Military Law

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froglaw23

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Re: Military Law

Postby froglaw23 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:29 am

In filling out the AF base preference sheet does anyone have recommendations for bases that would be more suitable to get good first assignment experience (military justice area especially).

From my conversation with past JAGS their suggestions have been Lackland, Scott, Sheppard, and possibly Charleston.

In reviewing the recent information on Courts-Martial on the AF web page it seems that Hurlburt Field, Holloman, Nellis, Davis-Monthan have been some of the busier bases. Just don't know how much that information is helpful in determining what a good first assignment base would be. I'm less concerned with a great geographic area (I live in ND right now) and want have a preference sheet that gives me a shot at getting great experience. (although I know they may laugh at it and do whatever they want). Thanks!

Backload

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Re: Military Law

Postby Backload » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:09 am

froglaw23 wrote:In filling out the AF base preference sheet does anyone have recommendations for bases that would be more suitable to get good first assignment experience (military justice area especially).

From my conversation with past JAGS their suggestions have been Lackland, Scott, Sheppard, and possibly Charleston.

In reviewing the recent information on Courts-Martial on the AF web page it seems that Hurlburt Field, Holloman, Nellis, Davis-Monthan have been some of the busier bases. Just don't know how much that information is helpful in determining what a good first assignment base would be. I'm less concerned with a great geographic area (I live in ND right now) and want have a preference sheet that gives me a shot at getting great experience. (although I know they may laugh at it and do whatever they want). Thanks!


It seems like you are already doing good searching for justice heavy bases. You can go to specific base websites and see how many courts they have done in the past years. That will give you a good idea of how busy. Then look at how large the base is. Big AD population, then normally a larger legal office. You will still get a lot of experience at a larger legal office but courts might go to other counsel who are not certified yet.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:09 pm

froglaw23 wrote:In filling out the AF base preference sheet does anyone have recommendations for bases that would be more suitable to get good first assignment experience (military justice area especially).

From my conversation with past JAGS their suggestions have been Lackland, Scott, Sheppard, and possibly Charleston.

In reviewing the recent information on Courts-Martial on the AF web page it seems that Hurlburt Field, Holloman, Nellis, Davis-Monthan have been some of the busier bases. Just don't know how much that information is helpful in determining what a good first assignment base would be. I'm less concerned with a great geographic area (I live in ND right now) and want have a preference sheet that gives me a shot at getting great experience. (although I know they may laugh at it and do whatever they want). Thanks!


Those are all generally solid MJ bases. Holloman I think is a bit of a one off -- they are an ACC base, so you get your active flying mission and all the justice that comes with that, but it is a smaller wing compared to the others here. You will find that some bases just hit a high court streak any given year - the next year it may be far more quiet. That said, it is a solid base overall - some amazing skiing in Ruidoso, a great gym on base, and fairly close to El Paso (I spent a good amount of time there previously).

While it is awesome you are flexible with geography, I would not totally discount it -- it is fine putting the busier bases in less great locations (Lackland, Sheppard) but you might as well put some emphasis on the nicer places to live. I would also note that there are some busy OCONUS bases as well - Ramstein, Lakenheath, Yokota, Kadena, Hickam, (and maybe Andersen as well).

Also, here is a discussion on the same subject from 2012:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31543&p=7149224&hilit=nellis#p7149224

A bit of an aside here but still may be relevant: I'd be curious if Howell or any of the other experienced folks have thoughts on this but my personal experience at my first assignment have made me a bit more cautious on recommending the huge offices to start with. The perils of a large base legal office (Nellis, Ramstein, Travis, Lackland) is that it can be difficult to stand out in the right way as a first assignment. Depending on your leadership, preference for schools, awards, and other things might be going to the second assignments, who are, by nature, more senior and more experienced - you will get substantive work, for sure, but the environment is different. I honestly think this is more a factor of SJA/DSJA than the size of the office itself, but being a first assignment in an assembly line office like Lackland is a very different experience than a smaller office that is maybe 4-5 CGOs.

That is more a thought for discussion than any sort of warning for the OP -- if you want justice, the bigger/busier bases are where you will likely get it. Those are all solid picks for what you want to go into. Good luck!

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Re: Military Law

Postby Backload » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:51 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
froglaw23 wrote:In filling out the AF base preference sheet does anyone have recommendations for bases that would be more suitable to get good first assignment experience (military justice area especially).

From my conversation with past JAGS their suggestions have been Lackland, Scott, Sheppard, and possibly Charleston.

