Military Law

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
clwilson6
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:31 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby clwilson6 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:38 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Wellsfargowagon wrote:I recall that one of the branches (Marines, perhaps?) credits your three years of law school as "years of service" such that, assuming no prior military background, you start as an O-2 with 3 years instead of 0 on the pay scale. Does that hold true for AF / Navy also?


AF does not count law school as years of service in terms of TIS for pay calculations for non-priors. For the active duty FELP/ELP students, the time counts however.


All military branches have what's called "constructive credit" in which time spent in law school can be applied towards time in service. Each branch applies it differently. I work in a Marine Corps Judge Advocate's Office and know that the Marine Corps applies it differently than every other service. In the Marine Corps, it's applied after a Marine Officer completes Officer Candidate School, The Basic School for Officers and Naval Justice School. Other services will apply the time after commissioning and bar passage. This is important due to promotion as promotion boards come during certain periods of the year.

bahama
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:23 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby bahama » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:40 am

BHL wrote:
pamo wrote:
BHL wrote:
motownsaint wrote:Do you folks know of many JAGs with spouses or long-term significant others?

I'm really enchanted with the idea of JAG right now (I go AD next month), and I certainly wouldn't mind moving every couple of years to a new place. But I don't want to reduce my SO's career options to house wife, either. What have you guys seen work/experienced?

I'm dealing with that reality now. The AF offered me a great overseas base, and I decided to take it. My then gf had to do a gut check to determine if the military life was something she wanted. Thankfully, she knew enough wives of officers to provide a picture for her. The short story of what they said is that being an officer's wife is what you make of it. If your SO doesn't want to be more than a housewife, then she won't try to be. BUT if she wants more, she can have it to an extent. The main caveat is that your SO (and future wife) will never get the opportunity to hold an upper level position unless it's on base. Few employers (and likely no employer) wants someone running their business who is going to leave in a few years. Some careers (artist, writer, nurse, etc.) are more mobile than others, so it somewhat depends on the situation. Regardless, you SO will need ot make sacrifices for it to work. Your main sacrifice will be down the road in determining whether you decide to stay beyond the initial commitment, but I don't think that's something you should predetermine from the start unless your SO has something waiting in the wings.

Furthermore, I think the housewife/baby-making-momma thing for military wives isn't as true when it comes to officers' wives than it does for enlistee wives. It happens, but I don't think to the same extent. I suspect education has a lot to do with the disparity: officers and their spouses tend to be more educated than enlistees and their wives. As such, the wives of officers want more than just being a mother because they feel like they went to college for a reason. This is at least the sentiment the few wives I know have, but that's fairly limited at this point.


BHL, thanks for the great answer. If you could, would you elaborate a bit on the part where you said "The main caveat is that your SO (and future wife) will never get the opportunity to hold an upper level position unless it's on base."

My SO has had a long held interest in service with the military, but is currently just prepping for next year's LSAT. If the AF/Navy makes efforts to keep spouses on the same bases, that would also definitely be something worth knowing.

More generally, are there career options on base that are there for military wives?

Any elaboration on this point takes my comment into a vague area. Of the wives I know, only one worked on base and that was as a nurse. She was in a different branch and didn't make a career out of it. She's now a successful artist.

I pressed a few people about the opportunities for wives and most said that on-base employment was probably their best bet. I think (don't take my word on it) wives get preferential treatment in the hiring at bases, so that should help them find higher level jobs there than off base. I suggest taking a look at the civilian jobs listed on USAJobs to give you an idea of what's out there. Eg, at the base to which I'm heading, the listed jobs are IT Specialist, various doctor positions, nurse, program coordinator and manager positions, historian, and secretary.

Again, I'm going out on a limb to some degree here since I'm trying to connect the dots on things other people told me rather than relaying the basic message.


I spent 10yrs as an officer in the Navy and my experience doesn’t match a lot of what was said above.

Very few of the officer’s wives I know (college educated, many with professional degrees) continued working full time after having kids. The biggest part of it is the difficulty of working while being a de facto single parent much of the time while the military spouse is deployed or gone for training. Combine this with the fact that they don’t need to work for economic reasons, and that it is harder to stay upwardly mobile in a career when you are moving every few years, sometime to less than desirable locations, and it is not really surprising that a lot of people make this choice. A lot of these people said they were going to keep working after having kids, but decided it wasn’t worth it once they had to live it for a while.

