Military Law

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dodint
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Re: Military Law

Postby dodint » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:37 am

I've actually read this entire thread and continue to follow it, but I've got a question that's kind of too basic to even really search.

I'm starting a 4 year (part time) law program in two weeks, I'll graduate in May 2020.

When would I actually get in touch with JARO and begin the process? Seems premature at this point.

I'm only interested in Army and Coast Guard. Too old to go back into the Marines and I'm not particularly interested in the Navy/Air Force for mostly petty reasons. ;)

Thanks for any insight.

EasternAndSunset
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Re: Military Law

Postby EasternAndSunset » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:10 pm

dodint wrote:I've actually read this entire thread and continue to follow it, but I've got a question that's kind of too basic to even really search.

I'm starting a 4 year (part time) law program in two weeks, I'll graduate in May 2020.

When would I actually get in touch with JARO and begin the process? Seems premature at this point.

I'm only interested in Army and Coast Guard. Too old to go back into the Marines and I'm not particularly interested in the Navy/Air Force for mostly petty reasons. ;)

Thanks for any insight.

If you're going Army, you'll want to definitely try for the Army 2L Internship (assuming they'll still have it in the next few years). Even though you'll be part time, you'll technically be a 2L after this first year. So you can apply next year (2017). The application usually opens up around this time every year and you can schedule your FSO interview then. As far as applying for an actual commission post-grad, you can apply for that your last year of school, so 2019, if you're graduating 2020. Application for that also opens up around this time every year.

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:21 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is the Air Force application website down? I have been trying to log in for over an hour and nothing loads...


I was just able to click into the AF site I linked in my previous post. That said, the AFCCA site has been down all day - that has been a general sign that certain JAG servers at Maxwell AFB have gone down (again). If the site you are looking for happens to be hosted by those servers, that may be the issue. I recommend just calling JAX tomorrow if you are still having problems.


I still can't get it to load. I go to the direct appointment program, click on begin online application, and nothing loads. It says failure to reach this page. If it's not on my end, I was going to contact someone. I've tried it on 3 different computers.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:38 pm

...

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dodint
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Re: Military Law

Postby dodint » Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:39 pm

EasternAndSunset wrote:
dodint wrote:I've actually read this entire thread and continue to follow it, but I've got a question that's kind of too basic to even really search.

I'm starting a 4 year (part time) law program in two weeks, I'll graduate in May 2020.

When would I actually get in touch with JARO and begin the process? Seems premature at this point.

I'm only interested in Army and Coast Guard. Too old to go back into the Marines and I'm not particularly interested in the Navy/Air Force for mostly petty reasons. ;)

Thanks for any insight.

If you're going Army, you'll want to definitely try for the Army 2L Internship (assuming they'll still have it in the next few years). Even though you'll be part time, you'll technically be a 2L after this first year. So you can apply next year (2017). The application usually opens up around this time every year and you can schedule your FSO interview then. As far as applying for an actual commission post-grad, you can apply for that your last year of school, so 2019, if you're graduating 2020. Application for that also opens up around this time every year.


Thanks, awesome response. Appreciate it.

I work for the Army as a civilian. I doubt I'll do the formal Army internship because of the time commitment, I'm not giving up my career for an outside shot at increasing my JAG chances. I do plan to talk to my local legal office about doing a pair of externships outside of the formal program. Our Army post is very small so it should be able to be arranged fairly easily. I hope.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:10 am

Hey guys,

I was selected for the Air Force back in December. I had some troubles obtaining all my medical information for the MEPs paperwork, and the accessions officer told me to wait until after the bar for MEPs. I contacted him a few weeks ago after the bar, but have not heard anything back from him. I have not heard anything since early May. Is this normal or should I try to contact him again?
I know you always have to wait for the military, but I am trying to plan trips for the fall and work schedule, and do not know how flexible MEPs is, i.e., I get one day and can't change it.

Thanks

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hey guys,

I was selected for the Air Force back in December. I had some troubles obtaining all my medical information for the MEPs paperwork, and the accessions officer told me to wait until after the bar for MEPs. I contacted him a few weeks ago after the bar, but have not heard anything back from him. I have not heard anything since early May. Is this normal or should I try to contact him again?
I know you always have to wait for the military, but I am trying to plan trips for the fall and work schedule, and do not know how flexible MEPs is, i.e., I get one day and can't change it.

