SEO Corporate Law Forum

[uvalaw4l]

I don't know a single firm that pays 1Ls less. Not saying that it doesn't happen; but every biglaw firm I know of pays 1Ls and 2Ls the same.

Didn't necessarily mean biglaw.

Very, very few firms outside of biglaw have the resources to waste on 1L summers. Maybe boutiques, but the ones doing well enough to hire 1Ls still shell out the same pay.

I work at a mid-size in a major market that pays 1Ls marginally less, so when I made that statement, it was based on my own personal knowledge of a situation where that is the case. But yes, you are right that the majority of firms that hire 1Ls pay the same.

Is your firm hiring 1Ls this next year?

[gahhhhhhhhhh]

Is your firm hiring 1Ls this next year?

To my knowledge, yes. But I'm not a part of those decisions, so I can't say for sure. The summer class is traditionally very, very small.

[uvalaw4l]

Is your firm hiring 1Ls this next year?

To my knowledge, yes. But I'm not a part of those decisions, so I can't say for sure. The summer class is traditionally very, very small.

We usually have 20-30 1Ls. I'm not sure if we're hiring either. I guess I should be happy though - less of a chance of losing my job!

[gahhhhhhhhhh]

Is your firm hiring 1Ls this next year?

To my knowledge, yes. But I'm not a part of those decisions, so I can't say for sure. The summer class is traditionally very, very small.

We usually have 20-30 1Ls. I'm not sure if we're hiring either. I guess I should be happy though - less of a chance of losing my job!

okay! Also, do you feel like the summers get a nice bite out of the good work? I'm not an attorney, but that is definitely what I have observed...junior associates getting pulled off projects so that summers can "play attorney."

[uvalaw4l]

Is your firm hiring 1Ls this next year?

To my knowledge, yes. But I'm not a part of those decisions, so I can't say for sure. The summer class is traditionally very, very small.

We usually have 20-30 1Ls. I'm not sure if we're hiring either. I guess I should be happy though - less of a chance of losing my job!

okay! Also, do you feel like the summers get a nice bite out of the good work? I'm not an attorney, but that is definitely what I have observed...junior associates getting pulled off projects so that summers can "play attorney."

I know the attorneys felt that way when I was a summer (of course they only told us this later) - because litigation is slower during a good economy. There wasn't enough to go around already back then. It might be different this summer as litigation picks up. It will be bare bones in corporate though.

[gahhhhhhhhhh]

I know the attorneys felt that way when I was a summer (of course they only told us this later) - because litigation is slower during a good economy. There wasn't enough to go around already back then. It might be different this summer as litigation picks up. It will be bare bones in corporate though.

Yes, and any summer who prefs real estate or any MBS-practice is basically brain dead. I bet you bankruptcy will be "oversubscribed."

[on_ne_sait_jamais]

I sort of thought that G'town was a possibility, but I definitely think that NU is not. NU-->NYC (after law school) is less common than GULC--->NYC. U of C would obviously give anyone a much better chance, if we are looking at things in terms of prestige.

You have aboslutely no idea what you're talking... none whatsoever. Can I be any more clear??? You have blatently lied when it comes to your knowledge of NU, and GULC and their respective placement rates in NYC, and NU's ability to place students in SEO. You should not be allowed to post. Do a little bit of research and then come back.

If this was directed at me, let me go ahead and clock the tea. First off, slow your role -- No need to come on here insulting me or anyone for simply stating their opinion. Second, if I was wrong, feel free to correct me. Don't personally attack me for my supposed and apparent lack of knowledge--tell us all what the real deal us. Third, last time I checked, you are not a moderator, and therefore are not in the least bit qualified to tell me or even suggest that I shouldn't be allowed to post. Fourth, and to be clear I am going to bold this, don't ever come at me or any other poster with such brash and abrasive language. Done.

Just because you have the right to be stupid and inept, doesn't mean that you should...

[gahhhhhhhhhh]

I sort of thought that G'town was a possibility, but I definitely think that NU is not. NU-->NYC (after law school) is less common than GULC--->NYC. U of C would obviously give anyone a much better chance, if we are looking at things in terms of prestige.

