Military Law

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BLucare

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Re: Military Law

Postby BLucare » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:33 pm

BLucare wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
BLucare wrote:Question for anyone who might have an answer, but particularly for Mr. Bateman, as he has AFJAG experience:

I was selected for DAP in November. Being a May 2018 graduate from a Wisconsin law school, I'm in the fortunate position of already being certified for the bar. I have obtained my certificate of good standing, and am waiting on a few other documents to send to the proper AF channels. I have been in touch with the AF POC lately, and I will be going to MEPS next week. SO, because all of those ducks are already in a row so quickly, I have been told by the POC that I may be entering active duty as soon as early August, and will report to my base to start working in the legal office even before attending COT. He was unsure if I would be attending the August or October COT class, but the larger point was that I would be reporting to the base ASAP, and much sooner than I thought possible.

Now, I was under the impression, based on this thread and other research, that COT was the first step before reporting to a duty station, as COT would provide at least the foundation for existing in a military environment. My question is: Does what I have been told about active duty and reporting to the base before COT seem accurate and/or likely at this stage? Thanks in advance.


To clarify - that Air Force POC, is he/she affiliated with MEPS or AFPC (or any other org in Big Air Force), or is it someone on the staff at JAX? If it is not coming directly from JAX, it is not reliable information. No one in the rest of the AF actually understands how we handle our new accessions.

What you have described of reporting to your base before COT seems highly unusual and not something I have heard of before. For Direct Appointees, as far as I am aware, the first stop is COT so you can learn the basics. Someone would be an absolute soup sandwich if required to report in an active status at a base without that training.


This particular POC is a civilian at JAX. I won't name names, so as to not throw this person under the bus on a public forum. They are also the same person who told me back in November 2017 that the June 2018 COT class was a possibility, as I was from Wisconsin and wouldn't be held up by the bar. After that conversation, I was told by an AFJAG POC at JAX that attending June 2018 COT would not be likely at all, as the post-graduation part of the accessions process simply takes more time than that.

Your reaction echoes my precise thoughts about the situation. I do know that reporting to my base after COT, but before JASOC is likely the case if I were to be placed in the October 2018 COT class. That seems reasonable to me. Being squeezed into the August COT class at this point and then reporting to the base until JASOC would be equally reasonable. Speaking of which, given that I haven't attended MEPS yet, what's the approximate likelihood of me attending the August COT class anyway?


^^ In response to my own post above, I just spoke with the new Chief of Accessions at JAX. Apparently, sending DAP appointees to their base before COT is a thing that they do now, particularly with people who have been admitted to the bar for a significant period of time before COT. I guess I fall into that category. Just a heads-up for anyone else who feels perplexed, if you are told the same thing during the accessions process.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:37 pm

BLucare wrote:^^ In response to my own post above, I just spoke with the new Chief of Accessions at JAX. Apparently, sending DAP appointees to their base before COT is a thing that they do now, particularly with people who have been admitted to the bar for a significant period of time before COT. I guess I fall into that category. Just a heads-up for anyone else who feels perplexed, if you are told the same thing during the accessions process.


:shock:

Well, good luck then!

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Re: Military Law

Postby BLucare » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:54 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
BLucare wrote:^^ In response to my own post above, I just spoke with the new Chief of Accessions at JAX. Apparently, sending DAP appointees to their base before COT is a thing that they do now, particularly with people who have been admitted to the bar for a significant period of time before COT. I guess I fall into that category. Just a heads-up for anyone else who feels perplexed, if you are told the same thing during the accessions process.


:shock:

Well, good luck then!


HAH, yeah. I'm either heading to COT on August 12, or heading to my first base in late August/early September before October 1 COT. In any event, JASOC isn't until February 2019.

The new Chief of Accessions made it sound like the expectations at the base would be significantly lower for a person in that situation, versus someone coming in post-COT, which I sort-of expected. She also said that people in that position have a bit of a leg up at COT and JASOC, having been on a base already.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:15 pm

BLucare wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
BLucare wrote:^^ In response to my own post above, I just spoke with the new Chief of Accessions at JAX. Apparently, sending DAP appointees to their base before COT is a thing that they do now, particularly with people who have been admitted to the bar for a significant period of time before COT. I guess I fall into that category. Just a heads-up for anyone else who feels perplexed, if you are told the same thing during the accessions process.


:shock:

Well, good luck then!


HAH, yeah. I'm either heading to COT on August 12, or heading to my first base in late August/early September before October 1 COT. In any event, JASOC isn't until February 2019.

The new Chief of Accessions made it sound like the expectations at the base would be significantly lower for a person in that situation, versus someone coming in post-COT, which I sort-of expected. She also said that people in that position have a bit of a leg up at COT and JASOC, having been on a base already.


Edited my original post.

I think the first thing you need to find out is if you are going to be in uniform. Or are you going to be treated like a glorified civilian intern that can be in civvies.

Once you learn your assignment, JAX can get you the contact info for either the SJA or your sponsor in the office. From there you can figure out how they plan on using you and if you are going to have to figure out a lot of things really fast without the benefit of doing it in a training environment. Let's take it from there once you learn more.

I'm also at Illini.JAG@gmail.com if you want to reach out - that way we won't keep pinging the post alert emails for everyone subscribed to the thread.

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howell

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Re: !

Postby howell » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:38 pm

girlfromtheprairie wrote:I'm going to be perfectly honest, though. My spouse (and many other JAG spouses who were professionals prior to their first PCS) just aren't able to find jobs in their career field. It's just something your spouse will have to be able to buy into. And hopefully by your second assignment, you'll be able to have a little more pull as to where you'd like to be. (Especially if you want to be an ADC or SVC).

