and their soles are a lot thinner, their USAble Life would probably be shit under that kind of usage. To be sure, nobody is playing ball at lunch in their AEs, but if you have a mile worth of daily trekking to and from the train or something, you're putting some wear on your shoes.

If you're taking care of your uppers regularly and giving them time to rest with nice cedar shoe trees, I would imagine that you could probably easily get quite a few years worth of wear out of any AE leather. However, I imagine you'd also probably go through a few new heels and probably a couple resoles on them to make it there. If you're living in the real world, your leather soles are going to be exposed to water, gasoline, pigeon shit, and all manner of other life-degrading stuff on the streets, and they're a lot more susceptible to stuff like than than whatever synthetic stuff my basketball shoe soles were made out of, even though you're not wearing them as hard or as often as you would sneakers. This is true of pretty much any leather-soled dress shoe.

As to the uppers, a pair of Bostonians under regular usage probably aren't going to last much longer than a year, regardless of how much care you put into them (it's like the top, colored layer of the leather detaches from the rest of the shoe). AEs should probably last you a few years before they start to degrade, but they're absolutely not going to be the types of shoes you read about lasting people their entire working lives with only an annual trip to the cobbler for sole work.

Thus, if the reviews are bitching about their soles wearing out after wearing their shoes daily, without care, in hard service, for four months, I would say that they have no reason to complain because that's probably all that you can expect under such conditions. If the reviews are bitching about the AEs wearing out after only four months when they're in normal office usage, in a shoe rotation so that they're not worn more than twice a week, and regularly cared for and treed, I'd say that that would not be my experience with AEs, and would assume that they either got a bad pair or that AE's quality standards have suddenly gone out the window.

In short, simply because they're expensive doesn't mean that you should expect your AEs to last longer in terms of sole life than any other kind of leather-soled shoe, but a lot of people expect exactly that. It is my own experience that the AE uppers will last a lot longer than those on cheaper shoes assuming the same normal usage, placement in a shoe rotation, and regular maintenance. The takeaway is don't worry about AE quality, take care of your uppers, and don't expect the soles to last any longer than any other pair of soles you've ever owned.

I know the general consensus seems to indicate that AE Park Avenues are the credited shoe choice. But I tend to wear my suits a bit slim, and something about cap-toe shoes just rubs me the wrong way when worn with a slim-fit suit. Would I still look conservative enough if I wore something like these instead?: http://www.zappos.com/allen-edmonds-ken ... ished-calf

Those would be fine. Just avoid going too pointy if you're avoiding the cap-toe.

-Pufer

[Mad Hatter]

Yo Pufer, what's your take on getting Vibram rubber soles added to the soles of AEs? I do it for all of mine, it costs like 30 bucks and takes forever to wear out. I don't get why anyone wouldn't.

-Mad Hatter

[chrisbru]

Yo Pufer, what's your take on getting Vibram rubber soles added to the soles of AEs? I do it for all of mine, it costs like 30 bucks and takes forever to wear out. I don't get why anyone wouldn't.

-Mad Hatter

No Pufer but... Rubber soles are less formal. I've never seen Vibram rubber soles, but if you're ever in a situation where someone may see the soles of your shoes and could tell, then it might be a problem.

[Mad Hatter]

Yo Pufer, what's your take on getting Vibram rubber soles added to the soles of AEs? I do it for all of mine, it costs like 30 bucks and takes forever to wear out. I don't get why anyone wouldn't.

-Mad Hatter

No Pufer but... Rubber soles are less formal. I've never seen Vibram rubber soles, but if you're ever in a situation where someone may see the soles of your shoes and could tell, then it might be a problem.

You can still see the leather on the "middle" of the bottom, like where the "Allen Edmonds" is written, if that makes a difference. And they add them in a way that you can't tell by looking at the sides, by filing it down using this machine they have. Added caveat: I'm pretty sure that once you do this, you can no longer send it in to AE to have them resole the shoe. Not a problem for me, my guy is both better and cheaper. Here are pics of the bottom/sides:



-Mad Hatter

[LeDique]

AE sells some shoes like that with the "tape sole" option. Don't remember if it costs extra or anything off the top of my head. I think it looks weird from the bottom but I understand why you'd do it.