You have aboslutely no idea what you're talking... none whatsoever. Can I be any more clear??? You have blatently lied when it comes to your knowledge of NU, and GULC and their respective placement rates in NYC, and NU's ability to place students in SEO. You should not be allowed to post. Do a little bit of research and then come back.

If this was directed at me, let me go ahead and clock the tea. First off, slow your role -- No need to come on here insulting me or anyone for simply stating their opinion. Second, if I was wrong, feel free to correct me. Don't personally attack me for my supposed and apparent lack of knowledge--tell us all what the real deal us. Third, last time I checked, you are not a moderator, and therefore are not in the least bit qualified to tell me or even suggest that I shouldn't be allowed to post. Fourth, and to be clear I am going to bold this, don't ever come at me or any other poster with such brash and abrasive language. Done.

Just because you have the right to be stupid and inept, doesn't mean that you should...

It has nothing to do with stupidity. I'm still waiting for you to correct the misinformation in my post. Oh wait, that might actually lead somewhere productive.

[on_ne_sait_jamais]

you know where you went wrong in your post, the onus is on you to correct it. I merely feel obliged to point out a charlatan when I see one.

[gahhhhhhhhhh]

you know where you went wrong in your post, the onus is on you to correct it. I merely feel obliged to point out a charlatan when I see one.

What are you now, my school teacher?

[BendAndSnap]

any similar programs for non-urms?

[on_ne_sait_jamais]

any similar programs for non-urms?

Yes, hang out at the nicest country club in your city/town, cozy up to some partners at big law, and shmooze your way into an internship. That or have the moms or pops call in a favor.

[legends159]

any similar programs for non-urms?

Yes, hang out at the nicest country club in your city/town, cozy up to some partners at big law, and shmooze your way into an internship. That or have the moms or pops call in a favor.

that's a bit unfair. Plenty of caucasians are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouths.

[dailygrind]

any similar programs for non-urms?

Yes, hang out at the nicest country club in your city/town, cozy up to some partners at big law, and shmooze your way into an internship. That or have the moms or pops call in a favor.

that's a bit unfair. Plenty of caucasians are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouths.

And plenty of minorities are not going to get SEO.

[uvalaw4l]

any similar programs for non-urms?

Yes, hang out at the nicest country club in your city/town, cozy up to some partners at big law, and shmooze your way into an internship. That or have the moms or pops call in a favor.

that's a bit unfair. Plenty of caucasians are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouths.

a bit? jeez jamais.

[legends159]

any similar programs for non-urms?

Yes, hang out at the nicest country club in your city/town, cozy up to some partners at big law, and shmooze your way into an internship. That or have the moms or pops call in a favor.

that's a bit unfair. Plenty of caucasians are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouths.

Yes....that's true. but by virtue of just being white, you have advantages that we, as ppl of color, do not. Like Cris Rock said, a poor white man wouldn't trade places with HIM...and HE'S rich.

White ppl know deep inside, that on their worst day in life, they still wouldn't trade places with a Black man. But they still want to pretend as though our skin color is not a disadvantage.

As was said above...your daddy knows some lawyers, talk to THEM. You need SEO like Diddy needs another Rolex.

oh boy...

[on_ne_sait_jamais]

any similar programs for non-urms?

Yes, hang out at the nicest country club in your city/town, cozy up to some partners at big law, and shmooze your way into an internship. That or have the moms or pops call in a favor.

that's a bit unfair. Plenty of caucasians are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouths.

You know that I am not implying at all that not a lot of white people are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouth. What I am implying is that most partners at big prestigious law firms are white, and most of them are members at the best country clubs, private clubs etc. in their respective cities/towns. Most of these clubs have little to no minority membership, so in order to make a connection and get a favor as a 0L you would not only have to be white, but also rich and have a connection to these people through something such as a country club. Since by virute of being black, one would be signficantly less likely to make the type of connection that is needed to get one's foot in the door at a prestigious big law firm... how is this remedied?? voila SEO

[uvalaw4l]

any similar programs for non-urms?

Yes, hang out at the nicest country club in your city/town, cozy up to some partners at big law, and shmooze your way into an internship. That or have the moms or pops call in a favor.

that's a bit unfair. Plenty of caucasians are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouths.