I'm very likely getting out after this assignment, and the wife wanting a career is one of the biggest issues. And it's an issue I don't think we'll be able to overcome. Moving every 2 years (or less, as I have) is very challenging for most careers.

I still haven't found a solid reason not to do the Guard/Reserves, but it would depend on what job I exit to. Even in the Reserve world, they're trying to move everyone every 3 years. Kinda cills the Citizen Airman vibe.

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howell

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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I’m new to this thread, and while I know that I’m competitive for most jobs in the civilian realm, Ive heard that JAG criteria can be way different in sometimes non-intuitive ways.

Anyone willing to gusss my odds of getting hired by the Army with the following bio: Graduated a few years ago in the top 1-2% at a T20, clerked twice (federal district and circuit courts in 2/9/DC), and then spent the last year in litigation at a V10 biglaw firm (lots of briefing experience, but very little courtroom advocacy). Im reasonably fit, if that matters.


Your odds are fine, but I'm curious why you'd want to go into the JAG Corp. You're going from a very high-flying route into a job that is a lot like being a pd/ada early on and is just a lot of managerial work down the road. Why not exit into AUSA/AFPD?


I have to admit that I had the same reaction. I think the JAGC would be lucky to have someone with your credentials but with your background the lateral to Main Justice or an USAO / FPD is indeed more typical for someone looking to either get involved with, or check the box for, public service. Will you actually be happy in the first few years as a JAG should you find yourself doing Legal Assistance at Fort Sill?

You will be competitive but I think you will have to really be ready to sell the "why be a JAG" question given your background. If two randos on TLS had the "are you sure about this?" sort of reaction, you can bet that the selection folks might wonder it as well. The transition from Skadden/Latham/etc to wearing a uniform is a pretty extreme one - if I was in a selection role, I would want to be sure you could be a fit culturally.

These points are well taken, thanks. I've always been interested in serving in the military, and I am looking for a career change (assessing my options, because I don't know that I am long for biglaw). USAO/DOJ is definitely something I've considered, but even then I would be interested in doing JAG Reserves for the military service aspect.

Another possibility that I have been thinking about is joining the Reserves and staying in biglaw for as long as they are willing to put up with me always being gone. I have read a few places in this thread and others where people say that trying to do biglaw and JAG reserves at the same time is a nightmare -- but is that comment working under the assumption that the person is trying to excel/make partner in biglaw (as opposed to just skate by for a few years before transitioning into something else)? I know there are not many data points/anecdotes on this route, but I appreciate the input.

I recommend avoiding active duty. You can do more meaningful and/or remunerative work elsewhere and have control over much more of your life. I don't see active duty service opening many doors for you your current stats and experience can't already. Even if it could, I'm not sure it's worth selling at least 4 years of your life.

The Reserves might be difficult to get into, but it's not out of the question. Depending on if you have time to balance it with your day job, it could be a really good deal.


This is somewhat related and for anyone considering the military. Know that no matter how talented you are, you will have to do your time, and you will be treated like you haven't done your time all the while. This is from the military's version of the Onion, but it is the realest article ever written about the military:

https://www.duffelblog.com/2016/05/captain-america-moved-to-staff-position/

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Esquire

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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:17 am

The Army is activating Reservists as SAUSAs to prosecute immigration cases. Reservist buddy told me. He declined the offer.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:09 am

Esquire wrote:The Army is activating Reservists as SAUSAs to prosecute immigration cases. Reservist buddy told me. He declined the offer.


This is obviously my personal opinion only - I am not attempting to start any sort of political debate on this thread:

All of the services were tapped - I got the email maybe a month ago. It has been met with a collective "no thanks" from my peer group. The really crappy thing is that is that the announcement was several weeks before whole family separation policy fiasco/tragedy came to a head. I thought it was a generally bad idea before that and now the optics could not be worse.

With this administration's priorities, I get why this occurred but I really can't see the how or why it was signed off on at the SECDEF, Service Sec, GC, and TJAG levels. This just may not have been a hill worth dying on for those in the Pentagon. There are tons of different agencies that regularly detail their trial lawyers to SAUSA positions - SSA, DHS, State, etc, to say nothing of OIL and EOIR in DOJ itself. Why they went the JAG route is curious.

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howell

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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:27 pm

I'm curious what happens if they don't get enough volunteers. I hope they know better than to volun-tell people to go, but I won't assume that won't happen.

And then there are the JAGs working on bases that will become detainment centers. Our installation was asked whether we could hold a few hundred undocumented immigrants after a round-up. We are far from the border in question.

This is the first time I've questioned whether I can continue in my job despite disagreement with political policies. In most things we do, we're at least the voice of reason (or law). For example, even if a JAG disagreed with the reasons for being in a particular conflict, the closest we get to things would typically be something like targeting, where all we're doing is trying to enforce the law of war. Getting involved in immigration in this way feels too far afield from what we should be doing. Very few organizations protect their image like the military does (we literally put people in jail for tarnishing it). I don't see how we avoid taking a significant hit for involvement here.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:I’m new to this thread, and while I know that I’m competitive for most jobs in the civilian realm, Ive heard that JAG criteria can be way different in sometimes non-intuitive ways.

Anyone willing to gusss my odds of getting hired by the Army with the following bio: Graduated a few years ago in the top 1-2% at a T20, clerked twice (federal district and circuit courts in 2/9/DC), and then spent the last year in litigation at a V10 biglaw firm (lots of briefing experience, but very little courtroom advocacy). Im reasonably fit, if that matters.


