Military Law

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:40 am

Labrador911 wrote:Any suggestions to prep for the PFT if you have two months?


For the Marines?

If so, it's going to depend on where you're at. I can't verify this but I've heard that to get accepted for OCS you need to be testing at LEAST a 250, with 280+ being ideal.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:21 am

Labrador911 wrote:Any suggestions to prep for the PFT if you have two months?


What's your service branch, age, gender, current fitness level, areas where you may be having trouble, etc?

Real short answer - practice the elements of the PFT. It's really that simple. Run. Alternate longer steady state run days with HIIT days. Do pushups and situps - I recommend reading up on the "Greasing the Groove" method for bodyweight work where you do multiple sub-maximal sets throughout the day, every day (e.g., 20 pushups every hour, 9-5). If you are overweight, start counting your calories and macros - everything is easier if you are lean and that will help if there is a waist measurement component for you. If you don't know how to eat right, start educating yourself as that will help with your recovery and prevent injuries. Make sure you are sleeping 6-8 hours a night and listen to your body if something hurts.

Outside of the USMC, the fitness assessments are nothing close to difficult*. It just takes some basic dedication and discipline. As I've noted in previous posts, you should be aiming to be in the Excellent category as a new officer.


*If you are Army, be aware the assessment may be changing: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... ness-test/

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:24 pm

Labrador911 wrote:Any suggestions to prep for the PFT if you have two months?


Run. Push ups. Sit-ups. Repeat for 2 months.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:28 pm

If anyone who has familiarity with the AF JAG could help me answer these questions I would be super grateful. So, as circumstances would have it my GF (a law school grad), got hired on as an associate w/ a firm. So I am kinda stuck in the area I am now. Because of that Air Force has become the most attractive branch to me because from what I have read you can find out your base assignment before making a decision. First of all is this true? My thinking is that because the area I am in I don't believe that many people will necessarily preference being stationed at the base closest to me. My second question is, how likely is it to even get your preference, especially if its not up there as one of the more popular places to get stationed at. My final question is how far can you live off base, and are there restrictions to it? My GF works about an hour from the base in a mid-sized metro area, would it be possible to commute 50 minutes or so working as a JAG?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If anyone who has familiarity with the AF JAG could help me answer these questions I would be super grateful. So, as circumstances would have it my GF (a law school grad), got hired on as an associate w/ a firm. So I am kinda stuck in the area I am now. Because of that Air Force has become the most attractive branch to me because from what I have read you can find out your base assignment before making a decision. First of all is this true? My thinking is that because the area I am in I don't believe that many people will necessarily preference being stationed at the base closest to me. My second question is, how likely is it to even get your preference, especially if its not up there as one of the more popular places to get stationed at. My final question is how far can you live off base, and are there restrictions to it? My GF works about an hour from the base in a mid-sized metro area, would it be possible to commute 50 minutes or so working as a JAG?


It is correct that you will learn your assignment prior to you officially committing.

There is no real way to handicap the odds of you getting the base you want - you are just one variable in the multi-variable calculus that is assignments. That base will need to be losing a first or second assignment to create a vacancy. And then JAX will have to forecast the backfill to be a brand new accession - that could be more or less likely depending on a whole host of factors (for example - are there already a bunch of first assignments there? Do they need to move a second assignment into the open slot because they need to now fill the Chief of Military Justice spot with someone more experienced? If so, they may not want a newbie). And then, if all those stars align, JAX will have to want you specifically at that base. That is a lot of unknowns all having to go your way.

First assignments end up in awesome locations and in miserable locations just the same. The assignment preference sheet only goes so far - there is not necessarily any rhyme or reason to assignments for brand new O-2s.

There is not any policy level restriction I am aware of in terms of how far you can live from base but there is the expectation you will be able to get to base in a reasonable amount of time in the event of a recall or other event. I think a ~2 hour daily commute is going to get real old when you factor in early mornings doing PT and late evenings prepping for courts or participating in base exercises. It's likely possible, but not anything I would recommend.

