Military Law

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BHL
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Re: Military Law

Postby BHL » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:10 am

EastCoaster wrote:Hey all, quick question that I hope someone here can help me with: If I went to Marine OCS - PLC Juniors (the first half) during undergrad, but did not commission, then is it true that I should answer "no" when asked if I have ever served in the armed forces?

I realize that the contract simply called for a commitment only during the Summer training, but I am curious to clear this up and make sure that I am correct - as I am in the process of filling out the 'dreaded' bar exam application and I don't want to contradict myself by stating "no, I have never served" and then listing it as summer employment within the last five years in another section!

Thank you for your assistance and best of luck.

For everything like that on my bar application, I answered as thoroughly as possible. While the military may not consider that as military service, I wouldn't want to leave it to the bar examiners to conclude that my work didn't technically equate to service in the armed forces. Thus, I would check yes/no depending on whatever official answer you received on that matter (if possible) and would write an explanation about my response to ensure (or at least try to ensure) that the bar examiners won't get the wrong idea. Some bar examiners are pickier about these things than others, but I would try to eliminate any prodding from their end and give them too much information rather than not enough. Additionally, giving explanation now rather than later helps with the appearance you're presenting since unprompted explanations don't look as defensive as explanations to requests for further information.

Tuyarp
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Re: Military Law

Postby Tuyarp » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:10 pm

I don't know if this has been answered, but what do JAGs do when they get out of the military? Thanks!

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Undead_Ed
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Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:57 am

The Army Active Duty Accessions are out. I got shut down on this one. They are saying this was the most competitive board they have had lately.

CyLaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby CyLaw » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:00 am

Tuyarp wrote:I don't know if this has been answered, but what do JAGs do when they get out of the military? Thanks!


I imagine most continue being lawyers.

It depends on the person, and like most ex-officers, I imagine most go into the private sector while some still work for the government, either federal, state, or local.

Tuyarp
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Re: Military Law

Postby Tuyarp » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:05 am

CyLaw wrote:
Tuyarp wrote:I don't know if this has been answered, but what do JAGs do when they get out of the military? Thanks!


I imagine most continue being lawyers.

It depends on the person, and like most ex-officers, I imagine most go into the private sector while some still work for the government, either federal, state, or local.


Right. I'm just wondering if it would be difficult to make the transition from JAG to the private sector, especially the more selective firms.

CyLaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby CyLaw » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:09 am

Tuyarp wrote:
CyLaw wrote:
Tuyarp wrote:I don't know if this has been answered, but what do JAGs do when they get out of the military? Thanks!


I imagine most continue being lawyers.

It depends on the person, and like most ex-officers, I imagine most go into the private sector while some still work for the government, either federal, state, or local.


Right. I'm just wondering if it would be difficult to make the transition from JAG to the private sector, especially the more selective firms.


+1 to this question. I do wonder how previous JAG's fare as Experienced Hires in BigLaw

lsatbdog
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Re: Military Law

Postby lsatbdog » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:23 am

Tuyarp wrote:
CyLaw wrote:
Tuyarp wrote:I don't know if this has been answered, but what do JAGs do when they get out of the military? Thanks!


I imagine most continue being lawyers.

It depends on the person, and like most ex-officers, I imagine most go into the private sector while some still work for the government, either federal, state, or local.


Right. I'm just wondering if it would be difficult to make the transition from JAG to the private sector, especially the more selective firms.


It really depends.

First you have to note the differences between the branches. In terms of exit options, I feel like the USMC is probably the lowest. You are going to be more of a generalist there in many ways, including taking on non-legal billets, including combat assignments. People on this board don't always seem to believe this for some reason, but I've talked to plenty of ex Marine SJAs (I will admit most were from the Vietnam era) who did lengthy deployments and saw combat regularly. Remember that every Marine is a rifleman first, and the needs of the Corps come first over your specific assignment. Although I have not served in the USMC, I have many relatives who have, and can say with certainty that this isn't a joke or some hollow saying. That said, I'm sure you'd see plenty of legal cases.
In the Air Force you may gain a greater degree of specialization, especially the longer you stay in. Many JAGs who come out may work with companies such as Boeing and other military suppliers on the terms of future contracts with the DOD, or work with many of the other private military contractors (who knows what the future holds for such companies). I can't speak as much to the Army or Navy since I haven't done the research on them, but I'd imagine Navy is similiar to Air Force. In any branch, you will probably provide legal counsel to service members, such as writing wills, etc. If you stay in long enough, you could also take advantage of the GI bill, go get a PhD in a field that interests you, and have some great qualities for academia.
Keep in mind much of the law you practice in the military may have little application to the civilian world, as much of military law is under its own specific set of rules. I really have no idea what biglaw prospects would look like, but I can say most former JAGs I have spoken with seem to think that the exit options are pretty decent. I would note that you will be getting close to 30 by the time you get out though, so if biglaw only wants young law grads, this may not be the best option. My guess would be is that if you really want to work for a biglaw firm, JAG may not be the best route, but it probably won't preclude it. This is all just my O-0/0L knowledge though, so take it for what it is work.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:50 am

Lot of action on this board yesterday for a Friday night. As a whole, we may need to get out more.