I think you should apply for it and see how it goes. I also have a different piece of advice than everyone else who posted. Life is incredibly short and you should do what you want with your career. If you like the idea of being a JAG and serving your country, then do it. If you like the idea of doing something else, then do that. There are too many unhappy lawyers out here trapped in positions they did not want because they thought it made them look "successful."

It's your life and you only get one shot at it. You should not measure happiness or success by anyone else's standards. Good luck

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:26 am

Hi all! First thank you all for sharing your insight and knowledge, it has been invaluable as I've navigated through the DAP process

I have a quick question for anyone who might know. I'm an AFJAG DAP select (not even sure that is the proper term). Been an attorney for some time and sent emails to JAX several times trying to gather information about when I will be leaving for COT. I needed the information because the types of cases I handle are time sensitive and my supervisors needed to reassign upcoming trials if I was not going to be around for them. Long story short JAX told me I was planned for the 1 Oct. COT class, so I informed my supervisors and effectively gave notice that I will be leaving come september so they could reassign the trials and the cases and victims wouldn't be adversely affected. Basically they are phasing me out.

It seems that now all I need to do is complete the MEPS physical and then be assigned to a base. My concern is that three weeks ago when I spoke to JAX they said I was next on being processed for MEPS and I still havent heard anything. I asked via email again today and again havent heard anything. My concern is that I wont get the phsyical done in time to get processed to make it to the October class. My husband (who is a 2LT pilot) is in San Antonio already while I am in California, and I have been delaying my move until I have a job there so we wouldn't suffer financially. Since they told me October I've now scheduled the move, effectively given notice, and if I cannot make it to the October class then I will be out of a job.

So my real question is am I being overly concerned? Should I continue contacting them or should I be concerned that I am annoying them with my emails so that I'm effectively delaying them from scheduling my MEPS exam? Anyone with insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all so much!

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all! First thank you all for sharing your insight and knowledge, it has been invaluable as I've navigated through the DAP process

I have a quick question for anyone who might know. I'm an AFJAG DAP select (not even sure that is the proper term). Been an attorney for some time and sent emails to JAX several times trying to gather information about when I will be leaving for COT. I needed the information because the types of cases I handle are time sensitive and my supervisors needed to reassign upcoming trials if I was not going to be around for them. Long story short JAX told me I was planned for the 1 Oct. COT class, so I informed my supervisors and effectively gave notice that I will be leaving come september so they could reassign the trials and the cases and victims wouldn't be adversely affected. Basically they are phasing me out.

It seems that now all I need to do is complete the MEPS physical and then be assigned to a base. My concern is that three weeks ago when I spoke to JAX they said I was next on being processed for MEPS and I still havent heard anything. I asked via email again today and again havent heard anything. My concern is that I wont get the phsyical done in time to get processed to make it to the October class. My husband (who is a 2LT pilot) is in San Antonio already while I am in California, and I have been delaying my move until I have a job there so we wouldn't suffer financially. Since they told me October I've now scheduled the move, effectively given notice, and if I cannot make it to the October class then I will be out of a job.

So my real question is am I being overly concerned? Should I continue contacting them or should I be concerned that I am annoying them with my emails so that I'm effectively delaying them from scheduling my MEPS exam? Anyone with insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all so much!


Not to alarm you, but personally I would not have told my employer (or anyone at my office) of my resignation until I actually got medically cleared and got official orders from the military. I would have given them 4 weeks to one month's notice when everything was official.

I wouldn't be too concerned at this point, though, and I'm sure you'll be fine. Still, is there any way your job will let you stay on until you get medically cleared and get official orders? I would also actually call JAX and get a live person on the phone to see if you could get your Meps done quickly, but be really nice and gracious about it. Stay positive and things will work out as they should.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi all! First thank you all for sharing your insight and knowledge, it has been invaluable as I've navigated through the DAP process

I have a quick question for anyone who might know. I'm an AFJAG DAP select (not even sure that is the proper term). Been an attorney for some time and sent emails to JAX several times trying to gather information about when I will be leaving for COT. I needed the information because the types of cases I handle are time sensitive and my supervisors needed to reassign upcoming trials if I was not going to be around for them. Long story short JAX told me I was planned for the 1 Oct. COT class, so I informed my supervisors and effectively gave notice that I will be leaving come september so they could reassign the trials and the cases and victims wouldn't be adversely affected. Basically they are phasing me out.

It seems that now all I need to do is complete the MEPS physical and then be assigned to a base. My concern is that three weeks ago when I spoke to JAX they said I was next on being processed for MEPS and I still havent heard anything. I asked via email again today and again havent heard anything. My concern is that I wont get the phsyical done in time to get processed to make it to the October class. My husband (who is a 2LT pilot) is in San Antonio already while I am in California, and I have been delaying my move until I have a job there so we wouldn't suffer financially. Since they told me October I've now scheduled the move, effectively given notice, and if I cannot make it to the October class then I will be out of a job.

So my real question is am I being overly concerned? Should I continue contacting them or should I be concerned that I am annoying them with my emails so that I'm effectively delaying them from scheduling my MEPS exam? Anyone with insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all so much!


Not to alarm you, but personally I would not have told my employer (or anyone at my office for that matter) anything until I actually got medically cleared and got official orders from the military. I would have given them 4 weeks to one month's notice when everything was official.

