Military Law

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heyarnold

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Re: Military Law

Postby heyarnold » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:20 am

What's the protocol for Briefcases / Messenger Bags? Do they need to be either black or olive to match ABU's? Is there an everyday messenger bag that y'all often see, but something different (like a fancy portfolio accordion folder) that you see in the courtroom ?

Any recommendations or online links would be much appreciated :D

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:32 am

heyarnold wrote:What's the protocol for Briefcases / Messenger Bags? Do they need to be either black or olive to match ABU's? Is there an everyday messenger bag that y'all often see, but something different (like a fancy portfolio accordion folder) that you see in the courtroom ?

Any recommendations or online links would be much appreciated :D


AFI 36-2903 is your one stop shopping location for all questions related to uniforms and accessories.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/produ ... 6-2903.pdf

I recommend sticking with black as it can be worn with ABUs, OCPs, Blues, and Service Dress. Other colors may be permitted with ABU/OCP but are not authorized for Blues/Service Dress. Keep it simple.

When you are a junior trial counsel, I don't think it really matters what you are using. You have home field advantage with a court-room that will be located in or near your legal office, so schlepping documents and books around is not that big of a deal.

For those going on to be ADCs and STCs, you want something durable and functional over fancy. With all the travel, anything you have is going to get beat to hell. You will also want something light given you are going to be running through airports with it.

Personally, I think a junior TC with a fancy black briefcase or bag would look a little silly - basically that you are trying way too hard to look like a lawyer on TV. No military judge or panel of officers is going to be impressed with that as you are sitting there with the three "thanks for joining" ribbons on your chest.

I have used a black Timbuk2 messenger for basically all of my military and civilian career:

https://www.timbuk2.com/collections/all ... senger-bag

Great quality, does not stand out, and lasts forever. I had one all through law school and most of my active duty time until a protein shake spilled inside of it and it ended up smelling like death - that was the only reason I had to replace it. Even with DOJ/USAO, I was not using my fancy bags/briefcases for most of the work - why beat up a nice piece of leather by jamming it in the airplane's overhead?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:17 pm

Has anyone heard back regarding timeline or orders for the January JAG class?

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Re: Military Law

Postby csjdoc » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone heard back regarding timeline or orders for the January JAG class?


I'm going to assume that you're referring to Army JAG. If you're seated for the January class, you'll received confirmation around the middle of November. You'll receive your orders around the week of Christmas and the January class will begin on January 21, 2019.

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Re: Military Law

Postby LLC1 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:31 am

looking for advice/options re jag -
i signed a contract and accepted a commission but the situation is a bit muddy as far as licensing so i have questions ... i've taken the bar, didn't quite pass, trying to transfer, unclear how long of a process that'll be and if it'll ultimately be successful :/

1. what happens if i do not get my license on time (i.e. within a year of commissioning)? initiated the transfer process, would remain pending through february bar exams but apparently transfers can take quite a while. would i be discharged? & what kind of discharge is that? or are there extensions?

2. given the contract & oath, do i have any honorable ways of being let out of it? definitely not a CO nor would i try to make the claim but just curious as to whether that's an option at all because i have been operating under the presumption it is not

3. bar prep and the ensuing mess re licensing were beyond terrible for my mental health. i'm seeing a therapist now/again. i disclosed in my files using counseling years before but for transitions and whatnot; this time i'm working on what might be moderate depression. am i supposed to disclose seeing a therapist or is this still protected health information? and would any of this have any effect on my contract/commission?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:10 pm

LLC1 wrote:looking for advice/options re jag -
i signed a contract and accepted a commission but the situation is a bit muddy as far as licensing so i have questions ... i've taken the bar, didn't quite pass, trying to transfer, unclear how long of a process that'll be and if it'll ultimately be successful :/

1. what happens if i do not get my license on time (i.e. within a year of commissioning)? initiated the transfer process, would remain pending through february bar exams but apparently transfers can take quite a while. would i be discharged? & what kind of discharge is that? or are there extensions?

