Military Law

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brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:41 pm

bahama wrote:I guess the only point I would add for anyone signing up for JAG is that you have to be willing to accept "needs of the service" and realize that whatever the policy is now things can change and you should be mentally prepared/willing to go spend a year in some place crappy where a lot of the locals want to kill you.

You're right - it is important to remember needs of the service do come first, and certainly current policies could change tomorrow.

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:02 am

Rotor wrote:Without spoiling your anonymity, I would be interested in your bona fides


Well, I suppose it can't do any harm to say that I have wanted to be in the JAG Corps for about 8 years now. I finally got to my 3d year of Law School, and the economy turned to shit. People are practically eating each other out there. I applied to Army (a family favorite) in the Fall and did not get in. So, I decided to investigate the other services as well. I have been very impressed with all of them--they each have things that I like. I have since applied to Air Force, Navy, and am applying to Army for the second time. I am just waiting for the results. I am also trying to get my 3 mile run down to 20-ish minutes for the Marines.

Each interview has given me some perspective about what it means to be a JAG in each service. I do not consider myself an expert on any particular JAG Corps. But I am out here, right now, in the running to be in one. I am trying to learn all I can about each of them because I could end up in any one of them. Also, I may have to choose between them. To be honest, if I have a wrong impression about one of the services, I want to know about it. For instance, PB's comment that he takes a lot of criminal cases to trial was pretty reassuring because I have hung my hat on trial advocacy.

Cheers,
Ed

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:57 am

Undead_Ed wrote:
Rotor wrote:Without spoiling your anonymity, I would be interested in your bona fides


Well, I suppose it can't do any harm to say that I have wanted to be in the JAG Corps for about 8 years now. I finally got to my 3d year of Law School, and the economy turned to shit. People are practically eating each other out there. I applied to Army (a family favorite) in the Fall and did not get in. So, I decided to investigate the other services as well. I have been very impressed with all of them--they each have things that I like. I have since applied to Air Force, Navy, and am applying to Army for the second time. I am just waiting for the results. I am also trying to get my 3 mile run down to 20-ish minutes for the Marines.

Each interview has given me some perspective about what it means to be a JAG in each service. I do not consider myself an expert on any particular JAG Corps. But I am out here, right now, in the running to be in one. I am trying to learn all I can about each of them because I could end up in any one of them. Also, I may have to choose between them. To be honest, if I have a wrong impression about one of the services, I want to know about it. For instance, PB's comment that he takes a lot of criminal cases to trial was pretty reassuring because I have hung my hat on trial advocacy.

Cheers,
Ed

Well, I do wish you good luck in your apps. Everyone should have the opportunity to serve if they want to.

All the best,

Rotor

enigmaingr
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Re: Military Law

Postby enigmaingr » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:18 pm

I'm newly registered but have been following this thread for awhile. Does anyone know if prior service with another branch gives you a leg up with the other branches? I'm prior Army but would like to apply to other branches as well.

enigmaingr
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Re: Military Law

Postby enigmaingr » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:53 pm

Undead_Ed wrote:
The Army has the largest JAG Corps with 1700 Lawyers (HOOAH). They are big on creating trial lawyers. This makes me think that a lot of Army cases go to trial. They also expect that you will be in shape and take time to PT with the enlisted. You will deploy. You usually stay at the same duty station for your first 4 years. I think the only LLM you can get is in Military Law.



My impression from the time I was on active duty is that court martials are being used somewhat more frequently but the vast majority of UCMJ action is still done administratively. The reason for more court martials is because it has become more difficult to boot people because of the Army's need to keep boots on the ground. In the not too distant past, all a commander needed to do was slap someone with three Article 15s and the chapter paperwork was basically rubber stamped. Nowadays, you can't get rid of someone short of court martial.