I wouldn't be too concerned at this point, though, and I'm sure you'll be fine. Still, is there any way your job will let you stay on until you get medically cleared and get official orders? I would also call JAX to see if you could get your Meps done quickly.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi all! First thank you all for sharing your insight and knowledge, it has been invaluable as I've navigated through the DAP process

I have a quick question for anyone who might know. I'm an AFJAG DAP select (not even sure that is the proper term). Been an attorney for some time and sent emails to JAX several times trying to gather information about when I will be leaving for COT. I needed the information because the types of cases I handle are time sensitive and my supervisors needed to reassign upcoming trials if I was not going to be around for them. Long story short JAX told me I was planned for the 1 Oct. COT class, so I informed my supervisors and effectively gave notice that I will be leaving come september so they could reassign the trials and the cases and victims wouldn't be adversely affected. Basically they are phasing me out.

It seems that now all I need to do is complete the MEPS physical and then be assigned to a base. My concern is that three weeks ago when I spoke to JAX they said I was next on being processed for MEPS and I still havent heard anything. I asked via email again today and again havent heard anything. My concern is that I wont get the phsyical done in time to get processed to make it to the October class. My husband (who is a 2LT pilot) is in San Antonio already while I am in California, and I have been delaying my move until I have a job there so we wouldn't suffer financially. Since they told me October I've now scheduled the move, effectively given notice, and if I cannot make it to the October class then I will be out of a job.

So my real question is am I being overly concerned? Should I continue contacting them or should I be concerned that I am annoying them with my emails so that I'm effectively delaying them from scheduling my MEPS exam? Anyone with insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all so much!


Not to alarm you, but personally I would not have told my employer (or anyone at my office for that matter) anything until I actually got medically cleared and got official orders from the military. I would have given them 4 weeks to one month's notice when everything was official.

I wouldn't be too concerned and I'm sure you'll be fine, but still is there any way your job will let you stay on until you get medically cleared and get official orders? I would also call JAX to see if you could get your Meps done quickly too.



What he said x100000. I've talked to wayyyyy too many people that have been medically DQ'd for things they didn't even expect would be issues (or, at the least delayed for several months by the slow churn of bureaucratic progress to get waivers). This could include past medications, ER visits, abnormal EKG's, mental health conditions...the list is endless. And after MEPs it usually takes at least a couple of months to process the commissioning paperwork. I'm not as familiar with the AF process, but it's rarely as straightforward as going to MEPs and shipping out for officers. Good luck!

Backload

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Re: Military Law

Postby Backload » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi all! First thank you all for sharing your insight and knowledge, it has been invaluable as I've navigated through the DAP process

I have a quick question for anyone who might know. I'm an AFJAG DAP select (not even sure that is the proper term). Been an attorney for some time and sent emails to JAX several times trying to gather information about when I will be leaving for COT. I needed the information because the types of cases I handle are time sensitive and my supervisors needed to reassign upcoming trials if I was not going to be around for them. Long story short JAX told me I was planned for the 1 Oct. COT class, so I informed my supervisors and effectively gave notice that I will be leaving come september so they could reassign the trials and the cases and victims wouldn't be adversely affected. Basically they are phasing me out.

It seems that now all I need to do is complete the MEPS physical and then be assigned to a base. My concern is that three weeks ago when I spoke to JAX they said I was next on being processed for MEPS and I still havent heard anything. I asked via email again today and again havent heard anything. My concern is that I wont get the phsyical done in time to get processed to make it to the October class. My husband (who is a 2LT pilot) is in San Antonio already while I am in California, and I have been delaying my move until I have a job there so we wouldn't suffer financially. Since they told me October I've now scheduled the move, effectively given notice, and if I cannot make it to the October class then I will be out of a job.

So my real question is am I being overly concerned? Should I continue contacting them or should I be concerned that I am annoying them with my emails so that I'm effectively delaying them from scheduling my MEPS exam? Anyone with insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all so much!


Not to alarm you, but personally I would not have told my employer (or anyone at my office for that matter) anything until I actually got medically cleared and got official orders from the military. I would have given them 4 weeks to one month's notice when everything was official.

I wouldn't be too concerned and I'm sure you'll be fine, but still is there any way your job will let you stay on until you get medically cleared and get official orders? I would also call JAX to see if you could get your Meps done quickly too.



What he said x100000. I've talked to wayyyyy too many people that have been medically DQ'd for things they didn't even expect would be issues (or, at the least delayed for several months by the slow churn of bureaucratic progress to get waivers). This could include past medications, ER visits, abnormal EKG's, mental health conditions...the list is endless. And after MEPs it usually takes at least a couple of months to process the commissioning paperwork. I'm not as familiar with the AF process, but it's rarely as straightforward as going to MEPs and shipping out for officers. Good luck!


I ageee to everything said, but want to add something. Get all of your medical paperwork in line now. Anything that could possibly be seen as a red flag, get all the documentation for it.

I was delayed in going to MEPs until I got all my paperwork in line. But once I did and since I had everything, I was able to go to MEPs, get a waiver, and start COT all in the same month.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi all! First thank you all for sharing your insight and knowledge, it has been invaluable as I've navigated through the DAP process

I have a quick question for anyone who might know. I'm an AFJAG DAP select (not even sure that is the proper term). Been an attorney for some time and sent emails to JAX several times trying to gather information about when I will be leaving for COT. I needed the information because the types of cases I handle are time sensitive and my supervisors needed to reassign upcoming trials if I was not going to be around for them. Long story short JAX told me I was planned for the 1 Oct. COT class, so I informed my supervisors and effectively gave notice that I will be leaving come september so they could reassign the trials and the cases and victims wouldn't be adversely affected. Basically they are phasing me out.

