Military Law

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howell

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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone have experience with (or know someone who does) balancing a BigLaw litigator lifestyle with Military Reservist duties, IMA or otherwise? Extra credit if your experience is/was with the USAF. EXTRA extra credit if your IMA experience was with something other than JAG.

There are likely going to be very few data points on this. I have spoken to a couple people recently who went different ways on this. I think it will be incredibly dependent on your specific firm and how you are able to manage your workload. You might have already ruled this out, but a Traditional Reservist role might work better with your practice/life situation.

I'd be happy to share the anonymized version of the stories I've heard if you want to PM me.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Cross-posting this to the Military Law thread in the hopes that someone here will have relevant experience:

Does anyone have experience with (or know someone who does) balancing a BigLaw litigator lifestyle with Military Reservist duties, IMA or otherwise? Extra credit if your experience is/was with the USAF. EXTRA extra credit if your IMA experience was with something other than JAG.

My situation: current stub-year BigLaw litigator, previous USAF O-3 and Engineer. I'm considering picking up a local IMA position that just opened up for engineers, though I am also thinking about looking at local JAG IMA positions because there are a couple of those available as well. Even though it's technically illegal to discriminate against someone based on military status, the reality of this career field is that any time spent away from the job can be taken as not being dedicated to the job/firm/clients/etc. My concerns and questions:

  • How receptive is your firm to reservists?
  • Did your firm prorate hours based on reserve/IMA requirements?
  • How receptive were your coworkers?
  • Was it worth it / would you do it again?
  • How receptive was your command to a demanding job like BigLaw?
Any and all information would be greatly appreciated - I have tried searching the forums for info, but there's really not much out there specific to IMA and BigLaw.

Thanks!


No idea how the engineer career field works but the Reserve AF JAG world is not something you can just opt into at a local/preferable base of your choosing. Current manning levels in the reserves are close to or even over 100% -- as a result, they have dramatically cut back at hiring "direct" reservists in favor of JAGs coming off of active duty. I think they hired one person last year that was coming in as a civilian (given your prior O status, you might be in a slightly different bucket, but in that I assume you resigned your commission when you separated, you may effectively be in the same applicant status).

Assignments are centrally run by a JAG office out of the Pentagon - just because a nearby office may have an opening is absolutely no guarantee of anything. About one third of the reserve force gets reassigned each year and expected vacancies are going to have projected backfills way in advance. There is also the standard "needs of the Air Force" in which they may want you in whatever other office for any number of reasons. And even if you happened to fall into a preferred office, you are only there for 2-3 years before a new assignment. It is not like the Guard where you might be able to homestead for an extended period of time.

As Howell noted, a Cat A/Traditional Reservist role might afford you more stability assuming there is a nearby reserve wing. There are way less Cat A slots however due to the fact that each wing usually just needs a DSJA and SJA - it is not like being a Cat B at a large office in which there could be 10+ reserve JAG slots. There is also the ANG. But again, that all assumes selection goes your way which is not a foregone conclusion even with your prior O time.

I can tell you that managing my work at a higher tempo DOJ section was difficult when balancing life as an IMA. My DOJ leadership was supportive but much like BigLaw, time out of the office is time out of the office and opportunities will be missed. Consider also you will be taking off 8+ weeks to attend JASOC and then you will have all sorts of other reserve in-person course requirements on any given year.

I also don't think the Reserve leadership will care that you are at in BigLaw - I have never gotten the sense that there is any sort of consideration for reservists in demanding civilian jobs compared to those people that seem to just to volunteer for MPA tour after MPA tour each year because they don't have a civilian job. It is only what you give to the reserves that matters to them.

Just some things to consider. Good luck.

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Re: Military Law

Postby zcdclawyer » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Going to Marine OCS for staff judge advocate January 5! Anyone else going?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:53 am

zcdclawyer wrote:Going to Marine OCS for staff judge advocate January 5! Anyone else going?
Do you mind sharing your PFT? And overall stats? I've heard the OCS selection board is a bit more lenient when it comes to law candidates' PFT and are willing to take a flyer on high 240s and low 250s.