[redline380]

good question for you shoe experts. technically, I have a condition called Morton's syndrome, which means my second toe is longer than my big toe on both feet. this can lead to very uncomfortable toes sometimes and i would like to know how to address this problem. I HATE square-toed shoes. Personally, I think they look hideous and much prefer a more traditional style. However, the square-style is obviously much more comfortable on my second toe. and of course, money is a factor. for measurement's sake, i'd estimate my second toe to be about half an inch longer than my big toe

[Mad Hatter]

good question for you shoe experts. technically, I have a condition called Morton's syndrome, which means my second toe is longer than my big toe on both feet. this can lead to very uncomfortable toes sometimes and i would like to know how to address this problem. I HATE square-toed shoes. Personally, I think they look hideous and much prefer a more traditional style. However, the square-style is obviously much more comfortable on my second toe. and of course, money is a factor. for measurement's sake, i'd estimate my second toe to be about half an inch longer than my big toe

I think you're just gonna have to go to the store, try some stuff on, and see what works/hurts and what doesn't.

[RodneyRuxin]

good question for you shoe experts. technically, I have a condition called Morton's syndrome, which means my second toe is longer than my big toe on both feet. this can lead to very uncomfortable toes sometimes and i would like to know how to address this problem. I HATE square-toed shoes. Personally, I think they look hideous and much prefer a more traditional style. However, the square-style is obviously much more comfortable on my second toe. and of course, money is a factor. for measurement's sake, i'd estimate my second toe to be about half an inch longer than my big toe

1/2in isn't bad. And Morton's isn't that rare. Just buy a size up.

[Flips88]

So I basically can only find like 4 kinds of dress shoes in my size so which should i get for the summer when i have money to buy them:
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[LeDique]

Well 1-3 are nope nope nope nope nope nope. How big is your foot that you only found 4 options?

[Flips88]

Well 1-3 are nope nope nope nope nope nope. How big is your foot that you only found 4 options?

18

[RodneyRuxin]

Well 1-3 are nope nope nope nope nope nope. How big is your foot that you only found 4 options?

18

last one if i had to choose out of the 4

[Mad Hatter]

Well 1-3 are nope nope nope nope nope nope. How big is your foot that you only found 4 options?

18

http://www.2bigfeet.com/ae_5615.php

Also, places like Macy's and Nordstrom will get you a few pairs to try if you call them up and give them a couple days.

[Flips88]

Well 1-3 are nope nope nope nope nope nope. How big is your foot that you only found 4 options?

18

http://www.2bigfeet.com/ae_5615.php

Also, places like Macy's and Nordstrom will get you a few pairs to try if you call them up and give them a couple days.

Good find. Now I just gotta debate whether I wanna drop $400 on a pair of shoes

ETA: and I usually get basketball shoes and running shoes at Nordstrom Rack for cheap, but their dress shoes always seem to only go up to 17.

[redline380]

Well 1-3 are nope nope nope nope nope nope. How big is your foot that you only found 4 options?

18

holy balls. that puts my morton's syndrome issue to shame. but yeah, i'd pick 4. no question

edit: for some reason i've always found shoes that look fashionable on a golf course will look fashionable everywhere, obviously without the spikes. kind of lame, i know, but its what i go on. note that this doesn't hold true for multi-colored shoes, just single colored ones

[Pufer]

Yo Pufer, what's your take on getting Vibram rubber soles added to the soles of AEs? I do it for all of mine, it costs like 30 bucks and takes forever to wear out. I don't get why anyone wouldn't.