It seems that now all I need to do is complete the MEPS physical and then be assigned to a base. My concern is that three weeks ago when I spoke to JAX they said I was next on being processed for MEPS and I still havent heard anything. I asked via email again today and again havent heard anything. My concern is that I wont get the phsyical done in time to get processed to make it to the October class. My husband (who is a 2LT pilot) is in San Antonio already while I am in California, and I have been delaying my move until I have a job there so we wouldn't suffer financially. Since they told me October I've now scheduled the move, effectively given notice, and if I cannot make it to the October class then I will be out of a job.

So my real question is am I being overly concerned? Should I continue contacting them or should I be concerned that I am annoying them with my emails so that I'm effectively delaying them from scheduling my MEPS exam? Anyone with insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all so much!


Not to alarm you, but personally I would not have told my employer (or anyone at my office for that matter) anything until I actually got medically cleared and got official orders from the military. I would have given them 4 weeks to one month's notice when everything was official.

I wouldn't be too concerned and I'm sure you'll be fine, but still is there any way your job will let you stay on until you get medically cleared and get official orders? I would also call JAX to see if you could get your Meps done quickly too.



What he said x100000. I've talked to wayyyyy too many people that have been medically DQ'd for things they didn't even expect would be issues (or, at the least delayed for several months by the slow churn of bureaucratic progress to get waivers). This could include past medications, ER visits, abnormal EKG's, mental health conditions...the list is endless. And after MEPs it usually takes at least a couple of months to process the commissioning paperwork. I'm not as familiar with the AF process, but it's rarely as straightforward as going to MEPs and shipping out for officers. Good luck!



Yep. I was actually told by JAG that this was a contingent offer and to NOT inform my employer I was leaving until I was medically cleared and I got orders. The recruiter told me that while it was likely I could get in an earlier session they cannot make promises because the process was so long (tons of paperwork and physical tests).
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:16 am

How long does MEPS usually take? I'm scheduled for this week and wondering if I should/can take my bar review materials for the wait. Also, any insight/tips on what to expect are welcome.

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Re: Military Law

Postby jcouce » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:26 am

Good morning everyone. I'm looking for advice on what my chances would be of getting into Air Force JAG. I understand that you can't be like I have a 23% chance but I was curious if I had a good chance, decent shot or not a very good chance. I'm going apply for the Graduate Law Program because I am set on knowing this is what I want to do.

My family escaped political oppression in Cuba (I'm Hispanic) and I am among the first generation to be born in this country. I can speak Spanish fairly good. My parents didn't go to college and my father served in the Marine Corps. I wanted to join because I am very proud to have been born in this country. I want to give back in as many ways as possible for a country that accepted my family in when they had nowhere else to go and were not safe in their own beds. I started giving back and volunteer to my community in 5th grade when I joined Boy Scouts and earned Eagle Scout my sophomore year in high school. I did my project on remodeling a volunteer fire department station in my community. I continued in Boy Scouts long after earning Eagle Scout in which I received Eagle Scout palms, Order of the Arrow, and a slew other awards. In December 2011, I decided to further give back to my community by joining a local volunteer first aid and rescue squad. I became trained as a emergency medical responder and have volunteered there for seven years and counting. I also was selected to and participated at American Legion Boys’ State in between my junior and senior year.

I started Ithaca College in 2014 and spent four years at there where I graduated with honors with a double major of Politics and Communications Studies. Since my family had to give up all their possessions to come to this country, I didn't grow up the best financial conditions (I grew up poor). I was selected for a scholarship program that gave me the financial ability to go to a four year school. In this scholarship program, each scholar is given the means to create a three year research project on their own and I participated in a tour of the Deep South, specifically a civil rights tour aligned with Dr. King’s movement there during my first year. I chose to study about inequalities within judicial systems all over the world. The school paid my expenses to travel to England, Cuba, and Ecuador. On each trip, I was able to speak with attorneys, professors, and government officials, like John Burcow (Speaker of the Commoners in the House of Parliament)/ Jorge Glas (Vice President of Ecuador) about each countries’ respective judicial system to incorporate it into my study of the US judicial system. To graduate from the scholarship program, I was expected to present my research and have it meet the strict standards in front of the program director and other college administration; including the president of the school. While I was not working on the scholarship, I was an RA, played club soccer, worked as a student justice (sat on student conduct review boards), and was a representative in student government. During my breaks and summer vacation, due to my financial limitations, I worked a job as a custodian at a public school district full time during the summer and subbed during other breaks (cleaned toilets and all the sorts of tasks most people don't want to do) and worked at grocery store on the weekends during the summer. I continued volunteering for the first aid and rescue squad (a part of my seven years) during overnights shifts. During the summer of 2018, I interned at a public defender’s office to gain some experience before I started in the fall at the University of Maryland School of Law.

To say the least, military service and being from this country means a great deal to me. I want to continue to give back to the United States to ensure that my future children and all future children will have the same freedoms and safety my family had living in this country rather than the unfortunate lack of freedom/safety I saw first hand in Cuba.