The Army select list dropped: --LinkRemoved--

bahama
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Re: Military Law

Postby bahama » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:42 pm

CyLaw wrote:
Tuyarp wrote:
CyLaw wrote:
Tuyarp wrote:I don't know if this has been answered, but what do JAGs do when they get out of the military? Thanks!


I imagine most continue being lawyers.

It depends on the person, and like most ex-officers, I imagine most go into the private sector while some still work for the government, either federal, state, or local.


Right. I'm just wondering if it would be difficult to make the transition from JAG to the private sector, especially the more selective firms.


+1 to this question. I do wonder how previous JAG's fare as Experienced Hires in BigLaw


One thing to keep in mind is much of big law is focused on business transactional type work or corporation vs corporation litigation. JAG is not going to give you a lot of experience in these things. A lot of what you will do as a jr JAG officer is smaller scale litigation and military specific stuff (like advising commanders on LOAC).

JAG has a lot of great things about it and good exit options but it would be foolish to expect to go to BigLaw afterwards. Of course there are people who make this jump but it is probably a lot easier coming out of a Govt agency that does a lot of work that has more in common than what JAGs do.

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Nightrunner
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Re: Military Law

Postby Nightrunner » Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:11 pm

[SPAM]

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:18 pm

Bahama has the credited response.

Can a former Judge Advocate go BigLaw? Sure. Does it happen often? Not from my experience. As Bahama noted, some of the reasons for this are practical, i.e., the primary work JAGs do is not analogous to what a BigLaw shop does. The basic skills for litigation are there: research, writing, and trial practice, but it is often apples and oranges. The biggest exceptions I can come up in regard to the Air Force are the JAGs assigned to Field Support Centers. The FSCs are speciality shops that focus on a single civil law practice area: Enviromental, Labor, high level civil litigation, etc. If one were selected for the LLM program in a specific area and then ran a section/division at the related FSC, there would be enough subject matter expertise to lateral into a firm that has that practice area.

In the year I have been at my current office, I've known five JAGs that have seperated into the Reserves. All of them stayed Federal, 4 went to litigation based positions at Homeland Security, the other went to State.

Keep in mind that most JAGs (most = the JAGs I am friends with/associate with) do not want to be in BigLaw to begin with. Receiving a commission is no small accomplishment and all of us sought military service for a reason. From my personal standpoint, I believe strongly in what I am doing. I do not view my job as a possible springboard into a whiteshoe law firm but as providing a necessary service to my nation while we are at war. While some Federal positions like clerkships and DoJ have a revolving door between BigLaw firms, you really do not see that with the JAG Corps.

CyLaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby CyLaw » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:56 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:Keep in mind that most JAGs (most = the JAGs I am friends with/associate with) do not want to be in BigLaw to begin with.


I believe this plays a very large role. I will likely be in public service my whole life, and I know most of my fellow veterans I served with are similar.

I was mostly seconding the question just to get feedback on it from people in the JAG community partly out of curiosity and also to have on hand in case I am ever asked by others. Thank you very much.

amped
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Re: Military Law

Postby amped » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:34 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:Lot of action on this board yesterday for a Friday night. As a whole, we may need to get out more.

The Army select list dropped: --LinkRemoved--


Now if they would just get a move on with the summer internship decisions!!

BrutusBuckeye
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Re: Military Law

Postby BrutusBuckeye » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:39 pm

OYCP interview tomorrow at Wright-Patterson. Wish me luck!

nomargfan5
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Re: Military Law

Postby nomargfan5 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:23 pm

can anyone comment on their experience as an air force summer intern?

How early can I apply as a 3L for direct appointment and how soon would I hear of the board's decision?

I know it helps, but how probable is direct appointment for someone who has done a summer internship?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:50 pm

BrutusBuckeye wrote:OYCP interview tomorrow at Wright-Patterson. Wish me luck!


My old stomping grounds...

Best of luck.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:11 am

nomargfan5 wrote:can anyone comment on their experience as an air force summer intern?

How early can I apply as a 3L for direct appointment and how soon would I hear of the board's decision?

I know it helps, but how probable is direct appointment for someone who has done a summer internship?


1. Yes. You are going to have ask some specific questions though.

2. You can apply as early as you want. I went before the August board in my 3L, so technically before the academic semester started. The board meets the 1st of every other month. Generally, you will hear by the 15th of that month. For example, the next board is this February. The board meets on 1 Feb, results around 15 Feb.

3. There is no real way to quantify this. There are no published numbers to crunch or compare. You have a distinct advantage but it is subject to who knows how many different variables. Regardless, it is still highly competitive. 20-30 people are selected for each board out of a 350+ pool.

jst
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Re: Military Law

Postby jst » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:14 am

Hey guys, this chain has been incredibly helpful as I make my decision whether or not to pursue jag after law school.