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Re: Military Law

Postby zcdclawyer » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
zcdclawyer wrote:Going to Marine OCS for staff judge advocate January 5! Anyone else going?
Do you mind sharing your PFT? And overall stats? I've heard the OCS selection board is a bit more lenient when it comes to law candidates' PFT and are willing to take a flyer on high 240s and low 250s.


I ran a 285 PFT (20 pull-ups, 114 crunches, 18:39 3-mile run) with average academic credentials, and I've already passed the bar. I was preselected for the June OCC class (was aiming for January). I volunteered to be on standby for the January class in case another lawyer dropped, and that's exactly what happened, so I'm going in January instead of June.

My OSO said that the average PFT score for this OCS class was very high, and that future candidates should be striving for the 290s/300 to be competitive. There is very little emphasis on academics for the Marines, so long as you meet the minimum gpa standards. They look for the well-rounded person with leadership potential and a huge emphasis on your PFT score.

However, I've been told that the board doesn't non-select lawyer candidates who meet the minimum requirements. They are either selected or pre-selected. How true that is, I'm not sure. I was surprised not to be selected for the class I applied for with a good PFT score, but there may have been other factors that I'm not aware of.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:59 am

zcdclawyer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
zcdclawyer wrote:Going to Marine OCS for staff judge advocate January 5! Anyone else going?
Do you mind sharing your PFT? And overall stats? I've heard the OCS selection board is a bit more lenient when it comes to law candidates' PFT and are willing to take a flyer on high 240s and low 250s.


I ran a 285 PFT (20 pull-ups, 114 crunches, 18:39 3-mile run) with average academic credentials, and I've already passed the bar. I was preselected for the June OCC class (was aiming for January). I volunteered to be on standby for the January class in case another lawyer dropped, and that's exactly what happened, so I'm going in January instead of June.

My OSO said that the average PFT score for this OCS class was very high, and that future candidates should be striving for the 290s/300 to be competitive. There is very little emphasis on academics for the Marines, so long as you meet the minimum gpa standards. They look for the well-rounded person with leadership potential and a huge emphasis on your PFT score.

However, I've been told that the board doesn't non-select lawyer candidates who meet the minimum requirements. They are either selected or pre-selected. How true that is, I'm not sure. I was surprised not to be selected for the class I applied for with a good PFT score, but there may have been other factors that I'm not aware of.



have fun. OCS is hell. was not told that the board always selects JAG candidates. do not think that is true; however, not long ago they were looking desperately for lawyers. i do think they filled a lot of slots and was told the new quotas for non-student program (already licensed lawyers) for next few FYs are pretty low now so spots are more competitive. dunno if the OSO was lying ...

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:31 pm

How have you seen new JAs make themselves valuable to their first legal office? Any helpful anecdotes?

What kinds of things should new JAs look to accomplish in the first 3-6 months on the job that will help ensure their first assignment goes well?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:38 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
1) COT is now TFOT


I wouldn't let this influence your decision. It's still 5 weeks and it is still the Air Force. It is not like it went from Salute School to Marine OCS.


The 5 week course is being phased out and replaced with one 8 week course. By 2020, all students will be going through the 8 week TFOT with the exception of neurosurgeons and the like who will still go through RCOT. Below is a press release from the OTS website. Although I agree that nobody should let this dissuade them from becoming an Air Force JAG. If an additional three weeks is going to be the deciding factor, you probably shouldn't be taking the oath and committing the next 4 years of your life to serving.

https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/News/D ... -officers/

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Re: Military Law

Postby TheProsecutor » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:35 pm

In the air force reserve, they have a program for experienced attorneys where you can become a JAG even if you've never been in the military or on active duty before. Does anyone have any idea what they are looking for in that program or if it is difficult for experienced lawyers to get accepted?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Backload » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How have you seen new JAs make themselves valuable to their first legal office? Any helpful anecdotes?

What kinds of things should new JAs look to accomplish in the first 3-6 months on the job that will help ensure their first assignment goes well?


It depends on the timing of JAG school. You could spend 2 months at your base then go to JASOC or you could go straight from training to JASOC then base.

Either way, you will be valuable. It will depend on your base, their manning, and your specific job. It’s hard to give you exactly what you do because every base will be different. Everyone will do legal assistance, wills, and courts. But the amount of courts greatly depends on the base. Some new JAGs can be thrown into courts early and often dependingg on the Justice tempo at their bases, while others struggle to even get one court in their first year.