Thanks


I would stay actively engaged with your MEPs point of contact. You are likely one of many folders on that person's desk and it is very easy to get lost in the shuffle.

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:33 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey guys,

I was selected for the Air Force back in December. I had some troubles obtaining all my medical information for the MEPs paperwork, and the accessions officer told me to wait until after the bar for MEPs. I contacted him a few weeks ago after the bar, but have not heard anything back from him. I have not heard anything since early May. Is this normal or should I try to contact him again?
I know you always have to wait for the military, but I am trying to plan trips for the fall and work schedule, and do not know how flexible MEPs is, i.e., I get one day and can't change it.

Thanks


I would stay actively engaged with your MEPs point of contact. You are likely one of many folders on that person's desk and it is very easy to get lost in the shuffle.


Thank you for the advice, I will try to contact him again

phorkedprocess
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Re: Military Law

Postby phorkedprocess » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:46 am

.

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MGH1989
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Re: Military Law

Postby MGH1989 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:34 pm

For those of you who didn't summer with a JAG internship program. Does JAG (regardless of branch) look more favorably towards doing an internship that is public interest/ government related 2L year?

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:38 pm

I was selected for the 2016 board as a recent law school grad after being denied an internship as a 2L. In my opinion, public interest is definitely a plus, but along with a public interest internship try to get some JAG specific experience. Find a connection with a Judge Advocate in your area (maybe try career services) and reach out to see if they will let u sit in on separation boards or anything really that is relevant. This will give you something concrete for your personal statement.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:37 pm

I'll concur with the above response. I was also selected for Army FY 2016 Board, but did not get selected for the 2L Army Internship.

A handful of JAs have told me that any kind of JAG internship from any of the services would greatly help your application. I did multiple internships at the district attorney's office and my interviewer told me that DA internships and AG internships are the next best kind of internships to have for your application.

Along with the above suggestion, if you have a National Guard base/unit with a legal office nearby, just try to ask them if you can intern with them. That is what I did. They let me and I think that was one of the best parts of my application. They had a handful of AGR JAs, so the office operated like an AD office, and I interned with them full time for a summer. I was able to have an LOR from an SJA just like any other applicant, and that of course was a big help. Hopefully that gives you some ideas.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:40 am

Question for those completing their accession forms. For form 160-R, where we get to list top 3 choices for area assignment -- are we supposed to put geographic areas which include multiple base locations or specific bases we would like to be assigned to?

Thanks!

EasternAndSunset
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Re: Military Law

Postby EasternAndSunset » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:Question for those completing their accession forms. For form 160-R, where we get to list top 3 choices for area assignment -- are we supposed to put geographic areas which include multiple base locations or specific bases we would like to be assigned to?

Thanks!

The instructions say to leave that part blank.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:23 am

I suppose this is a matter of interpretation, but the instructions that I saw say "10. Duty assignment – leave blank" which I take to mean fill in the Area Assignment part.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:57 pm

More important than the quality of work, I think, is the adjustment to military life. It's kind of government-y in the sense that the computers are all slow, the brutalist architecture, and you can basically never be fired. Even coming from civilian government, it was definitely a culture shock to me - and there were definitely interns in my office that straight up decided this was not something they wanted to do for four years.

The military absolutely knows this, too, and that's why "experiencing the military" is a huge plus in your application. I think the DA selection rate for Army's 2Ls was close to 80%. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the other branches were similarly situated.

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dodint
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Re: Military Law

Postby dodint » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:00 pm

So from that perspective, my 6 years as a military vet w/tours in Iraq and Afghan would hold as much if not more weight than the full 2L internship program? I'm studying law part-time and probably won't be able to leave my career for two summers to do the full interships. I plan to do two separate 100hr 'individual' externships instead.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:32 pm

dodint wrote:So from that perspective, my 6 years as a military vet w/tours in Iraq and Afghan would hold as much if not more weight than the full 2L internship program? I'm studying law part-time and probably won't be able to leave my career for two summers to do the full interships. I plan to do two separate 100hr 'individual' externships instead.