In reviewing the recent information on Courts-Martial on the AF web page it seems that Hurlburt Field, Holloman, Nellis, Davis-Monthan have been some of the busier bases. Just don't know how much that information is helpful in determining what a good first assignment base would be. I'm less concerned with a great geographic area (I live in ND right now) and want have a preference sheet that gives me a shot at getting great experience. (although I know they may laugh at it and do whatever they want). Thanks!


Those are all generally solid MJ bases. Holloman I think is a bit of a one off -- they are an ACC base, so you get your active flying mission and all the justice that comes with that, but it is a smaller wing compared to the others here. You will find that some bases just hit a high court streak any given year - the next year it may be far more quiet. That said, it is a solid base overall - some amazing skiing in Ruidoso, a great gym on base, and fairly close to El Paso (I spent a good amount of time there previously).

While it is awesome you are flexible with geography, I would not totally discount it -- it is fine putting the busier bases in less great locations (Lackland, Sheppard) but you might as well put some emphasis on the nicer places to live. I would also note that there are some busy OCONUS bases as well - Ramstein, Lakenheath, Yokota, Kadena, Hickam, (and maybe Andersen as well).

Also, here is a discussion on the same subject from 2012:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... s#p7149224

A bit of an aside here but still may be relevant: I'd be curious if Howell or any of the other experienced folks have thoughts on this but my personal experience at my first assignment have made me a bit more cautious on recommending the huge offices to start with. The perils of a large base legal office (Nellis, Ramstein, Travis, Lackland) is that it can be difficult to stand out in the right way as a first assignment. Depending on your leadership, preference for schools, awards, and other things might be going to the second assignments, who are, by nature, more senior and more experienced - you will get substantive work, for sure, but the environment is different. I honestly think this is more a factor of SJA/DSJA than the size of the office itself, but being a first assignment in an assembly line office like Lackland is a very different experience than a smaller office that is maybe 4-5 CGOs.

That is more a thought for discussion than any sort of warning for the OP -- if you want justice, the bigger/busier bases are where you will likely get it. Those are all solid picks for what you want to go into. Good luck!


You can always put justice on your dream sheet. I think it still lists practice type. I do think most new accessions do put justice though. Just really emphasize it when you talk to accessions.

I think a smaller base has some goods and downs. Good you get great experience on all issues coming through your office since the Manning isn’t there. Meaning you most likely will rotate through civ law and justice. You get closer to your deputy and sja and get a lot of hands on experience with commanders which is extremely valuable to learn about the actual AF and know how to talk to them.

There are some drawbacks for a smaller base. If there is not a lot of justice then you may be struggling to get certified. It doesn’t happen for everyone and it’s nothing to look down on, it just depends on your base. You can always search out for cases at other busier bases. I haven’t gone to others but counsel has augmented our base because of the case load. Another drawback is that there might not be experienced cgos. All cgos at a small base might be first termers. It’s not bad but it means a lot of circuit counsel and not a quick easy helper for you.

As you can see my first assignment was small base so I don’t have the knowledge on larger bases.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:34 pm

Quick question. Tentatively scheduled for October 18' class for Army JAG, and have medical evaluation in just about a month. What happens if I do not satisfy the height-weight requirements, and tape test doesn't save me? I have been dieting and working out since January, but not sure I will cut it by DODMETS evaluation. Is the drop deadline the initial DODMETS medical evaluation, or is it when we report to training?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Quick question. Tentatively scheduled for October 18' class for Army JAG, and have medical evaluation in just about a month. What happens if I do not satisfy the height-weight requirements, and tape test doesn't save me? I have been dieting and working out since January, but not sure I will cut it by DODMETS evaluation. Is the drop deadline the initial DODMETS medical evaluation, or is it when we report to training?


You will have to complete a DA 5500/5501 form with your medical packet. If you don’t meet the requirements, meaning you aren’t in compliance with the weight requirements, you will not be able to move forward with the process until you turn in a passing form. You may not be able to make the October class. Keep dieting and exercising and consider trying to make the January class.

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howell

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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:34 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:A bit of an aside here but still may be relevant: I'd be curious if Howell or any of the other experienced folks have thoughts on this but my personal experience at my first assignment have made me a bit more cautious on recommending the huge offices to start with. The perils of a large base legal office (Nellis, Ramstein, Travis, Lackland) is that it can be difficult to stand out in the right way as a first assignment. Depending on your leadership, preference for schools, awards, and other things might be going to the second assignments, who are, by nature, more senior and more experienced - you will get substantive work, for sure, but the environment is different. I honestly think this is more a factor of SJA/DSJA than the size of the office itself, but being a first assignment in an assembly line office like Lackland is a very different experience than a smaller office that is maybe 4-5 CGOs.