2. given the contract & oath, do i have any honorable ways of being let out of it? definitely not a CO nor would i try to make the claim but just curious as to whether that's an option at all because i have been operating under the presumption it is not

3. bar prep and the ensuing mess re licensing were beyond terrible for my mental health. i'm seeing a therapist now/again. i disclosed in my files using counseling years before but for transitions and whatnot; this time i'm working on what might be moderate depression. am i supposed to disclose seeing a therapist or is this still protected health information? and would any of this have any effect on my contract/commission?


Can you explain what type of contract you signed?

Most services do not allow you to commission until you are fully qualified I.e. medically and bar good standing.

Unless you did something like ROTC?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Backload » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
LLC1 wrote:looking for advice/options re jag -
i signed a contract and accepted a commission but the situation is a bit muddy as far as licensing so i have questions ... i've taken the bar, didn't quite pass, trying to transfer, unclear how long of a process that'll be and if it'll ultimately be successful :/

1. what happens if i do not get my license on time (i.e. within a year of commissioning)? initiated the transfer process, would remain pending through february bar exams but apparently transfers can take quite a while. would i be discharged? & what kind of discharge is that? or are there extensions?

2. given the contract & oath, do i have any honorable ways of being let out of it? definitely not a CO nor would i try to make the claim but just curious as to whether that's an option at all because i have been operating under the presumption it is not

3. bar prep and the ensuing mess re licensing were beyond terrible for my mental health. i'm seeing a therapist now/again. i disclosed in my files using counseling years before but for transitions and whatnot; this time i'm working on what might be moderate depression. am i supposed to disclose seeing a therapist or is this still protected health information? and would any of this have any effect on my contract/commission?


Can you explain what type of contract you signed?

Most services do not allow you to commission until you are fully qualified I.e. medically and bar good standing.

Unless you did something like ROTC?


Disclaimer: I was not ROTC so I’m not sure.

When you commission at the Academy, you have a service commitment no matter what. If you go to law school on ed delay, They give you two chances to pass the bar. If you do not pass either of those times, they will cross train you into another career field.

I would guess this is the same for ROTC but please correct me. They already spent money on you through field training, so they aren’t going to let you just walk away.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:56 pm

Anyone else in USAR January JAG not get their SF86 E-Qip email?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:44 pm

Does anyone have any insight (housing, worklife, etc.) on Barksdale AFB or Shreveport/Bossier City, LA?

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone have any insight (housing, worklife, etc.) on Barksdale AFB or Shreveport/Bossier City, LA?


I have never been stationed at Barksdale so I can't weigh in on the housing/social/etc element of things. I do know a number of people that have been stationed there over the years, however, and I have not heard any negative things about the place. The location is not perfect but it is close to a lot of good stuff and Barksdale itself is a large base with a lot going on.

The installation level wing flies the veritable B-52. The base is a lot like Scott, where you then have a lot of higher level HQs also co-located. There is 8th AF (a NAF), Global Strike HQ (MAJCOM), and then some tenant units as well as some AFRC units. There is a lot going on there.

If you are hoping for justice experience, you will be in good shape.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:13 pm

csjdoc wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone heard back regarding timeline or orders for the January JAG class?


I'm going to assume that you're referring to Army JAG. If you're seated for the January class, you'll received confirmation around the middle of November. You'll receive your orders around the week of Christmas and the January class will begin on January 21, 2019.


Hi, do you know how many seats there are for the January class? Also do you know if we receive an eqip security clearance form in when we get notification of whether we are in the Jan class or not?

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Re: Military Law

Postby csjdoc » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:
csjdoc wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone heard back regarding timeline or orders for the January JAG class?


I'm going to assume that you're referring to Army JAG. If you're seated for the January class, you'll received confirmation around the middle of November. You'll receive your orders around the week of Christmas and the January class will begin on January 21, 2019.


Hi, do you know how many seats there are for the January class? Also do you know if we receive an eqip security clearance form in when we get notification of whether we are in the Jan class or not?


I don't know the exact number of seats for the January class. However, my understanding is that the January class is usually larger than the October class.

The security clearance process begins once you are assigned to a class. You will be contacted with instructions regarding the background check for the security clearance when you are assigned to a class.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:51 am

csjdoc wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
csjdoc wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Has anyone heard back regarding timeline or orders for the January JAG class?