Outside of that, most new jags go into the role of chief of legal assistance first. Again this might not be true based on your base.

You will be valuable no matter what. I would say if you recognize you are at a slow justice base then really put yourself out there for taking on a lot of the new cases that do come to your base. Also look to opportunities at other bases with high Justice. Just be open to your sja about your priorities for your first assignment. They will certainly tell you the priorities they have for you.

Talk with JAX about the type of job. If you want all Justice, tell them and hopefully they will put you at one of the high tempo bases

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:40 pm

Backload wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How have you seen new JAs make themselves valuable to their first legal office? Any helpful anecdotes?

What kinds of things should new JAs look to accomplish in the first 3-6 months on the job that will help ensure their first assignment goes well?


It depends on the timing of JAG school. You could spend 2 months at your base then go to JASOC or you could go straight from training to JASOC then base.

Either way, you will be valuable. It will depend on your base, their manning, and your specific job. It’s hard to give you exactly what you do because every base will be different. Everyone will do legal assistance, wills, and courts. But the amount of courts greatly depends on the base. Some new JAGs can be thrown into courts early and often dependingg on the Justice tempo at their bases, while others struggle to even get one court in their first year.

Outside of that, most new jags go into the role of chief of legal assistance first. Again this might not be true based on your base.

You will be valuable no matter what. I would say if you recognize you are at a slow justice base then really put yourself out there for taking on a lot of the new cases that do come to your base. Also look to opportunities at other bases with high Justice. Just be open to your sja about your priorities for your first assignment. They will certainly tell you the priorities they have for you.

Talk with JAX about the type of job. If you want all Justice, tell them and hopefully they will put you at one of the high tempo bases


From the purely JAG perspective, this is good advice. Really anything that would apply to an entry level attorney applies to your question. Work hard, don't suck, and recognize you are the low person on the totem pole. No one cares what you did before becoming a JAG. Be quiet, listen, and learn. It is a very small world, reputations matter, and there are no changing first impressions.

I would also try to learn as much as you can to develop as an officer. If you are coming in as an AF JAG through COT, you are not going to learn a thing about officership. Apply yourself to be the leader the bars on your chest/shoulder/collar indicate you are - that is far easier said than done. Make sure you are squared away with dress and appearance & customs and courtesies. Between your legal officer enlisted leadership and the first sergeants you will get to interact with when in military justice, you will be able to learn volumes from your SNCOs. Make an effort to learn from them. Work hard to mentor, develop, and look out for the NCOs and junior Es that will be under you in your first section -- volunteer to write the first drafts of their EPRs and quarterly/annual award packages. It is a skill that will serve you will down the road.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:43 pm

TheProsecutor wrote:In the air force reserve, they have a program for experienced attorneys where you can become a JAG even if you've never been in the military or on active duty before. Does anyone have any idea what they are looking for in that program or if it is difficult for experienced lawyers to get accepted?


Yes, you can receive a direct reserve commission into the Air Force JAGC. It is extremely, extremely competitive and difficult for pure civilians coming in without any prior military experience.

https://afreserve.com/JAG/attorney

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:56 am

What is the process of becoming “trial certified” as a JAG?

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:What is the process of becoming “trial certified” as a JAG?


For the Air Force:

You must challenge a sitting Senior Trial Counsel to Kumite in the well of a courtroom, with the fight officiated by a military judge. If you prevail, you earn your certification as a trial counsel.

Alternatively, para 6.7 & 6.8 of AFI 51-101 lays out the process:

Demonstrate competence to perform the duties of trial and defense counsel, graduate from the Judge Advocate Staff Officer Course (or an equivalent basic judge advocate resident course), and be recommended for certification by his or her supervisory staff judge advocate and a military judge.

Have served as trial counsel or assistant trial counsel on courts-martial. Generally, judge advocates will serve as trial counsel or assistant trial counsel in at least three courts-martial to demonstrate competence in fundamental litigation skills. However, AF/JA may consider judge advocates recommended for certification after serving as counsel in fewer than three courts-martial.