Maybe if any current JAGs or recently accepted JAG can tell me a little about their history prior to being accepted. Like work experience, public service, academics.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi all! First thank you all for sharing your insight and knowledge, it has been invaluable as I've navigated through the DAP process

I have a quick question for anyone who might know. I'm an AFJAG DAP select (not even sure that is the proper term). Been an attorney for some time and sent emails to JAX several times trying to gather information about when I will be leaving for COT. I needed the information because the types of cases I handle are time sensitive and my supervisors needed to reassign upcoming trials if I was not going to be around for them. Long story short JAX told me I was planned for the 1 Oct. COT class, so I informed my supervisors and effectively gave notice that I will be leaving come september so they could reassign the trials and the cases and victims wouldn't be adversely affected. Basically they are phasing me out.

It seems that now all I need to do is complete the MEPS physical and then be assigned to a base. My concern is that three weeks ago when I spoke to JAX they said I was next on being processed for MEPS and I still havent heard anything. I asked via email again today and again havent heard anything. My concern is that I wont get the phsyical done in time to get processed to make it to the October class. My husband (who is a 2LT pilot) is in San Antonio already while I am in California, and I have been delaying my move until I have a job there so we wouldn't suffer financially. Since they told me October I've now scheduled the move, effectively given notice, and if I cannot make it to the October class then I will be out of a job.

So my real question is am I being overly concerned? Should I continue contacting them or should I be concerned that I am annoying them with my emails so that I'm effectively delaying them from scheduling my MEPS exam? Anyone with insight into this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all so much!


Not to alarm you, but personally I would not have told my employer (or anyone at my office for that matter) anything until I actually got medically cleared and got official orders from the military. I would have given them 4 weeks to one month's notice when everything was official.

I wouldn't be too concerned at this point, though, and I'm sure you'll be fine. Still, is there any way your job will let you stay on until you get medically cleared and get official orders? I would also call JAX to see if you could get your Meps done quickly.


I didn't have much of a choice. I'm a prosecutor and if I wanted to retain a modicum of integrity I needed to let my employer know so that several murder and torture trials could be reassigned without harming the cases. Have you experienced this scenario where the major in charge of JAX told you which date you were planned for and then you didn't get processed timely? I'm just curious if anyone has experience with them moving slowly enough that they are unable to get processed timely. Thanks all


I completely understand where you're coming from, but just consider that JAG for any branch is an offer contingent on you being medically qualified and submitting all the proper paperwork and timely. You could be disqualified medically or you could have your offer revoked for other reasons like the other people said. Too many scenarios could happen I was told.

I mentioned earlier that I was actually told by JAG not to tell my employer yet (even though I was medically qualified) as they could not make any promises on which class they could put me in and they have to account for other people. But we were also asked how much notice 60 days, 30 days etc. did we need between getting official orders and time to end our current employment, move etc. Some people mentioned the process takes months and I've heard of cases where you could literally get qualified and asked to go in 2 weeks (in that case you could have informed the military that you need more time to wrap your cases up and ask to be deferred to a later COT class).

I still would check with JAX to see what can be done since you've put your employer on notice. I'm sure things will work out. Good luck.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:50 am

jcouce wrote:Good morning everyone. I'm looking for advice on what my chances would be of getting into Air Force JAG. I understand that you can't be like I have a 23% chance but I was curious if I had a good chance, decent shot or not a very good chance. I'm going apply for the Graduate Law Program because I am set on knowing this is what I want to do.

My family escaped political oppression in Cuba (I'm Hispanic) and I am among the first generation to be born in this country. I can speak Spanish fairly good. My parents didn't go to college and my father served in the Marine Corps. I wanted to join because I am very proud to have been born in this country. I want to give back in as many ways as possible for a country that accepted my family in when they had nowhere else to go and were not safe in their own beds. I started giving back and volunteer to my community in 5th grade when I joined Boy Scouts and earned Eagle Scout my sophomore year in high school. I did my project on remodeling a volunteer fire department station in my community. I continued in Boy Scouts long after earning Eagle Scout in which I received Eagle Scout palms, Order of the Arrow, and a slew other awards. In December 2011, I decided to further give back to my community by joining a local volunteer first aid and rescue squad. I became trained as a emergency medical responder and have volunteered there for seven years and counting. I also was selected to and participated at American Legion Boys’ State in between my junior and senior year.

I started Ithaca College in 2014 and spent four years at there where I graduated with honors with a double major of Politics and Communications Studies. Since my family had to give up all their possessions to come to this country, I didn't grow up the best financial conditions (I grew up poor). I was selected for a scholarship program that gave me the financial ability to go to a four year school. In this scholarship program, each scholar is given the means to create a three year research project on their own and I participated in a tour of the Deep South, specifically a civil rights tour aligned with Dr. King’s movement there during my first year. I chose to study about inequalities within judicial systems all over the world. The school paid my expenses to travel to England, Cuba, and Ecuador. On each trip, I was able to speak with attorneys, professors, and government officials, like John Burcow (Speaker of the Commoners in the House of Parliament)/ Jorge Glas (Vice President of Ecuador) about each countries’ respective judicial system to incorporate it into my study of the US judicial system. To graduate from the scholarship program, I was expected to present my research and have it meet the strict standards in front of the program director and other college administration; including the president of the school. While I was not working on the scholarship, I was an RA, played club soccer, worked as a student justice (sat on student conduct review boards), and was a representative in student government. During my breaks and summer vacation, due to my financial limitations, I worked a job as a custodian at a public school district full time during the summer and subbed during other breaks (cleaned toilets and all the sorts of tasks most people don't want to do) and worked at grocery store on the weekends during the summer. I continued volunteering for the first aid and rescue squad (a part of my seven years) during overnights shifts. During the summer of 2018, I interned at a public defender’s office to gain some experience before I started in the fall at the University of Maryland School of Law.