Most of the people I recall going to trial were multiple time losers. They had been in trouble so many times in the past that the command had no real alternative but to court martial. It is something that no commander wants to go though because it reflects poorly on the commander and unit. As a result, I'd still classify actual court martials as relatively rare. I imagine that is fairly standard across the military.

As for PT, I think it's really about what type of unit you are assigned to. Contrary to popular opinion, not everybody in the Army is a PT stud but some units have higher standards. For instance, if you are assigned to the 82nd Airborne and have a tough time passing the 2 mile run, life is going to be rough for you (even as a JAG); other places may not care as long as you pass.

Yes, you will likely deploy in the Army at some point during your first term. It's just something that you have to know is a possibility regardless on which branch you join. One of the constants of military life is that you can't count on what has happened. I knew guys that gloated about getting assigned to a TRADOC post that supposedly doesn't deploy only to hear from them a few months later from Afghanistan.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:26 pm

enigmaingr wrote:I'm newly registered but have been following this thread for awhile. Does anyone know if prior service with another branch gives you a leg up with the other branches? I'm prior Army but would like to apply to other branches as well.

This is totally anecdotal, but I know a prior enlisted Marine who is an AF JAG and a prior Army officer who is a Navy JAG. I haven't sat on a board, so take this for what it's worth. My belief is that any prior service is a plus, with increased weight for prior officers and even more for officers from that particular branch being applied to.

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:44 pm

enigmaingr wrote:I'm newly registered but have been following this thread for awhile. Does anyone know if prior service with another branch gives you a leg up with the other branches? I'm prior Army but would like to apply to other branches as well.


I think that prior service is a definite plus for applying to any branch. I think they realize that becoming a JAG is an adjustment no matter what. If you have enlisted or commissioned service, you have already adjusted to being in the military. But I was told by the Army FSO that the vast majority of those picked up for Army on the last board had prior service PLUS a summer legal internship. Don't pass that up if you get the chance.

Also, if you are changing services you should think about how you would answer a question like "Why do you want to cross into the blue?"

enigmaingr
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Re: Military Law

Postby enigmaingr » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:03 pm

Undead_Ed wrote:
enigmaingr wrote:Also, if you are changing services you should think about how you would answer a question like "Why do you want to cross into the blue?"


That's easy. Because I like calling people by their first name and taking 3 hour lunches everyday of course. I kid. :P

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:27 pm

enigmaingr wrote:I'm newly registered but have been following this thread for awhile. Does anyone know if prior service with another branch gives you a leg up with the other branches? I'm prior Army but would like to apply to other branches as well.


In this context, all prior service is viewed favorably. I'm obviously assuming your prior service is reflected well in your EPR/OPRs and service characterization, but it's not like an USAF board will turn their noses up at you for spending some years in green. I think it can also be advantageous when you get that "why Air Force JAG" question and you can reference your time in the Army and distinguish between the two services. In that we are all purple and joint these days, I can see them wanting someone who can speak Army and bring their experiences to the wild blue yonder (or Navy, whatever).

My current office has prior Army and Marine Corps. The Deputy at my previous office was a Ranger in a former life.

LSATfromNC
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Re: Military Law

Postby LSATfromNC » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:31 pm

enigmaingr wrote:
Undead_Ed wrote:
enigmaingr wrote:Also, if you are changing services you should think about how you would answer a question like "Why do you want to cross into the blue?"


That's easy. Because I like calling people by their first name and taking 3 hour lunches everyday of course. I kid. :P


When you're right, you're right! :)

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:11 pm

Undead_Ed wrote:
Rotor wrote:Without spoiling your anonymity, I would be interested in your bona fides


Well, I suppose it can't do any harm to say that I have wanted to be in the JAG Corps for about 8 years now. I finally got to my 3d year of Law School, and the economy turned to shit. People are practically eating each other out there. I applied to Army (a family favorite) in the Fall and did not get in. So, I decided to investigate the other services as well. I have been very impressed with all of them--they each have things that I like. I have since applied to Air Force, Navy, and am applying to Army for the second time. I am just waiting for the results. I am also trying to get my 3 mile run down to 20-ish minutes for the Marines.