6.8. Supervisory staff judge advocates consider the following factors to determine if certification is warranted:

6.8.1. The quality, complexity, and difficulty of any court-martial experience;

6.8.2. Demonstrated competence in fundamental trial skills, such as case preparation, motion practice, voir dire, opening statement, direct and cross examination, making objections, findings argument, and sentencing argument;

6.8.3. Demonstrated comprehension of fundamental principles of military criminal law and procedure, and the Military Rules of Evidence;

6.8.4. Demonstrated competence in other litigation forums, such as Magistrate’s Court, labor and employment hearings, administrative discharge boards, and pretrial confinement hearings;

6.8.5. Performance in trial advocacy courses, training and workshops, including the Judge Advocate Staff Officer Course, Trial and Defense Advocacy Course or Training by Reservists in Advocacy and Litigation Skills team programs; and

6.8.6. Demonstrated maturity and professionalism of the judge advocate throughout the entire court-martial process, to include an ability to team with paralegals and to work effectively with defense counsel.

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Re: Military Law

Postby keong678 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:00 pm

quick question on Army JAG selects. The offer letter said 2020 January class was the earliest class available. Would that mean for DCC to start in 2020 January? or UVA class? I was hoping it to be October 2019.. at the latest.

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Re: Military Law

Postby shoppylaw » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Long time lurker, first time poster. I've skimmed as much of this thread as I can and didn't see these questions asked--apologies if they're reposts.

I just selected an Army internship for my 2L summer, and I spent my 1L summer externing with the AF (loved it!). I understand that having JAG internship experience is critical for any JAG application, but I'm wondering if anyone has more specific information about the likelihood of becoming an actual JAG. Some of my friends interning in BigLaw this summer are essentially guaranteed a job offer after graduation (assuming they don't screw up); is JAG similar at all?

Second question for anyone with ascension experience: do JAG-selects qualify for medical waivers differently from other MOS's? I have an eyesight issue that will be DQ but does not affect my ability to deploy or work as a JAG, though it would affect my ability to be an infantry officer (for example). I believe I'm a strong candidate for a JAG position, but am really worried that I'm spending both summers working for the military only to be medically DQ'd.

Thanks for the help ya'll, and congrats to the recent selects!

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Re: Military Law

Postby Conster31 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:03 am

keong678 wrote:quick question on Army JAG selects. The offer letter said 2020 January class was the earliest class available. Would that mean for DCC to start in 2020 January? or UVA class? I was hoping it to be October 2019.. at the latest.


wondering the same thing...

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:31 am

Conster31 wrote:
keong678 wrote:quick question on Army JAG selects. The offer letter said 2020 January class was the earliest class available. Would that mean for DCC to start in 2020 January? or UVA class? I was hoping it to be October 2019.. at the latest.


wondering the same thing...


Rumor has it that the May 2019 class and the October 2019 class have been consolidated into an August 2019 class. Unless your state expeditiously processes results, January 2020 would seem to be the default placement. I’d check in with JARO to be a 100% certain, however.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:40 am

shoppylaw wrote:Long time lurker, first time poster. I've skimmed as much of this thread as I can and didn't see these questions asked--apologies if they're reposts.

I just selected an Army internship for my 2L summer, and I spent my 1L summer externing with the AF (loved it!). I understand that having JAG internship experience is critical for any JAG application, but I'm wondering if anyone has more specific information about the likelihood of becoming an actual JAG. Some of my friends interning in BigLaw this summer are essentially guaranteed a job offer after graduation (assuming they don't screw up); is JAG similar at all?


For the AF, a successful internship gives you a big leg up for selection but is not a guarantee - you still have to meet an accessions board which always carries some risk. The advantage interns have is the interviewing SJA can say that they supervised you for 8-10 weeks and can attest to your abilities in XYZ. You are more of a known quantity. That carries more weight that a recommendation based on a 60 minute interview.

shoppylaw wrote:Second question for anyone with ascension experience: do JAG-selects qualify for medical waivers differently from other MOS's? I have an eyesight issue that will be DQ but does not affect my ability to deploy or work as a JAG, though it would affect my ability to be an infantry officer (for example). I believe I'm a strong candidate for a JAG position, but am really worried that I'm spending both summers working for the military only to be medically DQ'd.


I have no idea in respect to the waiver process but is your eye issue anything that can be corrected by LASIK/PRK/etc? If it can, it might be worth addressing now.