A couple additional thoughts: a lot of SJAs will ask about your willingness to move in the interview. They are trying to figure out if you are a homesteader or someone that will fit in with the AF assignment process of moving every 2-3 years. If I was interviewing you and you told me the truth, I would have serious reservations about even recommending you for selection and I have heard of that being a common deal breaker (e.g., someone telling the SJA they are happy serving as long as it in California). Assuming your resume shows significant ties to the area near the base, it is very likely you will get the question about your willingness to be moved somewhere else in the country/world.

And let's say you get the base you want for #1, what happens when you have to PCS after two years or when get deployed for 6-12 months? And what happens after the second assignment?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:53 pm

I am applying for AF JAG in the March 2018 board with a pretty strong military background. I have an interview for a federal district court clerkship (2019 term) coming up. It's a long-shot for me to get this clerkship position, but just in case, what is the JAG view on taking a federal clerkship? Would I be able to be accepted into JAG then hold off on entering, or take a one-year break for the clerkship (highly doubt this, but just checking).

Trying to get some better information so I am prepared in case I need to make the decision.

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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:49 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:There is not any policy level restriction I am aware of in terms of how far you can live from base but there is the expectation you will be able to get to base in a reasonable amount of time in the event of a recall or other event. I think a ~2 hour daily commute is going to get real old when you factor in early mornings doing PT and late evenings prepping for courts or participating in base exercises. It's likely possible, but not anything I would recommend.

Yes, this sounds awful for a first assignment. I currently have a commute of about an hour, but I'm in a job where I can control my schedule and the workload isn't anything crazy.

I would not have survived my first assignment with a long commute. My first assignment was certainly an outlier, but we often worked past 10:00 PM, and we worked every weekend day we could emotionally force ourselves to. All you need is one bad boss to make the entire thing miserable.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am applying for AF JAG in the March 2018 board with a pretty strong military background. I have an interview for a federal district court clerkship (2019 term) coming up. It's a long-shot for me to get this clerkship position, but just in case, what is the JAG view on taking a federal clerkship? Would I be able to be accepted into JAG then hold off on entering, or take a one-year break for the clerkship (highly doubt this, but just checking).

Trying to get some better information so I am prepared in case I need to make the decision.


Give JAX a call. I believe they can grant a deferment for a clerkship on a case-by-case basis.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Houzy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:42 pm

If years past is any indication, I have a hunch GLP/OYCP calls will start going out Friday.

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Re: Military Law

Postby JayEhs » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:55 pm

AD Army Select here, has anyone had any trouble securing the additional medical tests we need to get done outside of DODMERB? I have been able to complete the drug, protein and glucose, and the alcohol tests; however, I have not found an urgent care or clinic that will take me without a prescription for a HIV test.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:33 pm

Houzy wrote:If years past is any indication, I have a hunch GLP/OYCP calls will start going out Friday.


Calls going out now. Got picked up for OYCP.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Houzy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Houzy wrote:If years past is any indication, I have a hunch GLP/OYCP calls will start going out Friday.


Calls going out now. Got picked up for OYCP.

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Also just got the call. Picked up for GLP! Really excited!

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Re: Military Law

Postby Dawg57 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:18 pm

Congrats future airmen

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Re: Military Law

Postby aka123 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:04 pm

JayEhs wrote:AD Army Select here, has anyone had any trouble securing the additional medical tests we need to get done outside of DODMERB? I have been able to complete the drug, protein and glucose, and the alcohol tests; however, I have not found an urgent care or clinic that will take me without a prescription for a HIV test.