I don't know any officer's wives who worked on base or for the federal gov’t, unless they were also in the military. This may be different at some of the AF and Army bases in the middle of nowhere where there aren’t any professional jobs available outside the base.

If you are married to someone in the military, the policy is to try and keep you in the same area. This is a lot easier if you are both in the same service since you could be assigned to the same base. If you are in different services, they will still try but there is a lot more coordination involved and you are more likely to end up in a situation where you are say at different bases 100 miles apart and split the difference by living somewhere in the middle.

Having said all that, I also know officer’s wives who were doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, defense contractors/consultants, engineers, nurses, teachers, paralegals, or even had their own businesses. The thing to remember is the military spouse’s career path is going to be different because you have to move every three years or so and sometimes they end up living in places that may not have the best career opportunities for them. So it is much easier to do with a “portable” or high demand career.

Making career sacrifices for your significant other at some point is true in pretty much any field, not just the military.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:03 am

bahama wrote:I spent 10yrs as an officer in the Navy and my experience doesn’t match a lot of what was said above.

Very few of the officer’s wives I know (college educated, many with professional degrees) continued working full time after having kids. The biggest part of it is the difficulty of working while being a de facto single parent much of the time while the military spouse is deployed or gone for training. Combine this with the fact that they don’t need to work for economic reasons, and that it is harder to stay upwardly mobile in a career when you are moving every few years, sometime to less than desirable locations, and it is not really surprising that a lot of people make this choice. A lot of these people said they were going to keep working after having kids, but decided it wasn’t worth it once they had to live it for a while.

I don't know any officer's wives who worked on base or for the federal gov’t, unless they were also in the military. This may be different at some of the AF and Army bases in the middle of nowhere where there aren’t any professional jobs available outside the base.

If you are married to someone in the military, the policy is to try and keep you in the same area. This is a lot easier if you are both in the same service since you could be assigned to the same base. If you are in different services, they will still try but there is a lot more coordination involved and you are more likely to end up in a situation where you are say at different bases 100 miles apart and split the difference by living somewhere in the middle.

Having said all that, I also know officer’s wives who were doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, defense contractors/consultants, engineers, nurses, teachers, paralegals, or even had their own businesses. The thing to remember is the military spouse’s career path is going to be different because you have to move every three years or so and sometimes they end up living in places that may not have the best career opportunities for them. So it is much easier to do with a “portable” or high demand career.

Making career sacrifices for your significant other at some point is true in pretty much any field, not just the military.


Not to take away from the post in general (which seems to mirror just about every piece of advice I've been given by officers in several branches), I think the bolded might be the most credited, on-point advice on the topic yet.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:02 pm

Baylan wrote:I know this has been discussed ad nauseum, and over the past few months/weeks I've read through this entire thread, so for the sake of everyone (and myself), can I get a quick explanation of the DA, GLP, and the last (is there another?) way to secure an appointment to the JAG Corps? There are bits and pieces spread across the entire thread.

DA numbers, I know, are typically quite low (5-10% is the number often cited), and there are apparently no known GLP numbers, but is GLP appointment successful at a (significantly?) higher rate? I know this last bit of information will be purely anecdotal... but any information is better than nothing!

Thanks


All the Air Force JAG programs are here:

--LinkRemoved--

I'm not aware of any stats on GLP/OYCP beyond the general rule that it is indeed less cut throat than direct appointment. All I typically hear referenced is direct appointment numbers as that is how we staff the vast majority of JAGs.

Baylan
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:08 pm

Thank you very much for the links and information, guys.

s1lent
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby s1lent » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:58 am

Hey guys, I'm interested in the JAG program also and I wanted to inquire on if there are any promotions beyond O-3 in the AirForce; I understand that after 6 months you are promoted to O3, but just wondering if later on down the line there are additional promotions, if you plan on going career and whatnot. Thanks!