Each interview has given me some perspective about what it means to be a JAG in each service. I do not consider myself an expert on any particular JAG Corps. But I am out here, right now, in the running to be in one. I am trying to learn all I can about each of them because I could end up in any one of them. Also, I may have to choose between them. To be honest, if I have a wrong impression about one of the services, I want to know about it. For instance, PB's comment that he takes a lot of criminal cases to trial was pretty reassuring because I have hung my hat on trial advocacy.

Cheers,
Ed


I'll refrain from any further line-by-line quibbling with your posts but I think the brush strokes you are painting of each service are way, way too broad. Speaking purely from a AF JAG perspective, my life as a JAG is determined to an incredible extent by the Wing/Unit I'm attached with, the Wing/Unit Commander, the Squadron/Group Commanders we also support, my SJA, etc.

That means my answers on PT, numbers of courts-martial, deployments, etc, etc, are heavily influenced by all of those above factors. Ask another JAG from a different base the same questions and you may get very different answers. As mentioned, my SJA is a fitness nut and so my office has a heavy emphasis on PT. One cannot inductively take the leap that if Capt Patrick Bateman at Pierce & Pierce AFB does X, so does all of the Air Force and/or JAG Corps. Some offices/Wings may not bother much with PT, meaning 3x a week on-your-own workouts. Others could have their own internal 5x a week policy.

Similarly, my heavy court load is due to the external factors of being a base with lots of people getting in trouble (and being caught) combined with commanders wanting them to see a court and the SJA supporting that. I am absolutely slammed with my courts the moment. One cannot infer from that, however, that the Air Force has more courts or is in favor of more courts than the Army or anyone else. It just means the planets have aligned at P&B AFB in such a manner that lots of crimes are being preferred for trial. We are also still pursuing Art 15s, LORs/LOAs/LOCs, and Admin Separations when appropriate.

Some bases, usually those under Air Mobility and Air Combat Command, see a heavier court load. Other bases, like Space or Material Command, see far less. I have friends from my JASOC class that have just tried their first case, despite being many months out. I also have friends that have tried a huge number of courts from the get-go. This not due to the Air Force in a large sense, it is because of the specific base to which they are assigned.

All in all, there are no broad categorical assertions that can really stand up when comparing the services. Each base is its own universe and JAG experiences between bases often varies greatly. I do not know enough about the Army to comment on them but I imagine it can be very similar.

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:33 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:All in all, there are no broad categorical assertions that can really stand up when comparing the services. Each base is its own universe and JAG experiences between bases often varies greatly. I do not know enough about the Army to comment on them but I imagine it can be very similar.


You know, part of the trouble is that each JAG Corps is kind of mysterious, even within its own service. Take the common experiences of a line unit member and then combine it with that mystery, and the line unit member will assume that many things he does will apply to the JAG Corps. For example, the Army does a lot of organizational PT. Usually five days a week, as a group. They hold formations and do a company/platoon run or what have you.

But are Army JAGs actually required to get out five days a week and PT in the morning as a group? Maybe. It probably would depend on the command. Maybe the lawyers are so tasked out that they only have time to PT on their own. What I was getting at in my original post is that the Paralegal Non Commissioned Officers are closer to the line unit members. They will EXPECT that you show up to organizational PT. Whether you do or whether you are required to is a different matter. I actually think this is true. If you go PT, they will respect you more as a Soldier.

Now I don't mean to quibble either--I merely mean to discuss. Isn't it true that up until recently nobody in the Air Force did Organizational PT? And in the past few years (say around 2006) the Air Force got some help and instruction from Army guys in how to run an organizational PT session, right? If that is the case, would the NCOs in the Air Force expect the Air Force JAGs to PT with them? For that matter, aren't a lot of paralegals and legal secretaries in the Air Force civilians--and therefore PT exempt?