I was able to get all the tests through my PCP. All covered through Medicaid - yay low student income. All Planned Parenthood offices offer free HIV testing. Many student health centers will too.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:42 am

For those getting picked up for the GLP try to go to field training this summer if your Det will let you. That little choice will change your whole experience during the school year: you’ll be considered an “experienced cadet” instead of some noob who is in earnest need of training by everybody and their dog. If you don’t, and depending on your Det, you’ll also be spending your 2L year having to do tons of additional things in preparation for field training that are a complete waste of your time and take away from law school. Be prepared to get a ton of crap from undergrads way less mature than you who think they are gods, and for a very inefficient onboarding process because no ROTC personnel folks will seem to know or care about your paperwork. Good luck! It’s all worth it in the end.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:44 am

For AF JAG, when you're six months in and you become an O-3 are you an O-3 with 3 years of service for pay purposes or an O-3 with 1/2 year of service?

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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:For AF JAG, when you're six months in and you become an O-3 are you an O-3 with 3 years of service for pay purposes or an O-3 with 1/2 year of service?

For those coming in through DAP, the answer is "essentially, 1/2 year of service." Your date of service for determining how much you are paid is calculated from the date you actually take your oath, which should be before you go to COT. I swore in in early December, but I didn't go on active duty until early January. So I was at ~7 months when I hit O-3.

GLP & OYCP swear in a lot earlier, I think, so they would like have more time.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:For those getting picked up for the GLP try to go to field training this summer if your Det will let you. That little choice will change your whole experience during the school year: you’ll be considered an “experienced cadet” instead of some noob who is in earnest need of training by everybody and their dog. If you don’t, and depending on your Det, you’ll also be spending your 2L year having to do tons of additional things in preparation for field training that are a complete waste of your time and take away from law school. Be prepared to get a ton of crap from undergrads way less mature than you who think they are gods, and for a very inefficient onboarding process because no ROTC personnel folks will seem to know or care about your paperwork. Good luck! It’s all worth it in the end.


A lot has been said on the thread about the pros/cons of the early-entry AF programs. Those admitted would be wise to review those posts. Personally I would steer clear.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:04 pm

After getting the call yesterday I went back through this thread looking for a little more information about OYCP. I know that this summer I will be going to field training, but I have a few questions. If anyone could fill me in, it would be great:

1) I know that I will need to take the AFOQT, but when will I need to do this? Prior to attending field training this summer, or prior to commissioning? If I have to do it prior to field training, how soon will I need to do it?

2) At some point, I assume, I will need to go to MEPS. Do I need to go to MEPS prior to field training? If I have something that needs a waiver, will I need to get the waiver prior to field training? If I am in fact required to go to MEPS, how soon will this be?

3) There seems to be mixed opinions in this thread, is field training paid? Also, will I have to go through the one week crash course prior to field training?

Anyone who can provide any information with regards to this question will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:After getting the call yesterday I went back through this thread looking for a little more information about OYCP. I know that this summer I will be going to field training, but I have a few questions. If anyone could fill me in, it would be great:

1) I know that I will need to take the AFOQT, but when will I need to do this? Prior to attending field training this summer, or prior to commissioning? If I have to do it prior to field training, how soon will I need to do it?

2) At some point, I assume, I will need to go to MEPS. Do I need to go to MEPS prior to field training? If I have something that needs a waiver, will I need to get the waiver prior to field training? If I am in fact required to go to MEPS, how soon will this be?

3) There seems to be mixed opinions in this thread, is field training paid? Also, will I have to go through the one week crash course prior to field training?

Anyone who can provide any information with regards to this question will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


1) talk to the NCOs at your Detachment, they will schedule a time for you to take it. Not something to lost sleep over. Just has to be done before you can contract.

2) talk to the NCOs at the Detachment. They’ll walk you through all the medical paperwork you need and get you into the system to upload your medical history etc.