I'm going to assume that you're referring to Army JAG. If you're seated for the January class, you'll received confirmation around the middle of November. You'll receive your orders around the week of Christmas and the January class will begin on January 21, 2019.


Hi, do you know how many seats there are for the January class? Also do you know if we receive an eqip security clearance form in when we get notification of whether we are in the Jan class or not?


I don't know the exact number of seats for the January class. However, my understanding is that the January class is usually larger than the October class.

The security clearance process begins once you are assigned to a class. You will be contacted with instructions regarding the background check for the security clearance when you are assigned to a class.


Ok gotcha. Thanks for the update!

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Quasar

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Re: Military Law

Postby Quasar » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 am

Hello all, haven't posted in a while.

Just a brief update: I completed my summer internship with the Coast Guard. Turned in my DCL package and just recently had my board interview. Patiently waiting for the December hiring panel.

Any other DCL applicants?

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:12 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
howell wrote:Has anyone attended the Jobs for JAGs event put on by the Judge Advocates Association? Or know anyone who has? If so, was it helpful or a waste of time?


Overall, it is worth your time as long as your expectations are realistic.

I have no idea what is in store for this year but in the past, there were a handful of Skadden type BigLaw firms recruiting for their white collar defense shops, along with some DOJ and other BigFed manning informational tables.

The panels will vary. The biggest challenge for an event like this is the audience - you have O-3s separating after their 4 year commitment through very senior O-6s retiring after 25+ years. Those are demographics with basically zero overlap, so not everything presented may be something you are interested in. For example, they had panels on how to become an ALJ or how to land an SES position - it is good information for anyone, but really is directed to the retiring O-5/O-6 world.

They also had "floating" panelists that were basically just reserve/separated JAGs that were already employed in BigLaw/BigFed/BigDefenseContractor that were talking to people over lunch, on breaks, etc with any questions individual folks might have had.

While I absolutely hate the term "networking," it is also valuable in that context - I ran into peers and superiors from years back that I didn't know were getting out. You never know who knows who, where they are going, etc. The greater JAG Corps fraternity out there is huge and there can be some very valuable connections and introductions to be made. Making the leap from AD is a scary thing and I found there is a real sense of solidarity.


For Howell and anyone else wanting to attend Jobs for JAGs, you can register here (this year there is a cap and they are already at 50% capacity, so don't delay if you want to go):

http://jaa.org/

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:04 am

Want to hear from current or former JAs about mental and emotional resiliency during your service. How often did you deal with things that were really troubling to you? Any insights that helped you maintain good mental/emotional fitness while dealing with “heavier” cases or assignments?

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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:40 am

First, thank you to Patrick for the JAA info. I need to nail down some logistics, then I'll register if it's still open.

Anonymous User wrote:Want to hear from current or former JAs about mental and emotional resiliency during your service. How often did you deal with things that were really troubling to you? Any insights that helped you maintain good mental/emotional fitness while dealing with “heavier” cases or assignments?

I'll discuss my two areas with resiliency challenges, and then try to talk about other possible situations that can arise.

My initial assignment was awful and a huge resiliency challenge. To be clear, it was an outlier in the base legal office assignment arena. But I measured my day by how many people (and what rank) would cry in my office. Nearly everyone in the office was going to mental health and/or the chaplain. The hours were essentially how much you could force yourself to do both physically and emotionally. Easy 80+ hour weeks on the reg for months on end. We weren't even that busy by any of the metrics that mattered - it's just my SJA knew how to take a 1-hour project and turn it into 30. Our SJA also had nearly all of us on eggshells about making any kind of mistake. I could go on with stories, but it would even more easily identify me. I got to the point that I had an honest discussion with another Capt about whether a mental health discharge would hurt our bar licenses - anything to get out from it. Toward the end of the assignment, I changed my viewpoint. All I cared about was protecting my people (mostly making sure they all stayed above ground); I had zero concern about what happened to me professionally. This may change depending on your personality, but for me it helped to just focus on protecting others.