That is more a thought for discussion than any sort of warning for the OP -- if you want justice, the bigger/busier bases are where you will likely get it. Those are all solid picks for what you want to go into. Good luck!

I never worked in one of the big offices, but that's certainly possible. I think it's more the SJA/DSJA issue like you said than anything. Unfortunately, we can't tell JAX who's on our naughty list. I would also think if people see you coming out of Lackland, you might not be lighting up the strats, but getting 15 courts in your first assignment or whatever will have plenty of benefits. I would lean towards a larger base, because you'll be more likely to get the experience that can get you out of the base legal office for your second assignment.

And you were right about Holloman. They had a few drug rings in 2017 that decimated that office. They were down to 1-3 Capts for long stretches while facing the most courts-martial in the Air Force. That's one of the risks of a "smaller" base. If you have 5 Capts or fewer, having 2-3 (or more) out on leave, TDY, etc. will make your life hell if you're the one staying behind. Even more so if everyone left behind is a first assignment Capt. If there are 8 Capts rolling around, you're much less likely to be the Chief of Everything for a week or two.

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Re: Military Law

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:38 pm

Either Howell or PB mentioned that there are good books out there to read about the Air Force/military in general. I was wondering if either of you could provide a list of ones you'd recommend!

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:46 am

RedPurpleBlue wrote:Either Howell or PB mentioned that there are good books out there to read about the Air Force/military in general. I was wondering if either of you could provide a list of ones you'd recommend!


CJCS, CSAF, and the other senior leaders all have reading lists they put out each year. Generally solid picks that are not limited to just military topics - it is worth looking through and picking those you think you might enjoy (and before you all go out dropping hard earned money on Amazon, check out your local [or military base] library. If hardcovers are not your scene, most now can get you Kindle and Audio editions for free as well -- an amazing and often overlooked resource in our modern times).

http://static.dma.mil/usaf/csafreadinglist/

http://www.ndu.edu/Libraries/Profession ... ding-List/

https://jsou.libguides.com/readinglists

https://taskandpurpose.com/30-books-mat ... eeds-read/

When I was coming in, I remember really enjoying One Bullet Away, Joker One, and House to House. These are all written by combat arms vets - obviously as JAG desk jockeys our experiences as staff officers are a world away but they are compelling reads and you can learn a lot. I do not know how well they have aged (keep in mind I was doing this ~10 years ago now), but as someone who had no real military background, I also liked Robert Kaplan's books and writing style which, as a journalist, was friendly to a civilian audience in terms of military terms of art and idioms. Specifically, Imperial Grunts and Hog Pilots, Blue Water Grunts are a good sort of immersion brief.

There are also some incredible military blogs that I try to keep up with - off the top of my head: Task & Purpose, Small Wars Journal, and War on the Rocks.

For those looking to get into MJ, I used to recommend CAAFLog. In my candid opinion, the "analysis" and comment sections have devolved into an echo chamber of nonsense. That said, I do still look at it once or twice a week to make sure I am tracking on the latest caselaw developments. My recommendation to just review the actual court opinions and briefs if something interests you.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:14 pm

Does anyone know when the JARO board is going to meet for guard selection?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:16 pm

Also, I go in front of a FED REC board here in a few weeks for an Army JAG slot. I am told that I just show up, answer a few questions, and then I swear in. Is that easy? Is there anything I need to do to prepare?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:01 pm

I was hoping to get some insight on my chances of selection for the various branches. Here is a breakdown of my creds.

3.1 law school GPA
Top 60 school (the name seems to have more credibility than our ranking would suggest)
3.91 UGPA at a school basically nobody has heard of (also a DII athlete)
Trial team hopeful for the next academic year; Veteran's Legal Society Member; 1L student mentor
150 LSAT

Research Assistant
I have an AF internship this summer
Last summer I externed for a Magistrate

Prior Service Army Officer as an MP
Really good OERs and I never scored below a 300 on our APFT; Air Assault
ROTC Distinguished Military Grad (#44 in the country in my YG)

I am hoping more weight is given to my prior service than my law school performance.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also, I go in front of a FED REC board here in a few weeks for an Army JAG slot. I am told that I just show up, answer a few questions, and then I swear in. Is that easy? Is there anything I need to do to prepare?

I did the fed rec board earlier this year. I'm sure results may vary, but my recruiter described it to me as a rubber stamp; you've already cleared the big hurdles and this is the final thing. At my board, four people appeared before the board, and all four swore in the same day. It was a very standard thing, if you've ever done a panel interview before you'll be fine.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, I go in front of a FED REC board here in a few weeks for an Army JAG slot. I am told that I just show up, answer a few questions, and then I swear in. Is that easy? Is there anything I need to do to prepare?