3) you’re not getting paid for field training it’s only 13 days. The recruiting docs that say you will are false advertising.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:12 am

What do the long-term career options look like post-JAG? I mean truly long-term. I'm going into the Navy JAG. I previously interned and then was picked up. I'm looking to stay in for 20 yrs and collect my 40% pension + 401k contributions/match. I've seen some discussions of what they look like 4, 6, 8, and 10 years into service, but I'm curious what options I'd have at 45 with 20 years of JAG experience beneath me.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:What do the long-term career options look like post-JAG? I mean truly long-term. I'm going into the Navy JAG. I previously interned and then was picked up. I'm looking to stay in for 20 yrs and collect my 40% pension + 401k contributions/match. I've seen some discussions of what they look like 4, 6, 8, and 10 years into service, but I'm curious what options I'd have at 45 with 20 years of JAG experience beneath me.


It really depends what your goals are. There are a lot of Former and retired JAGs filling general counsel roles for various government agencies (e.g. DOD OGC is probably 75% former or retired JAGs). If you were on a criminal law track many retired JAGs get jobs as AUSA’s or state leve prosecutors. I know that there is a retired Marine Corps JA that’s the federal public defender for a district. Also, there are some former JAGs working on the Hill. Many states also have veterans service organizations that hire retired JAGs to help vets with disability claim appeals.

Outside of government work a lot of it depends on connections that you’ve made. I think it’s very rare for a retired JAG to move on and get a biglaw firm job (partner or even below). But it’s not as hard to go to a medium or small firm. There are a lot of retired JAGs that work as criminal defense attorneys for servicemembers that want to hire counsel. There are firms that hire retired JAGs to handle security clearance related legal issues.

Finally some don’t practice at all...they collect their pension and do something completely unrelated...like teach high school.

Short answer: it really depends. It’s definitely much easier to do government work, but that doesn’t mean private sector jobs are unattainable.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:What do the long-term career options look like post-JAG? I mean truly long-term. I'm going into the Navy JAG. I previously interned and then was picked up. I'm looking to stay in for 20 yrs and collect my 40% pension + 401k contributions/match. I've seen some discussions of what they look like 4, 6, 8, and 10 years into service, but I'm curious what options I'd have at 45 with 20 years of JAG experience beneath me.


Good question.

The ultimate answer is a "it depends" on the particular officer's career, connections, and specializations (and also, what they actually want to do as a civilian).

In my experience, not all retired JAGs are going to be created equal. The high speed O-6 that is retiring from a prominent position that has juice with the senior leadership is going to have a very different experience than the shitbag JAG who no one could believe made O-5. Reputation is going to go a long way as well - by the time you retire, you are going to be a very well known quantity. Being liked and well regarded professionally will open up civilian opportunities far more than the person who everyone hated working for/with and whose retirement notice lead to outbreaks of celebration.

I've been in the DC area for some time now and I've seen a lot stay within the Federal government. Those who know the right people can roll right into GS-15 and SES positions without a whole lot of effort. I've seen it a number of times where the person has basically kept their active duty job after the office was able to create a civilian equivalent. You retire Friday as Colonel/Captain Smith and then pick up in the exact same office as Mr. Smith, GS-15, that Monday.

I know a number now that are federal Administrative Law Judges (ALJ) and a few that went on to be appointed as federal Magistrates. Others have hung out their own shingles - I can think of one or two former military judges that are now doing UCMJ criminal defense work. Those that take the time to write and publish extensively may be able to move into academia.

Much like my post a while back on getting out at the mid-career mark, your subject matter expertise is going to drive a lot of this too. For someone with a deep background in procurement that is retiring from AF Material Command, things will go pretty smoothly. From day 1 as an O-2, I would be always looking for a subject matter niche to master that would aid in a civilian career - that benefits you if you punch out at year 6 or 26.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Houzy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:37 pm

Any idea when official emails will come in from JAX if selected for GLP/OYCP?

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Re: Military Law

Postby JackofLaw » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:03 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What do the long-term career options look like post-JAG? I mean truly long-term. I'm going into the Navy JAG. I previously interned and then was picked up. I'm looking to stay in for 20 yrs and collect my 40% pension + 401k contributions/match. I've seen some discussions of what they look like 4, 6, 8, and 10 years into service, but I'm curious what options I'd have at 45 with 20 years of JAG experience beneath me.