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:31 am

s1lent wrote:Hey guys, I'm interested in the JAG program also and I wanted to inquire on if there are any promotions beyond O-3 in the AirForce; I understand that after 6 months you are promoted to O3, but just wondering if later on down the line there are additional promotions, if you plan on going career and whatnot. Thanks!


Seriously?

s1lent
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:35 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby s1lent » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:59 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
s1lent wrote:Hey guys, I'm interested in the JAG program also and I wanted to inquire on if there are any promotions beyond O-3 in the AirForce; I understand that after 6 months you are promoted to O3, but just wondering if later on down the line there are additional promotions, if you plan on going career and whatnot. Thanks!


Seriously?


Yes, I am being serious; my apologies if the question seems inept, but I'm trying to get as much info as I can. I've been reading through the thread, and I'm just trying to get some questions answered that I didn't already see posted.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:20 am

s1lent wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
s1lent wrote:Hey guys, I'm interested in the JAG program also and I wanted to inquire on if there are any promotions beyond O-3 in the AirForce; I understand that after 6 months you are promoted to O3, but just wondering if later on down the line there are additional promotions, if you plan on going career and whatnot. Thanks!


Seriously?


Yes, I am being serious; my apologies if the question seems inept, but I'm trying to get as much info as I can. I've been reading through the thread, and I'm just trying to get some questions answered that I didn't already see posted.


Yes. We are line officers, so while we have separate JA boards, we promote just like everyone else. From First Lieutenant (0-2) to Lieutenant General (0-9).

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Military Law

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:24 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:Yes. We are line officers, so while we have separate JA boards, we promote just like everyone else. From First Lieutenant (0-2) to Lieutenant General (0-9).


AF JAG are line officers? Seriously?

brownshoe
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:46 am

Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:44 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:Yes. We are line officers, so while we have separate JA boards, we promote just like everyone else. From First Lieutenant (0-2) to Lieutenant General (0-9).


AF JAG are line officers? Seriously?


Not in the Navy. JAG officers are staff officers, but the point about promotions is the same.

wesleybs
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby wesleybs » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:00 pm

In terms of promotion, what is they typical schedule and what if you aren't promoted on that schedule? Is it an up and out policy? The USAF JAGC recruiting page says Major in 6-7 years and Lt. Colonel in 13, is that accurate for those you know in JAG?

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:00 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:Yes. We are line officers, so while we have separate JA boards, we promote just like everyone else. From First Lieutenant (0-2) to Lieutenant General (0-9).


AF JAG are line officers? Seriously?


Seriously.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Military Law

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:05 pm

brownshoe wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:AF JAG are line officers? Seriously?


Not in the Navy. JAG officers are staff officers, but the point about promotions is the same.


:shock:

Patrick Bateman wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:AF JAG are line officers? Seriously?


Seriously.


Good to know!

Kalas
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Kalas » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:33 pm

wesleybs wrote:In terms of promotion, what is they typical schedule and what if you aren't promoted on that schedule? Is it an up and out policy? The USAF JAGC recruiting page says Major in 6-7 years and Lt. Colonel in 13, is that accurate for those you know in JAG?


I think if you're an Officer and passed over for promotion twice, its goodbye. I'm not sure how accurate this is and/or whether it applies to JAG Officers.

wesleybs
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby wesleybs » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:01 pm

As a follow-up then, how often are officers who want to stay in overlooked?

MrTexas
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:27 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby MrTexas » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:33 pm

What level of security clearance is required to be a JAG? For top secret do u have to take a polygraph?

bahama
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:23 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby bahama » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:17 pm

wesleybs wrote:As a follow-up then, how often are officers who want to stay in overlooked?


It's a pyramid so promotions get harder the higher you go. It also varies year to year based on how many people are needed and those types of things. Some rough numbers below, keep in mind these % are of the people left, not the people who started:

O-3 close to 100% get promoted, basically anyone who didn't get in trouble.

O-4 80-95% get promoted, basically anyone who does their job with the expected level of competency and stays out of trouble.

O-5 70-90% get promoted, basically your average to above average performers. Most people who come in without prior service and stay 20yrs will retire at this level.