Yes....that's true. but by virtue of just being white, you have advantages that we, as ppl of color, do not. Like Cris Rock said, a poor white man wouldn't trade places with HIM...and HE'S rich.

White ppl know deep inside, that on their worst day in life, they still wouldn't trade places with a Black man. But they still want to pretend as though our skin color is not a disadvantage.

As was said above...your daddy knows some lawyers, talk to THEM. You need SEO like Diddy needs another Rolex.

[uvalaw4l]

any similar programs for non-urms?

Yes, hang out at the nicest country club in your city/town, cozy up to some partners at big law, and shmooze your way into an internship. That or have the moms or pops call in a favor.

that's a bit unfair. Plenty of caucasians are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouths.

You know that I am not implying at all that not a lot of white people are born w/o a silver spoon in their mouth. What I am implying is that most partners at big prestigious law firms are white, and most of them are members at the best country clubs, private clubs etc. in their respective cities/towns. Most of these clubs have little to no minority membership, so in order to make a connection and get a favor as a 0L you would not only have to be white, but also rich and have a connection to these people through something such as a country club. Since by virute of being black, one would be signficantly less likely to make the type of connection that is needed to get one's foot in the door at a prestigious big law firm... how is this remedied?? voila SEO

Seriously, some of you need to get that huge chip off of your shoulder. You are precisely the type of person that benefits from the AA boost only to completely and totally fuck yourself over when you bring this "us against them" mentality to work. I think it prudent to be aware that discrimination and unfairness exist - so that you know what you're up against and recognize it if and when you see it - but you guys are taking it a bit far.

It's like this other young black associate here with me at work. She's always complaining about not getting work from partners because she doesn't "have anything in common with those old white guys." Well guess what, neither do 20-something white guys - they don't all hunt, golf and fish. Of course, it's true that people are most comfortable around those most like them, and therefore it's not completely uncommon for a white partner, though he has little in common with the young white male associate, to feel more comfortable around him than a black associate; however most firms are taking affirmative steps to counter that type of stuff. So between me, a young black girl, and the only other first year associate in my group, a young white male, I'm actually the one getting more work right now. And the black female mentioned above is sitting around, twiddling her thumbs, confused as to why she doesn't get more work. I guarantee she'll have left the firm in 2-3 years (she's already hinted at this), full convinced that black females just can't make it in a white man's world, and completely screwing up the whole premise of AA - to get more black lawyers in law firms.

[on_ne_sait_jamais]

Seriously, some of you need to get that huge chip off of your shoulder. You are precisely the type of person that benefits from the AA boost only to completely and totally fuck yourself over when you bring this "us against them" mentality to work.

First of all... what do you mean some of "you" a la.. what do you mean "you people"???
Secondly, I do not have a me against them type of mentality at all. To be honest, I'm a member at an all white private club. (one of about 5 non wasp members). I play squash, paddle, take steams, all with some of the most yuppie and waspy kids that you can imagine. Now granted I've known them my entire life and they are my best friends in the world, but they're still Wasp as all hell. I've been approached by partners and former partners at 2 NLJ250 firms in my city and been offered well paying internships this summer. I turned them down b/c I don't want to take any favors and I don't want to feel obligated to work for a firm in my home town. But the point is that even though I have this in. the only other people (with the exception of 1 or two others) in my city who have this type of in are obviously white. I don't hold it against them, b/c I've benefited from their relationships greatly. You cannot argue with fact. FACT #1 When you are rich and powerful you get the hook up and you can call in favors, and your friend/dad/mom's friend etc can get you an internship at a big law firm if you are qualified and you so wish. FACT #2 Most rich and powerful people are white FACT #3 URM's and more specifically AA people are disproportionally poorer than whites… This isn't an us against them type of mentality just purely fact. Until Black people are more appropriately represented in the higher echelon of society, it will be difficult for us to try and get the hookups that are available to all of those (white black red or green) in higher echelons of society.

[uvalaw4l]

First of all... what do you mean some of "you" a la.. what do you mean "you people"???

I didn't say "you people" I said "some of you" - how else am I supposed to phrase that? In case you're not aware, I'm half-black.