To say the least, military service and being from this country means a great deal to me. I want to continue to give back to the United States to ensure that my future children and all future children will have the same freedoms and safety my family had living in this country rather than the unfortunate lack of freedom/safety I saw first hand in Cuba.

Maybe if any current JAGs or recently accepted JAG can tell me a little about their history prior to being accepted. Like work experience, public service, academics.


First, I would consider all the potential JAGs in every branch because it's competitive. I think you have as good a chance as anyone else. They seem to be interested in public service in the U.S. and leadership skills. Also how you well you work with other people (lawyers and non-lawyers) and if you fit into the military. Also you have to be in reasonable shape or working towards being physically fit, but your father could tell you all about what to expect on that side including the "military culture." Good luck.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:33 pm

For jcouce and other posters, let me offer one thought - please consider how much specific personal info you wish to provide in your posts. The more PII type specific details offered, the easier it is to match your online posts to your actual application down the road. I've been aware of TPTB viewing these forums in the past.

Just my $.02

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:44 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:For jcouce and other posters, let me offer one thought - please consider how much specific personal info you wish to provide in your posts. The more PII type specific details offered, the easier it is to match your online posts to your actual application down the road. I've been aware of TPTB viewing these forums in the past.

Just my $.02


Agreed about any personal info. To add, there is an edit feature on the posts (looks like a pencil in the upper right hand corner) where you can edit your post if you have any 2nd thoughts on info you wrote.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:03 pm

jcouce wrote:Good morning everyone. I'm looking for advice on what my chances would be of getting into Air Force JAG. I understand that you can't be like I have a 23% chance but I was curious if I had a good chance, decent shot or not a very good chance. I'm going apply for the Graduate Law Program because I am set on knowing this is what I want to do.

My family escaped political oppression in Cuba (I'm Hispanic) and I am among the first generation to be born in this country. I can speak Spanish fairly good. My parents didn't go to college and my father served in the Marine Corps. I wanted to join because I am very proud to have been born in this country. I want to give back in as many ways as possible for a country that accepted my family in when they had nowhere else to go and were not safe in their own beds. I started giving back and volunteer to my community in 5th grade when I joined Boy Scouts and earned Eagle Scout my sophomore year in high school. I did my project on remodeling a volunteer fire department station in my community. I continued in Boy Scouts long after earning Eagle Scout in which I received Eagle Scout palms, Order of the Arrow, and a slew other awards. In December 2011, I decided to further give back to my community by joining a local volunteer first aid and rescue squad. I became trained as a emergency medical responder and have volunteered there for seven years and counting. I also was selected to and participated at American Legion Boys’ State in between my junior and senior year.

I started Ithaca College in 2014 and spent four years at there where I graduated with honors with a double major of Politics and Communications Studies. Since my family had to give up all their possessions to come to this country, I didn't grow up the best financial conditions (I grew up poor). I was selected for a scholarship program that gave me the financial ability to go to a four year school. In this scholarship program, each scholar is given the means to create a three year research project on their own and I participated in a tour of the Deep South, specifically a civil rights tour aligned with Dr. King’s movement there during my first year. I chose to study about inequalities within judicial systems all over the world. The school paid my expenses to travel to England, Cuba, and Ecuador. On each trip, I was able to speak with attorneys, professors, and government officials, like John Burcow (Speaker of the Commoners in the House of Parliament)/ Jorge Glas (Vice President of Ecuador) about each countries’ respective judicial system to incorporate it into my study of the US judicial system. To graduate from the scholarship program, I was expected to present my research and have it meet the strict standards in front of the program director and other college administration; including the president of the school. While I was not working on the scholarship, I was an RA, played club soccer, worked as a student justice (sat on student conduct review boards), and was a representative in student government. During my breaks and summer vacation, due to my financial limitations, I worked a job as a custodian at a public school district full time during the summer and subbed during other breaks (cleaned toilets and all the sorts of tasks most people don't want to do) and worked at grocery store on the weekends during the summer. I continued volunteering for the first aid and rescue squad (a part of my seven years) during overnights shifts. During the summer of 2018, I interned at a public defender’s office to gain some experience before I started in the fall at the University of Maryland School of Law.

To say the least, military service and being from this country means a great deal to me. I want to continue to give back to the United States to ensure that my future children and all future children will have the same freedoms and safety my family had living in this country rather than the unfortunate lack of freedom/safety I saw first hand in Cuba.

Maybe if any current JAGs or recently accepted JAG can tell me a little about their history prior to being accepted. Like work experience, public service, academics.


Seems like you have a pretty impressive resume. Keep in mind that each branch's acceptance rate usually hovers around 10% (sometimes more, sometimes less) and applicants are often accepted after submitting several applications...so don't be discouraged if you're not picked up right away. It's important to stress your motivation for applying, not simply telling your story. While your story is compelling, the boards that review your application will be asking "what does this applicant bring to our service?" I recommend applying for an internship with the one of the branches during law school...it can be a strain because they're usually unpaid (unsure about AF, but I know Navy started a paid one this year but it wasn't really well publicized). I would encourage you also to apply to the other branches too. Having your heart set on the Air Force is great, but with how competitive it is (and I think AF is traditionally one of the most competitive), applying to other branches is good insurance. I think the AF allows you to apply starting your 1L year (AF people will have to check me on that), Navy accepts applicants 1st semester of 2L year, the Marines you can apply to even before law school, and you'll have to check on the Army and CG.