I did the fed rec board earlier this year. I'm sure results may vary, but my recruiter described it to me as a rubber stamp; you've already cleared the big hurdles and this is the final thing. At my board, four people appeared before the board, and all four swore in the same day. It was a very standard thing, if you've ever done a panel interview before you'll be fine.


How long did your portion take? How many questions?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:10 pm

OYCP Select Here.

For those that have not yet been told, my DET informed me today that all OYCP candidates would be attending MAX 3 this summer and FTAP prior to. The dates that we were provided were 13JUN18-3JUL18. Hope this helps some out for planning purposes.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Also, I go in front of a FED REC board here in a few weeks for an Army JAG slot. I am told that I just show up, answer a few questions, and then I swear in. Is that easy? Is there anything I need to do to prepare?

I did the fed rec board earlier this year. I'm sure results may vary, but my recruiter described it to me as a rubber stamp; you've already cleared the big hurdles and this is the final thing. At my board, four people appeared before the board, and all four swore in the same day. It was a very standard thing, if you've ever done a panel interview before you'll be fine.


How long did your portion take? How many questions?

Original responder here. It was three board members; one AG captain from my state, an active duty JAG full bird, and a JAG LTC from my state's joint force headquarters element. It was about 15-20 minutes. They clearly had pre-written standard questions that they asked everyone. (1) Why do you want to be a JA? (2) What do you do for physical fitness? (3) What's your biggest strength as a lawyer and your biggest area for improvement? Also (4) where do you see yourself in five years? Do you want to make the Army a career?

Stuff like that. I also had some specific questions aimed at me because I was already serving as a non-JAG branch officer in my state's ARNG, so I had some "why are you transitioning" type questions.

If you've never done a military board before, it might come off as intimidating, but it's seriously not bad at all. As I said, everyone I interviewed with got the rubber stamp that day and swore in.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:00 pm

Are non-medical waivers handled upfront, during the application process? Or on the backend, after being selected? (I previously quit a commissioning program and require a waiver for reenlistment)

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Re: Military Law

Postby Houzy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OYCP Select Here.

For those that have not yet been told, my DET informed me today that all OYCP candidates would be attending MAX 3 this summer and FTAP prior to. The dates that we were provided were 13JUN18-3JUL18. Hope this helps some out for planning purposes.


Do you know if this strictly for OYCP selects or for GLP selects as well?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:53 am

Houzy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OYCP Select Here.

For those that have not yet been told, my DET informed me today that all OYCP candidates would be attending MAX 3 this summer and FTAP prior to. The dates that we were provided were 13JUN18-3JUL18. Hope this helps some out for planning purposes.


Do you know if this strictly for OYCP selects or for GLP selects as well?


I can't say for certain. But my understanding is there is only one MAX that has FTAP. So if you're a GLP going to FT this summer, my bet would be that these are the same dates for you.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Illini07 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:59 pm

Hello. I’m a 2L and JAG hopeful with a whole bunch of questions specific to my particular situation. Long story short, I served in the Active Duty Army for 9 years; 2 enlisted, 7 officer. I left explicitly with the hopes of returning to the active duty military (any branch) as a JA, and I currently serve as an officer in the Army Reserve. I have found the answers to many of my questions related to the process of returning to active duty from the reserve component, but I have some specific promotion/time in service/time in grade questions and I’m wondering if there’s anyone on here who has already done what I am attempting to do that would be willing to shoot me a message to start a dialogue. At this point, I feel like the Air Force is where I will likely end up (if I am fortunate enough to make the cut), so finding someone who went Army officer to Air Force JAG would be the most helpful for my specific questions. Thank you very much for any assistance.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Mobster1983 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:34 am

Illini07 wrote:Hello. I’m a 2L and JAG hopeful with a whole bunch of questions specific to my particular situation. Long story short, I served in the Active Duty Army for 9 years; 2 enlisted, 7 officer. I left explicitly with the hopes of returning to the active duty military (any branch) as a JA, and I currently serve as an officer in the Army Reserve. I have found the answers to many of my questions related to the process of returning to active duty from the reserve component, but I have some specific promotion/time in service/time in grade questions and I’m wondering if there’s anyone on here who has already done what I am attempting to do that would be willing to shoot me a message to start a dialogue. At this point, I feel like the Air Force is where I will likely end up (if I am fortunate enough to make the cut), so finding someone who went Army officer to Air Force JAG would be the most helpful for my specific questions. Thank you very much for any assistance.