O-6 about 50% get promoted, basically your stars, people who have done well in a variety of challenging jobs. The promotion rate is deceivingly high because a lot of the O-5s who don't think they have a shot retire before they get looked at for this so this should be interpreted as 50% of the people who think they have a chance.

Whether people who have been passed over stay depends on how long they have been in. The closer they are to being able to collect retirement (20yrs svc) the more likely they will stay.

If you get passed over 2x for O-3 (Captain in Army/Marines/AF, Lieutenant in Navy) or O-4 (Lieutenant Commander in Navy, Major in others) then you are gone. Most people who get passed over for one of these have messed up in some way or another.

People who get passed over for O-5 (Navy Commander, other Lieutenant Colonel) are usually allowed to stay on until they are retirement eligible at 20 years, but occasionally may be forced out if the military is overmanned or if they have some sort of issue in their record (like say a DUI).

If you have more than a certain number of years and are forced out you get severance unless it is due to some sort of misconduct on your part and there has been a Courts Martial or other due process.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:29 pm

MrTexas wrote:What level of security clearance is required to be a JAG? For top secret do u have to take a polygraph?


We start out with Secret. Depending on the job, some pick up TS.

User avatar
Rotor
Posts: 917
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:42 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
MrTexas wrote:What level of security clearance is required to be a JAG? For top secret do u have to take a polygraph?


We start out with Secret. Depending on the job, some pick up TS.

The only people who have to take a poly for TS are those who ask, worriedly, if they have to take a poly for TS. :-)

J/k. Never had to take a poly as part of my TS investigations.

User avatar
Undead_Ed
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:45 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Undead_Ed » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:36 am

I thought that the army active duty JAG accessions board would be out by now. Anybody have an idea when they are coming out? Last year's are dated the 18th...

BrutusBuckeye
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby BrutusBuckeye » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:14 pm

Any advice about what kind of stuff to put in our Motivational Statement? I have a lot of ideas but its really hard to limit it to one page double spaced...

Also, is it expected we limit our resume to one page? Because I have a ton of relevant leadership experience from undergrad that I'd like to put on but I can't fit it on my existing one page resume.

And when I put the date on forms I sign, which format do I use.... YYYYMMDD (20091219) or 19 DEC 2009... or something else?

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:24 pm

BrutusBuckeye wrote:Also, is it expected we limit our resume to one page? Because I have a ton of relevant leadership experience from undergrad that I'd like to put on but I can't fit it on my existing one page resume.

And when I put the date on forms I sign, which format do I use.... YYYYMMDD (20091219) or 19 DEC 2009... or something else?


Follow the given instructions to the letter. If it says one page, you submit one page. This is the military after all, following orders precisely is critical.

If the forms do not state a specific format for the date, you can do whatever you want.

BrutusBuckeye
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby BrutusBuckeye » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:26 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
BrutusBuckeye wrote:Also, is it expected we limit our resume to one page? Because I have a ton of relevant leadership experience from undergrad that I'd like to put on but I can't fit it on my existing one page resume.

And when I put the date on forms I sign, which format do I use.... YYYYMMDD (20091219) or 19 DEC 2009... or something else?


Follow the given instructions to the letter. If it says one page, you submit one page. This is the military after all, following orders precisely is critical.

If the forms do not state a specific format for the date, you can do whatever you want.


Yeah it doesn't give any instructions on the length of the resume. I'll probably call JAX Monday just to make sure.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:33 pm

BrutusBuckeye wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
BrutusBuckeye wrote:Also, is it expected we limit our resume to one page? Because I have a ton of relevant leadership experience from undergrad that I'd like to put on but I can't fit it on my existing one page resume.

And when I put the date on forms I sign, which format do I use.... YYYYMMDD (20091219) or 19 DEC 2009... or something else?


Follow the given instructions to the letter. If it says one page, you submit one page. This is the military after all, following orders precisely is critical.

If the forms do not state a specific format for the date, you can do whatever you want.


Yeah it doesn't give any instructions on the length of the resume. I'll probably call JAX Monday just to make sure.


If memory serves, I submitted a 2 page resume.

I also have no ideas on the personal statement. With the volume of applicants, I seriously doubt they are reading these.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.