As you're about to start law school, you don't really know what your grades will be like. Grades are pretty important, but having a 4.0 won't necessarily make you a shoe in. I know plenty of really smart people from the top law schools that get rejected every year, and plenty of people with average grades from average T100 law schools that get accepted. The boards will really look closely at having a documented dedication to public service (and continuing this while in law school, which it seems like you have done). They also want to see an interest in the military while in law school...if you wait until your 3L year or until after you've graduated to apply, while saying "I've always wanted to be a JAG," the boards will wonder why, if you've always wanted to be a JAG you're just now applying. Each branch is competitive and none of them want to be a backup plan should your dreams of making the big bucks in biglaw fall through (this is probably a little bit less-so the case for the Marine Corps as they don't have an internship program....but if you're going to apply to the Marines then you should start doing pull-ups now, as your PRT scores are one of the most important things they look at). Finally, as I said before...look into the other services too. Each has some unique differences, like geographic location, but when it comes down to it, you're essentially doing the same work in each branch. Good luck!

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:06 pm

howell wrote:I'm curious what happens if they don't get enough volunteers. I hope they know better than to volun-tell people to go, but I won't assume that won't happen.

And then there are the JAGs working on bases that will become detainment centers. Our installation was asked whether we could hold a few hundred undocumented immigrants after a round-up. We are far from the border in question.

This is the first time I've questioned whether I can continue in my job despite disagreement with political policies. In most things we do, we're at least the voice of reason (or law). For example, even if a JAG disagreed with the reasons for being in a particular conflict, the closest we get to things would typically be something like targeting, where all we're doing is trying to enforce the law of war. Getting involved in immigration in this way feels too far afield from what we should be doing. Very few organizations protect their image like the military does (we literally put people in jail for tarnishing it). I don't see how we avoid taking a significant hit for involvement here.


Doesn't being an attorney for the government even in the military mean that you have to be apolitical and it's to be expected? Even as a lawyer in general practice, you have to sort of be neutral and look at things from an entirely legal perspective. There are lot of internal things that you see at agencies (harassment, ethics issues etc.) as well that people don't agree with, but people stay and hopefully work towards changing things as reasonably possible.

Otherwise why not just work as an attorney for a Senator or Congressperson; or run for political office and you can really have some say in the law/policy. I'm not attacking you at all for your statement, by the way, and I hope it doesn't come off like that. Just intellectual curiosity. :)
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:35 pm

jcouce wrote:Good morning everyone. I'm looking for advice on what my chances would be of getting into Air Force JAG. I understand that you can't be like I have a 23% chance but I was curious if I had a good chance, decent shot or not a very good chance. I'm going apply for the Graduate Law Program because I am set on knowing this is what I want to do.

My family escaped political oppression in Cuba (I'm Hispanic) and I am among the first generation to be born in this country. I can speak Spanish fairly good. My parents didn't go to college and my father served in the Marine Corps. I wanted to join because I am very proud to have been born in this country. I want to give back in as many ways as possible for a country that accepted my family in when they had nowhere else to go and were not safe in their own beds. I started giving back and volunteer to my community in 5th grade when I joined Boy Scouts and earned Eagle Scout my sophomore year in high school. I did my project on remodeling a volunteer fire department station in my community. I continued in Boy Scouts long after earning Eagle Scout in which I received Eagle Scout palms, Order of the Arrow, and a slew other awards. In December 2011, I decided to further give back to my community by joining a local volunteer first aid and rescue squad. I became trained as a emergency medical responder and have volunteered there for seven years and counting. I also was selected to and participated at American Legion Boys’ State in between my junior and senior year.

I started Ithaca College in 2014 and spent four years at there where I graduated with honors with a double major of Politics and Communications Studies. Since my family had to give up all their possessions to come to this country, I didn't grow up the best financial conditions (I grew up poor). I was selected for a scholarship program that gave me the financial ability to go to a four year school. In this scholarship program, each scholar is given the means to create a three year research project on their own and I participated in a tour of the Deep South, specifically a civil rights tour aligned with Dr. King’s movement there during my first year. I chose to study about inequalities within judicial systems all over the world. The school paid my expenses to travel to England, Cuba, and Ecuador. On each trip, I was able to speak with attorneys, professors, and government officials, like John Burcow (Speaker of the Commoners in the House of Parliament)/ Jorge Glas (Vice President of Ecuador) about each countries’ respective judicial system to incorporate it into my study of the US judicial system. To graduate from the scholarship program, I was expected to present my research and have it meet the strict standards in front of the program director and other college administration; including the president of the school. While I was not working on the scholarship, I was an RA, played club soccer, worked as a student justice (sat on student conduct review boards), and was a representative in student government. During my breaks and summer vacation, due to my financial limitations, I worked a job as a custodian at a public school district full time during the summer and subbed during other breaks (cleaned toilets and all the sorts of tasks most people don't want to do) and worked at grocery store on the weekends during the summer. I continued volunteering for the first aid and rescue squad (a part of my seven years) during overnights shifts. During the summer of 2018, I interned at a public defender’s office to gain some experience before I started in the fall at the University of Maryland School of Law.

To say the least, military service and being from this country means a great deal to me. I want to continue to give back to the United States to ensure that my future children and all future children will have the same freedoms and safety my family had living in this country rather than the unfortunate lack of freedom/safety I saw first hand in Cuba.

Maybe if any current JAGs or recently accepted JAG can tell me a little about their history prior to being accepted. Like work experience, public service, academics.



Read the previous posts about disclosing too much information about yourself...Just by reading your username and the statement you wrote I'm 99.99% sure I know your older brother. :shock:



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