-Mad Hatter

I have no issue with it, so long as your cobbler is good enough to not significantly increase the thickness of your sole while doing it (which it looks like (s)he is by that picture). The idea is that you should look like you have leather soles when looking at your shoe from the top or side. If the soles aren't actually leather but are rubber, polyurethane, cork, or whatever, nobody cares.

good question for you shoe experts. technically, I have a condition called Morton's syndrome, which means my second toe is longer than my big toe on both feet. this can lead to very uncomfortable toes sometimes and i would like to know how to address this problem. I HATE square-toed shoes. Personally, I think they look hideous and much prefer a more traditional style. However, the square-style is obviously much more comfortable on my second toe. and of course, money is a factor. for measurement's sake, i'd estimate my second toe to be about half an inch longer than my big toe

Evidently, I also have Morton's syndrome (how does this qualify as a syndrome? I don't think I've ever even noticed the fact that my second toes are longer than my big toes until I just looked). However, I have no idea how squared-toe shoes would help you. I just checked out a few of my pointier shoes and the point pretty well lines up with my second toe, which is pretty much exactly what I reckoned would happen. Thus, if anything, I would think that a pointed shoe would be vastly preferable for folks with Morton's syndrome if the issue is your toe rubbing against the front of your shoe.

That said, I don't doubt that you actually have a problem. I would guess that it is more an issue of toe-crowding (a more common complaint with pointier shoes that is generally absent with square-toes), which is somehow fucking up your second toe more than your other toes. In any event, the answer is to try on more shoes and not purchase any that are uncomfortable. If that means going up half a size (I wear an 11.5 in pretty much every sort of casual shoe, but find a 12 is more comfortable in some brands of dress shoe) or finding someplace where you can try on different width shoes to alleviate any crowding, so be it.

Of course, if at the end of the day you have a choice between being in constant, agonizing pain and having to go with a less-stylish shoe, choose the less-stylish shoe. You're not impressing anyone with a grimace on your face every time you stand up.

-Pufer

[redline380]

good question for you shoe experts. technically, I have a condition called Morton's syndrome, which means my second toe is longer than my big toe on both feet. this can lead to very uncomfortable toes sometimes and i would like to know how to address this problem. I HATE square-toed shoes. Personally, I think they look hideous and much prefer a more traditional style. However, the square-style is obviously much more comfortable on my second toe. and of course, money is a factor. for measurement's sake, i'd estimate my second toe to be about half an inch longer than my big toe

Evidently, I also have Morton's syndrome (how does this qualify as a syndrome? I don't think I've ever even noticed the fact that my second toes are longer than my big toes until I just looked). However, I have no idea how squared-toe shoes would help you. I just checked out a few of my pointier shoes and the point pretty well lines up with my second toe, which is pretty much exactly what I reckoned would happen. Thus, if anything, I would think that a pointed shoe would be vastly preferable for folks with Morton's syndrome if the issue is your toe rubbing against the front of your shoe.

That said, I don't doubt that you actually have a problem. I would guess that it is more an issue of toe-crowding (a more common complaint with pointier shoes that is generally absent with square-toes), which is somehow fucking up your second toe more than your other toes. In any event, the answer is to try on more shoes and not purchase any that are uncomfortable. If that means going up half a size (I wear an 11.5 in pretty much every sort of casual shoe, but find a 12 is more comfortable in some brands of dress shoe) or finding someplace where you can try on different width shoes to alleviate any crowding, so be it.

Of course, if at the end of the day you have a choice between being in constant, agonizing pain and having to go with a less-stylish shoe, choose the less-stylish shoe. You're not impressing anyone with a grimace on your face every time you stand up.

-Pufer

no need to tip-toe (no pun intended) around my "feelings". I had no idea that having a second toe longer than your big toe was a "syndrome" until i googled it. i normally wear comforatable shoes which are larger than i need anyways, about a size 11, when i'm a 10 or 10.5. but my dress shoes offer discomfort. i really became aware of the toe issue about ten years ago when i was wearing a hand-me-down set of golf shoes which were too small. i ended up loosing the toenail of my second toe on my left foot from wearing those shoes for a round of golf and I want to avoid that in dress shoes. It is currently not an issue as I only wear dress shoes maybe once a year, but i anticipate it being a problem in the future.