That brings me to the Labor Law issue. I wonder about how atypical it is for an Air Force base's entire staff to be 25% to 33% civilians. I think that would be very uncommon in the Army. There are a number of civilians, I just do not think it is that many. The Army's business is putting boots on the ground. The Army has so many bodies in uniform, I think 30,000 at Fort Carson, CO, that the ratios could never shift that high in civilian staff. This structure alone would likely lead to less emphasis in Labor Law and more emphasis in criminal law in the Army.

I think that we actually can reach some conclusions about the differences between the services, provided that we explain and qualify them properly.

enigmaingr
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Re: Military Law

Postby enigmaingr » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:42 am

Undead_Ed wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:That brings me to the Labor Law issue. I wonder about how atypical it is for an Air Force base's entire staff to be 25% to 33% civilians. I think that would be very uncommon in the Army. There are a number of civilians, I just do not think it is that many. The Army's business is putting boots on the ground. The Army has so many bodies in uniform, I think 30,000 at Fort Carson, CO, that the ratios could never shift that high in civilian staff. This structure alone would likely lead to less emphasis in Labor Law and more emphasis in criminal law in the Army.

I think that we actually can reach some conclusions about the differences between the services, provided that we explain and qualify them properly.


I would say that civilians working on Army posts is becoming increasingly common. At my last duty station, Fort Knox, a substantial number of administrative functions is done by civilians. Even some Soldier training is conducted by civilian instructors nowadays. Since I left, law enforcement has gone almost completely civilian as well.

crallen
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Re: Military Law

Postby crallen » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:01 pm

Just to clarify, are any of the frequent posters here CURRENT or recently ARMY JAGs? I have asked a question before about my path and everywhere I keep getting yanked around sends me to the next person who doesn't exactly know what to tell me. So if there are any Army JAGs out here, please speak up; I would like to ask you a question! :D

LSATfromNC
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Re: Military Law

Postby LSATfromNC » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:11 pm

enigmaingr wrote:
Undead_Ed wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:That brings me to the Labor Law issue. I wonder about how atypical it is for an Air Force base's entire staff to be 25% to 33% civilians. I think that would be very uncommon in the Army. There are a number of civilians, I just do not think it is that many. The Army's business is putting boots on the ground. The Army has so many bodies in uniform, I think 30,000 at Fort Carson, CO, that the ratios could never shift that high in civilian staff. This structure alone would likely lead to less emphasis in Labor Law and more emphasis in criminal law in the Army.

I think that we actually can reach some conclusions about the differences between the services, provided that we explain and qualify them properly.


I would say that civilians working on Army posts is becoming increasingly common. At my last duty station, Fort Knox, a substantial number of administrative functions is done by civilians. Even some Soldier training is conducted by civilian instructors nowadays. Since I left, law enforcement has gone almost completely civilian as well.

I'm currently working in a spot soldiers typically work, 95% of my coworkers are military.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:49 pm

crallen wrote:Just to clarify, are any of the frequent posters here CURRENT or recently ARMY JAGs? I have asked a question before about my path and everywhere I keep getting yanked around sends me to the next person who doesn't exactly know what to tell me. So if there are any Army JAGs out here, please speak up; I would like to ask you a question! :D


There's a reason for that.

Cross into the Blue! Go Air Force!

:twisted:

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:55 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
crallen wrote:Just to clarify, are any of the frequent posters here CURRENT or recently ARMY JAGs? I have asked a question before about my path and everywhere I keep getting yanked around sends me to the next person who doesn't exactly know what to tell me. So if there are any Army JAGs out here, please speak up; I would like to ask you a question! :D


There's a reason for that.

Cross into the Blue! Go Air Force!

:twisted:

Nah...Go Navy. It's a Global Force for Good. :mrgreen:

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:29 pm

crallen wrote:Just to clarify, are any of the frequent posters here CURRENT or recently ARMY JAGs?