That was an absolute outlier of an assignment. My deployment was phenomenal, my time as an ADC (after the initial hurdles I describe below) was one of the best jobs of my life, and my current job is an easy 9-5 if that. I have had great leadership in every job since then as well.

Second, my time as an ADC took some adjustment. I put a lot into every case - I was very concerned about ALL my clients, not just those going to court. I'm pretty empathetic, so working with clients in these situations took a lot out of me, especially at first. Ii also took some time to learn how to manage my workload. The worst was any time I thought I had done something to hurt a client. I would be inconsolable, and there was no chance of sleeping that night. I now laugh, but at one point I sent my friend a text saying the Air Force had made a mistake making me an ADC. But this got better after a few months. I learned how to avoid the rookie mistakes. I also learned that a lot of things can be fixed. And at some point you have to understand that you've given your client your best, and you're likely the only one who even gave a damn. After awhile, it was still stressful, but I enjoyed it much more and found it incredibly rewarding.

The thing that will get you through any of these tough times is other people you serve with. In my base legal office situation, it was the Capts and paralegals I worked with. As an ADC, most of your support system is remote, but I would hope every ADC is on the phone with her/his other ADC buddies talking through cases and what to do.

There are some other situations I've managed to avoid that might crop up:

Child porn/abuse cases - I've never had anything really significant on this side. There are things you can't unsee or unhear. I don't have good advice on this. Most people probably know if these are things they simply cannot handle.

Deployment in no kidding dangerous places - Even in some of the more "built up" locations, there can be a constant threat of attack. The odds might be low, but the consistent threat and response has led to significant issues for some.

Extremely high-stakes cases - Murders, extreme assaults, cases with significant publicity, etc. I imagine this would turn up the stress a lot. The closest I've had is a recruiter case as a prosecutor and a multi-vic sex assault case as an ADC, but nothing with real attention from the outside.

Since I haven't been through these, I can't really offer much help. But these situations are relatively rare, and you have a good shot of avoiding some or all of this either through luck or planning.

When I talk to potential or young JAGs, I don't really stress the risks of mental health or resilience issues, because I don't think the risk is terribly high for most people, especially those who end up here (mostly because we know what we're signing up for). In fact, a lot of people greatly enjoy the vast majority of their time on active duty, or at least it's not worse than whatever bullshit we put up with in the civilian world.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Want to hear from current or former JAs about mental and emotional resiliency during your service. How often did you deal with things that were really troubling to you? Any insights that helped you maintain good mental/emotional fitness while dealing with “heavier” cases or assignments?


I would add that mental and emotional problems are not unique to Judge Advocates or the military. It is a huge issue (that no one likes to talk about) in the legal community no matter where you practice (firm, JA, agency etc.) or what area of law.

There are a lot of articles and sites discussing addiction and mental health problems that plague the legal profession:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/15/busi ... ealth.html
https://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/us/lawye ... index.html

I would think part of the answer to maintaining good mental/emotional fitness is getting help when you need it. The ABA also has mental/emotional wellness resources for lawyers.

Also there is an interesting article in the GW law review: "What Makes Lawyers Happy?: A Data-Driven Prescription to Redefine Professional Success, 83 George Washington Law Review 554 (2015)." It may be worth a read.

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Re: Military Law

Postby TortsIllustratedd » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:48 pm

Long time lurker, but first time poster. Thanks to everyone who has posted before for helping me decipher this whole process.

Question for any of the AF/ Navy JA selects that have been through the process. Any advice on how to spruce up your application for the 2nd or 3rd time applying? I get that they want to see people who keep at it, but starting to get a little discouraged with the rejections. Interviews went well and previously clerked in an AF SJA office, so curious as to how I can spice things up. Also, any idea when the results of the 11/1 board might be out? Thanks y'all.

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Re: Military Law

Postby pipedream » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone else in USAR January JAG not get their SF86 E-Qip email?


Just a tip in case no one's mentioned it: if you complete your SF-86 online (via E-Qip, as is standard these days), make damn sure you print/save a completed copy for yourself. Once it's submitted, you won't have access to it again until your clearance is up for review or upgrade (which could be as far as ten years down the line, depending on your clearance level), and Unit Security Managers don't have access to it due to the investigations being contracted. There'll likely be more than a few instances in that timeframe in which having the information would be useful

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:24 pm

pipedream wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone else in USAR January JAG not get their SF86 E-Qip email?