I'm wondering if anyone knows how easy it is to transition into a us attorney's office after 4 years of jag. This is really my goal, but I would love to serve my country early in my legal career, and gain criminal litigation experience.

Anyone have any idea?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:02 pm

jst wrote:Hey guys, this chain has been incredibly helpful as I make my decision whether or not to pursue jag after law school.

I'm wondering if anyone knows how easy it is to transition into a us attorney's office after 4 years of jag. This is really my goal, but I would love to serve my country early in my legal career, and gain criminal litigation experience.

Anyone have any idea?


If I seperate, USAO is my goal.

I don't think it is ever easy to land a position at USAO, even with amazing credentials. That said, a lot of AUSAs are former Judge Advocates. From my limited conversations with senior AUSAs, getting as much trial experience as possible is key. Getting courts in your first 4 years will vary significantly on where you are stationed and what you do at your base. For Air Force JAGs, those assigned to Air Combat Command and Air Mobility Command bases, generally speaking, tend to see more courts. I'm with ACC and have a very healthy case load. Conversey, I have friends from Space Command or Material Command bases that only saw 1-2 courts in their first 2 year tour.

The fastest way to acquire court experience in the first four years with USAF is to land the Area Defense Counsel position. It is a matter of skill, as they select the best trial counsels from for the slot, but also luck and timing, as the position has to be opening up at a time that lets you PCA.

For those staying on for 6 years, there are also the Senior Trial Counsel and Senior Defense Counsel positions, who are almost always former ADCs. They are essentially the designated hitters for criminal courts, flying around the country to litigate the most difficult cases. I imagine that one's resume following ADC and then STC/SDC would look great for USAO.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nomargfan5
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Re: Military Law

Postby nomargfan5 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:02 pm

Bateman,

So If I apply during the August board and don't get accepted, I can apply for the October board?

amped
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Re: Military Law

Postby amped » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:50 pm

Army 2L results are out. Interesting that not one student from Vandy made the select or alternate list. Boo.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:52 pm

nomargfan5 wrote:Bateman,

So If I apply during the August board and don't get accepted, I can apply for the October board?


You can apply for as many boards as you wish. I know several current JAGs who did not get picked up until their third board.

crallen
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Re: Military Law

Postby crallen » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:33 pm

Hey guys, I am a little new around here, so forgive me if I ask something that has been asked in the 30 previous pages here... I started off in the Law School FAQ and was directed here, as I see there are quite a few military personnel...

A little backstory here on me: I am currently a junior at The Citadel, with a 3.25 cumulative, and I have to take the LSAT in June. Not to seem overconfident, but standardized testing got me scholarships for undergrad even with mediocre high school gpa. So with all this prep time until June, I am confident I will do well enough on the LSAT to get into a couple schools.

What I was wondering is if anyone here has gone the same path I have... I have an Army Scholarship and contract already and will be going to LDAC shortly after the LSAT. I will be commissioned as a 2LT when I graduate next May, but I am trying to get an educational delay to continue on to law school. Has anyone gone this route? How hard is it to get the delay? Is it ANY easier to get a JAG slot afterwards???

Some in the FAQ told me to ask my Army department, but the problem is they are mainly infantry guys who are here to make sure we pass LDAC, so none of them knew anything about the delay when I asked about it. If anyone knows anything about my path, or may have a fellow officer who knows, I would greatly appreciate any insight. Thanks.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:31 pm

crallen wrote:Hey guys, I am a little new around here, so forgive me if I ask something that has been asked in the 30 previous pages here... I started off in the Law School FAQ and was directed here, as I see there are quite a few military personnel...

A little backstory here on me: I am currently a junior at The Citadel, with a 3.25 cumulative, and I have to take the LSAT in June. Not to seem overconfident, but standardized testing got me scholarships for undergrad even with mediocre high school gpa. So with all this prep time until June, I am confident I will do well enough on the LSAT to get into a couple schools.

What I was wondering is if anyone here has gone the same path I have... I have an Army Scholarship and contract already and will be going to LDAC shortly after the LSAT. I will be commissioned as a 2LT when I graduate next May, but I am trying to get an educational delay to continue on to law school. Has anyone gone this route? How hard is it to get the delay? Is it ANY easier to get a JAG slot afterwards???

Some in the FAQ told me to ask my Army department, but the problem is they are mainly infantry guys who are here to make sure we pass LDAC, so none of them knew anything about the delay when I asked about it. If anyone knows anything about my path, or may have a fellow officer who knows, I would greatly appreciate any insight. Thanks.


You will probably need to contact JARO on this directly. I'm USAF so cannot speak to the particulars and I'm not sure if we have any Army JAGs lurking that would know this one. --LinkRemoved--

I know quite a few Air Force JAGs who were ROTC as undergraduates and used the educational delay program to knock out their JD.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

crallen
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Re: Military Law

Postby crallen » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:41 pm

The Air Force would have been a wise idea but it seems it is a little late for me to move over now. The Army department doesn't look so kindly on that :roll:

I have looked through the JARO site, but since everything was phone numbers and it was a federal holiday, I thought I would check here. Thanks for the input though!




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