Unfortunately, no Army JAGs are frequent posters on this board. We are fortunate to have one from the Air Force and one from the Navy that do frequently post, however.

There are also some former/current army members on the board, but not JAGs. You might try calling/emailing an Army Field Screening officer. They should be pretty willing to take questions, especially if you are from their region. Their contacts are listed here:

--LinkRemoved--

You might also just create a JAGCNET account and look through the FAQs or the "Hot Topics" documents.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:37 pm

Rotor wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
crallen wrote:Just to clarify, are any of the frequent posters here CURRENT or recently ARMY JAGs? I have asked a question before about my path and everywhere I keep getting yanked around sends me to the next person who doesn't exactly know what to tell me. So if there are any Army JAGs out here, please speak up; I would like to ask you a question! :D


There's a reason for that.

Cross into the Blue! Go Air Force!

:twisted:

Nah...Go Navy. It's a Global Force for Good. :mrgreen:


Ah yes. It is like our PR people are in some twisted competition to come up with the least inspiring stuff ever. My personal favorite is our Space Command themed commercial in which some officer gives a bland command to an E-5 manning a computer terminal and a satellite moves. Meanwhile Marines are climbing mountains and slaying lava monsters.

latinolaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby latinolaw » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:46 pm

It's probably somewhere in this post, but would someone care to compare JAG navy, air force, army? Not just the uniforms and who is "cooler". I want to know what some of the practical differences are and how I could decide which to apply for.

Also, if/when deployed, are spouses allowed to accompany?

crallen
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Re: Military Law

Postby crallen » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:40 pm

I guess I never checked the FSOs because I assumed they were just a region which doesn't really apply to me as I am an ROTC Scholarship currently... but I will try the one at the law school I am hoping to attend and see what he knows. Thanks for the info.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:09 pm

latinolaw wrote:It's probably somewhere in this post, but would someone care to compare JAG navy, air force, army? Not just the uniforms and who is "cooler". I want to know what some of the practical differences are and how I could decide which to apply for.

Also, if/when deployed, are spouses allowed to accompany?


1. A significant amount of the posts deal with a poster's experiences with Army (JRod, etc), Navy (Rotor, Brownshoe, etc), AF (me and others).
If you take the time to comb through the pages, you will learn a lot. I reviewed the first 5 pages of this thread and there is quite a bit of discussion on USAF and Navy work and lifestyle on that alone.

2. When (not if) you deploy, your spouse is not coming with you.

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:13 pm

crallen wrote:I guess I never checked the FSOs because I assumed they were just a region which doesn't really apply to me as I am an ROTC Scholarship currently... but I will try the one at the law school I am hoping to attend and see what he knows. Thanks for the info.


So you are trying to get an Ed Delay? Or you are debating whether or not to try to get an Ed Delay?

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:33 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:2. When (not if) you deploy, your spouse is not coming with you.

Correct. To add some more info for non-military types - you can get stationed overseas for a 2-3 year tour where your family does go with you. This is obviously not a deployment, just a potential assigned duty location.

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Rowinguy2009
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rowinguy2009 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:01 pm

I had one question about pay that I wanted to make sure I understood correctly...

For the Navy and Air Force, you join as an O-2, and then 6-12 months later you are promoted to an 0-3. As far as pay purposes go, you start gaining experience as soon as you sign up. So if someone were to be accepted and formally sign up the summer between their 1L and 2L years (this is hypothetical) then once they actually pass the bar and go to work they would start out getting paid as an O-2 with 2 years experience. (The two years experience coming from the 2L and 3L years of law school since this person was enlisted at the time) Is this correct? I am still an 0L, but it seems to me that these 2 years worth of experience would make a noticeable difference in pay, and since I am fairly confident JAG is what I want to do, it seems that signing up as early as possible would be in my best interest.




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