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Re: Military Law

Postby mtk123 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:47 pm

Yeah I'd be REALLY curious to know from Electriklemon what happened. I am also a reserve alternate for 2019, and I would love to know how realistic my chances are at this point.

stereoskater wrote:
electriklemon wrote:Also selected as a reserve alternate.

But I think anyone on the reserve alternate list has a good chance!

There are 65 duplicate names for the Primary Active Duty and Primary Reserve selection list; and furthermore, there are 18 people selected for primary Reserves on the Active Duty wait list.

Just hoping those 65 people on the Active Duty primary list all choose active duty to open the Reserve spots! :P


Hey! How did this work out? I was looking at the 2019 list now and there are 82 people on the JAG Reserve and Active Selected lists and there are 45 JAG Reserve Alternates! So I am really hoping some of those 82 choose Active and open up some slots for an Alternate like me!

Any insight into how many Alternates have been moved to Selectees in recent years?!?!

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:15 am

Army AD and Reserves select who would choose AD. Long-time lurker, first-time caller: Graduating this spring and am currently a USMC poolee. Interned with Army. Being fully aware of how different the branches are and overall career/quality of life things, talking to various points of contact, and having combed through hundreds of pages on this thread (thank you!), I’m still weirdly torn (which is insane). Can anyone who made the decision one way or another shed light on what they considered? (One thing tipping the balance slightly for me is age - waited a few years after undergrad to go to law school.)

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Conster31 wrote:
keong678 wrote:quick question on Army JAG selects. The offer letter said 2020 January class was the earliest class available. Would that mean for DCC to start in 2020 January? or UVA class? I was hoping it to be October 2019.. at the latest.


wondering the same thing...


Rumor has it that the May 2019 class and the October 2019 class have been consolidated into an August 2019 class. Unless your state expeditiously processes results, January 2020 would seem to be the default placement. I’d check in with JARO to be a 100% certain, however.



This is correct intel. And from personally talking to Army AD selects that have been through the process and those who are selects still waiting to go off to DCC... I can say this. You’d be best off crossing your fingers that you get your results back in time to ship off to the January class. That’d be on the early side as many Army JAGs talk about 6-12 months being an average time they waited to send off AFTER receiving bar results. As is the nature with the job it’s ‘hurry up and wait.’ And the Army, being by far the most behemoth branch, is the poster child for this mentality...

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Re: Military Law

Postby keong678 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Conster31 wrote:
keong678 wrote:quick question on Army JAG selects. The offer letter said 2020 January class was the earliest class available. Would that mean for DCC to start in 2020 January? or UVA class? I was hoping it to be October 2019.. at the latest.


wondering the same thing...


Rumor has it that the May 2019 class and the October 2019 class have been consolidated into an August 2019 class. Unless your state expeditiously processes results, January 2020 would seem to be the default placement. I’d check in with JARO to be a 100% certain, however.



This is correct intel. And from personally talking to Army AD selects that have been through the process and those who are selects still waiting to go off to DCC... I can say this. You’d be best off crossing your fingers that you get your results back in time to ship off to the January class. That’d be on the early side as many Army JAGs talk about 6-12 months being an average time they waited to send off AFTER receiving bar results. As is the nature with the job it’s ‘hurry up and wait.’ And the Army, being by far the most behemoth branch, is the poster child for this mentality...


Well I am in a slightly different situation. Already barred and working atm as a DA. I am also in the Army reserves...so I really want to be able to go early so that I can be 1. Released from my current unit 2. Be able to tell my employer that I will be leaving. A year just seems too long haha.. Just wanted to see if I can get an earlier class than Jan class

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Re: Military Law

Postby wrangler9 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:19 pm

208th JAOBC, does anyone know when/where we are supposed to get the DD Form 1610?

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Re: Military Law

Postby JAOBC208 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:23 am

wrangler9 wrote:208th JAOBC, does anyone know when/where we are supposed to get the DD Form 1610?


It looks like it’s available online via several DOD sources (thanks, Google), but I know this isn’t an official answer. As a follow-up and unrelated question, did anyone receive confirmation of appointment other than his/her orders? In the past, I’ve known some general appointment document had gone out...



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