I'm in the almost exact situation. 9 years AD as an officer, 2 AF and 7 Army Infantry. Got out to go to law school and stayed in the Guard. Promoted to O-4. Currently doing a state court clerkship and submitted my application for AF JAG. Waiting on board results now.

From my understanding your guard/reserve time counts towards your total time in service for pay (which is awesome). I asked the SJA I interviewed with about the rank and he followed up with JAG HQs. They said I will probably keep my rank, and I would assume time in grade. They could not guarantee that however. Basically if I am selected then they will review my military records to make that determination then.

Feel free to PM me so I have your info and I can fill you in if I am selected.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:18 pm

Mobster1983 wrote:I'm in the almost exact situation. 9 years AD as an officer, 2 AF and 7 Army Infantry. Got out to go to law school and stayed in the Guard. Promoted to O-4. Currently doing a state court clerkship and submitted my application for AF JAG. Waiting on board results now.

From my understanding your guard/reserve time counts towards your total time in service for pay (which is awesome). I asked the SJA I interviewed with about the rank and he followed up with JAG HQs. They said I will probably keep my rank, and I would assume time in grade. They could not guarantee that however. Basically if I am selected then they will review my military records to make that determination then.

Feel free to PM me so I have your info and I can fill you in if I am selected.



I wouldn't be so sure that you will get to keep your rank. Here is an excerpt from an email during last year's RC accessions processing:

To those of you to which this applies:

1. For those officers with 5 or more years TIG at the current rank of CPT, you will need to be amenable to accepting a new appointment into the Reserve Component JAG Corps at the rank of CPT with no more than 4 years TIG for promotion purposes.

2. Purpose: To provide you with at least two (2) annual OERs as a Judge Advocate (JA) prior to your promotion look for MAJ. This will provide you with two (2) years to garner competitive evaluations (specific to your service as an military attorney) and satisfy your Judge Advocate pre-requisite educational requirements. The educational requirements normally will take an average of one (1) year to complete.

3. I want to make sure you are aware of this condition of appointment. Your initial notice of commission offer indicated that you would be required to accept an adjusted date of rank and this is a follow up reminder of that requirement. I want to make sure you have this information in hand prior to your decision to accept a RC Judge Advocate appointment. This is not a waivable condition and clearly is something that you need to consider prior to moving forward.

4. I would be happy to discuss this matter with anyone who needs to. So I can track who would like to speak with me, I ask that you forward me an email with your contact number and a good time to call and I will reach out to discuss your options.

5. if you are not willing to accept this condition of appointment please let me know ASAP and I will remove you from the appointment process.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:06 pm

May anybody here mention how long it took for their Secret-level clearance to go through? I'm sure the answer is "it depends," but just trying to gauge the average wait time.

Does anybody know of any horror stories in which a JAG's clearance was denied? It's pretty much the only thing standing in the way of me and my first assignment -- and it's difficult not to psyche myself over all the foreign travel I've done over the years :roll:

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:May anybody here mention how long it took for their Secret-level clearance to go through? I'm sure the answer is "it depends," but just trying to gauge the average wait time.

Does anybody know of any horror stories in which a JAG's clearance was denied? It's pretty much the only thing standing in the way of me and my first assignment -- and it's difficult not to psyche myself over all the foreign travel I've done over the years :roll:

Current JA, formerly an officer in a branch that required every soldier to have at least a secret. I'll qualify this by saying it's purely anecdotal, but it's really hard to not get cleared for secret unless you have serious, serious financial issues or a criminal history. I have a family friend who grew up overseas with one American parent and one European parent, lived mainly in various Middle Eastern countries until he was 18, didn't become a U.S. citizen until he was in his early 20s, and he had no problem getting a TS to fly jets in the Air Force. As long as you don't have a history of travelling frequently and recently to countries with robust anti-US espionage operations it's a non-issue. And even if you do, OPM will likely just followup with you in person about the travel.

The only stuff that'll basically auto-ding you for a secret clearance is financial leverage; liens against you, court orders for child support that have been ignored, big alimony/child support arrears, documented gambling addiction, and violent criminal charges.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Mobster1983 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:[

I wouldn't be so sure that you will get to keep your rank. Here is an excerpt from an email during last year's RC accessions processing:


Thank you for that information, it is good to know. Little different from my situation as that appears to be for the reserve component, which handles things a bit differently than AD. Also, I am aleady a MAJ, and that seems to apply to Captains who’s TIS makes them eligible for MAJ. The purpose appears to be making sure they have 2 OERs as JAGs so they are competitive for selection to Major, not to start them out as a Captain.


And I am definitely not “sure” that I will keep my rank, just hoping. ;-)



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