Good question.

The ultimate answer is a "it depends" on the particular officer's career, connections, and specializations (and also, what they actually want to do as a civilian).

In my experience, not all retired JAGs are going to be created equal. The high speed O-6 that is retiring from a prominent position that has juice with the senior leadership is going to have a very different experience than the shitbag JAG who no one could believe made O-5. Reputation is going to go a long way as well - by the time you retire, you are going to be a very well known quantity. Being liked and well regarded professionally will open up civilian opportunities far more than the person who everyone hated working for/with and whose retirement notice lead to outbreaks of celebration.

I've been in the DC area for some time now and I've seen a lot stay within the Federal government. Those who know the right people can roll right into GS-15 and SES positions without a whole lot of effort. I've seen it a number of times where the person has basically kept their active duty job after the office was able to create a civilian equivalent. You retire Friday as Colonel/Captain Smith and then pick up in the exact same office as Mr. Smith, GS-15, that Monday.

I know a number now that are federal Administrative Law Judges (ALJ) and a few that went on to be appointed as federal Magistrates. Others have hung out their own shingles - I can think of one or two former military judges that are now doing UCMJ criminal defense work. Those that take the time to write and publish extensively may be able to move into academia.

Much like my post a while back on getting out at the mid-career mark, your subject matter expertise is going to drive a lot of this too. For someone with a deep background in procurement that is retiring from AF Material Command, things will go pretty smoothly. From day 1 as an O-2, I would be always looking for a subject matter niche to master that would aid in a civilian career - that benefits you if you punch out at year 6 or 26.


I was a Navy JAG for five years ('04-'09), then an AUSA, then at AMLAW 25 firm in secondary market. I was at a T-14 before that, which helped. There are not easy answers to this question - a lot depends on your career path. You have to think independently through your career about what you'll bring to the table when you leave. I know senior military judges (0-6) who literally had no idea what to do when they left.

In general, the sweet spots to leave are (a) around 4-6 years; and (b) after you make 0-6 and are a serious subject matter expert. If you try to leave in the middle, you're a mid-ranker who is expert at nothing compared to your non-military peers.

Common paths out to great careers for the 4-6 year folks:

1. AUSA/Main Justice. Several of my colleagues took the same path out at about the same career stage. If you're trying this, make sure you get two full trial/litigation tours before leaving (or appellate before NMCCA). You can usually get your detailer to make this happen for you. This is a great route, having done it myself. But unless you're a prior academic superstar, you'll probably need to be geographically flexible to get hired direct from JAG. I was 29 and took the first offer from a USAO that I received.
2. Other federal government. I know one guy who is now a civilian attorney at DOD.
3. Middle level associate at litigation firms. Usually midlaw or small law without the intermediary DOJ step though, unless you have a stellar academic resume.
4. FBI Agent. I know a few who did this.
5. State government. I know one guy who is with the California AG now, another with Virginia AG.

For the senior Officers:

1. Again, AUSA. One of the best AUSAs at my USAO was a former 0-6 JAG. This is for folks with lots of military litigation experience.
2. Lower judiciary. Magistrate judges, administrative law judges.
3. Other federal government, esp. DOD/IC/Congress/etc. For this, you usually need some real subject matter expertise and connections. So you'll want to have spent significant time (within Navy JAG) at one of the "Codes" in DC and/or as 0-6 SJA at major commands.
4. In-house at military-related businesses. I know a few at USAA, Navy Federal, Lockheed, etc.
5. Professors. Same requirements as #3 - you need a unique expertise.
6. Partner at small/regional firms (litigators). I know one guy who is a partner at a firm with three offices in Virginia. He was a senior trial counsel and military judge.

You need to decide early what your career is about and direct MOST of your billets that way, so that you can tell a coherent story.



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