Secondly, I do not have a me against them type of mentality at all. To be honest, I'm a member at an all white private club. (one of about 5 non wasp members). I play squash, paddle, take steams, all with some of the most yuppie and waspy kids that you can imagine. Now granted I've known them my entire life and they are my best friends in the world, but they're still Wasp as all hell. I've been approached by partners and former partners at 2 NLJ250 firms in my city and been offered well paying internships this summer. I turned them down b/c I don't want to take any favors and I don't want to feel obligated to work for a firm in my home town. But the point is that even though I have this in. the only other people (with the exception of 1 or two others) in my city who have this type of in are obviously white. I don't hold it against them, b/c I've benefited from their relationships greatly. You cannot argue with fact. FACT #1 When you are rich and powerful you get the hook up and you can call in favors, and your friend/dad/mom's friend etc can get you an internship at a big law firm if you are qualified and you so wish. FACT #2 Most rich and powerful people are white FACT #3 URM's and more specifically AA people are disproportionally poorer than whites… This isn't an us against them type of mentality just purely fact. Until Black people are more appropriately represented in the higher echelon of society, it will be difficult for us to try and get the hookups that are available to all of those (white black red or green) in higher echelons of society.

And? So some whites have access; plenty don't. Whites may not get a push back like blacks do, but you're crazy if you think all whites get a leg up. Maybe you just haven't been exposed to the non-rich white population like I have, but you're unnecessarily and unfairly lumping people together based on their race and nothing else when you tell someone who's non-URM to inquire with mom & dad or the local country club.

I'm starting to think this is flame based on your "you people" comment.

[on_ne_sait_jamais]

I'm being 100% serious, no Flame. And I never said nor implied that all white people have this advantage. The only people who have this advantage are people who are ridiculously wealthy and ridiculously well connected. Once again, for the most part in this country the overwhelming majority of the uber rich are white, and URM's are disproportionally underrepresented in the circles of the uber rich. Seriously go to any elite country club in the country, and tell me if 13% of it's members are AA. Go to any top notch suburban Private/Day school such as Cincinnati Country Day with minimum tuition of 17,000 (non boarding) and tell me if mexicans are well represented. They're not, and it's places like this where you make the connections, call it old boys call it whatever you like. I personally like it, b/c I benefit from it. But I also know that if you're not rich, and if you're not white, or incredibly lucky like myself, you're wayyyyy less likely to be in that position. This is just the way things are, and will obviously take a long time to change.

[BendAndSnap]

And? So some whites have access; plenty don't. Whites may not get a push back like blacks do, but you're crazy if you think all whites get a leg up. Maybe you just haven't been exposed to the non-rich white population like I have, but you're unnecessarily and unfairly lumping people together based on their race and nothing else when you tell someone who's non-URM to inquire with mom & dad or the local country club.

this is exactly my point, and reason for asking if similar jumpstart programs existed for the population at large. i obviously understand the point of SEO and fully support it. calm down on ne sait jamais, i'm just wondering if there's some established program besides SEO and besides your suggested "country club" route - some of us don't qualify for either (duh)

[BananaHammock]

I personally like it, b/c I benefit from it.

Sorry on_ne_sait_jamais. It's not a societal problem, its a cultural problem. You think that society is holding you back when in reality it is really your culture holding you back. Look to asians who migrate here with less money, no jobs, and virtually no careers. Asians have a much stronger culture deeply rooted in the value of family and education.

I will quote a fairly successful black man -- you may have heard of him. "Too many fathers are M.I.A, too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes,” Mr. Obama said, to a chorus of approving murmurs from the audience. “They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”

In your some 450 posts, you never acknowledge that it may in fact be partially the fault of the black culture/society that they are unsuccessful or at least not as advanced. As they say in AA, acceptance of the problem is the first key to success and if you're only going to pick and choose some sources of the problems and not acknowledge all the major contributors, you'll never advance.

Society gives you plenty of breaks (AA. specific scholarships, URM status -- good lord can this be annoying, AA for jobs/college). Now seize the carp.

P.S. I used AA in three different contexts, see if you can find them all!

[kurla88]

...So, wars. Other than that, this thread is pretty helpful! Thanks, folks.

Some more questions, if anyone has answers:

Since part of it is classes, I'm assuming interns get to know each other a bit? How much? Do they have multiple interns at each firm? I am afraid of being all by my lonesome in NYC for the first time. :O If I'm lucky enough to get it...