Just a tip in case no one's mentioned it: if you complete your SF-86 online (via E-Qip, as is standard these days), make damn sure you print/save a completed copy for yourself. Once it's submitted, you won't have access to it again until your clearance is up for review or upgrade (which could be as far as ten years down the line, depending on your clearance level), and Unit Security Managers don't have access to it due to the investigations being contracted. There'll likely be more than a few instances in that timeframe in which having the information would be useful


When does the SF86 E-Qip email get sent out?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:52 pm

Does anyone know when the Air Force OYCP application opens?

Also, I have made it through most of the thread, and I have talked with couple current Judge Advocates, but my current impression is that the Air Force would provide a larger variety of practice areas and possibly include opportunities to practice outside of the typical litigation/legal services. I am looking only at the Marines in the alternative, and it seems between their less frequent position rotation and what they typically do, one would only get exposed to litigation and legal services on a first tour? I would appreciate if anyone could let me know if this is an accurate assessment.

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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know when the Air Force OYCP application opens?

Also, I have made it through most of the thread, and I have talked with couple current Judge Advocates, but my current impression is that the Air Force would provide a larger variety of practice areas and possibly include opportunities to practice outside of the typical litigation/legal services. I am looking only at the Marines in the alternative, and it seems between their less frequent position rotation and what they typically do, one would only get exposed to litigation and legal services on a first tour? I would appreciate if anyone could let me know if this is an accurate assessment.

I just saw on Facebook that the OYCP application is open as of today.

I don't have much to offer on your other question. I share your expectations of Marine JAG life, but I don't have recent first-hand experiences to relay. The AF and the Marines are on the far ends of the JAG spectrum, so it's a little unusual to just look at those two branches. But you will definitely get broad experience from the AF.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:05 pm

howell wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know when the Air Force OYCP application opens?

Also, I have made it through most of the thread, and I have talked with couple current Judge Advocates, but my current impression is that the Air Force would provide a larger variety of practice areas and possibly include opportunities to practice outside of the typical litigation/legal services. I am looking only at the Marines in the alternative, and it seems between their less frequent position rotation and what they typically do, one would only get exposed to litigation and legal services on a first tour? I would appreciate if anyone could let me know if this is an accurate assessment.

I just saw on Facebook that the OYCP application is open as of today.

I don't have much to offer on your other question. I share your expectations of Marine JAG life, but I don't have recent first-hand experiences to relay. The AF and the Marines are on the far ends of the JAG spectrum, so it's a little unusual to just look at those two branches. But you will definitely get broad experience from the AF.


Howell beat me to it. There is a marked difference between the USAF and USMC in respect to, well, basically everything. What may be subtle or significant differences in the level of practice are probably a secondary consideration. It is not like picking between two white shoe firms, wondering who has the better M&A practice.

The old joke comes to mind: there are actually only two branches of the US Armed Forces - the Army and the Navy. The Air Force is a corporation and the Marine Corps is a cult.

I'm not qualified to weigh in on practice as an USMC JAG. There have been a ton of posts already on what the first four years look like as an AF JAG.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:07 pm

TortsIllustratedd wrote:Long time lurker, but first time poster. Thanks to everyone who has posted before for helping me decipher this whole process.

Question for any of the AF/ Navy JA selects that have been through the process. Any advice on how to spruce up your application for the 2nd or 3rd time applying? I get that they want to see people who keep at it, but starting to get a little discouraged with the rejections. Interviews went well and previously clerked in an AF SJA office, so curious as to how I can spice things up. Also, any idea when the results of the 11/1 board might be out? Thanks y'all.


If you go back a bit, there is a sitting SJA that posts as an Anon that addressed this exact issue. Can't beat that sort of insight.

And no idea when the board results will drop. Keep in mind that the date a board is scheduled for is not always going to be the date it actually convenes. And as we start approaching the holiday season, things will always take longer.



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