There is some merit to the post above yours (Anonymous User » 28 Sep 2016, 08:57) in that the respective JAG Corps do not want dilettantes who will end up being shit bag, unhappy officers because they can't or won't confirm to military culture. Doing the JAG internship shows that you have done 10 weeks in a garrison military environment and apparently are good with it.

From my experience, the internship is valued on the hiring side because it is a 10 week audition in which the active duty folks can assess if you have the right wiring to wear the uniform. They are plenty of brilliant lawyers out there - most of them are not cut out for military life and an officer's commission. The job is not for everyone. I imagine that is the toughest question JAX/JARO/etc have to answer in selecting folks - the "what makes a good officer" question is not easy to answer and "does this applicant have those qualities" is even harder to answer when you have a pure civilian.

The recommendation letters I have been a part of writing for interns/externs applying for active duty will generally convey that "this person has what it takes and I would be happy to have them as a first assignment JAG in a legal office where I was the DSJA or SJA." That helps, to some extent, answer a lot of the questions about a particular applicant being the right fit.

For dodint: with your prior experience, you will already have a lot of those questions answered. You know what you are signing up for and know what it takes to wear the uniform. All other variables being equal, you are the safer bet and probably the better applicant. The interviewing SJA can look at your previous performance reports, medal citations, and other paperwork to get a much more developed review of you than the pure civilian in which it really comes down to just the one hour interview (for the Air Force process). Depending on your prior MOS/AFSC and if your time was junior enlisted, NCO, or as an officer, you may be in a slightly stronger or slightly weaker position. Even with all your experience, the externship process is really an audition; if your externships go well, you will be in very good shape as that can help answer the more specific "how would this person fit in as a first assignment JAG?"

There is no single path to serving as a JAG. My JASOC class had a mix of folks that interned, and didn't. Prior service and wet behind the ears brand new accessions. Some folks that got picked up by their first board, others than had to apply a few times. Don't sweat the stuff outside of your control.

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dodint
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Re: Military Law

Postby dodint » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:26 pm

It's still a ways away but it was nagging at me that my externships will be of such short duration. Thanks for the thorough feedback.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:16 pm

After reading this entire thread and following it for over a year, I am finally prepping to apply for the AF GLP this year. Currently my biggest issue is who I should get letters of rec from. There is a retired AF JAG Judge who was recently hired at my law school and he suggested I complete and submit my application as soon as I can after it opens because, when it comes down to making hair splitting decisions on applicants, sometimes when they submitted their applications comes into play. However, that means I will be submitting it in November, meaning I obviously will not have completed any of my classes. My legal writing professor is probably going to be the only law school professor who could write me a meaningful letter of recommendation because that is the only class I will have turned in work for. Would it make sense to get some of my undergrad professors to write some since they are more familiar with me and my work? I also worked at my cities bar association and ran the lawyer referral program so I was going to get the executive director to write one and then a basketball coach I played for and now coach under. So that would be two letters or rec from undergrad professors. Would that be reasonable?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:After reading this entire thread and following it for over a year, I am finally prepping to apply for the AF GLP this year. Currently my biggest issue is who I should get letters of rec from. There is a retired AF JAG Judge who was recently hired at my law school and he suggested I complete and submit my application as soon as I can after it opens because, when it comes down to making hair splitting decisions on applicants, sometimes when they submitted their applications comes into play. However, that means I will be submitting it in November, meaning I obviously will not have completed any of my classes. My legal writing professor is probably going to be the only law school professor who could write me a meaningful letter of recommendation because that is the only class I will have turned in work for. Would it make sense to get some of my undergrad professors to write some since they are more familiar with me and my work? I also worked at my cities bar association and ran the lawyer referral program so I was going to get the executive director to write one and then a basketball coach I played for and now coach under. So that would be two letters or rec from undergrad professors. Would that be reasonable?


I'll preface this with the fact that I am most familiar with DAP and not GLP, so take this with a grain of salt.

The information you are getting from the retired JAG at your law school does not sound right to me. The application window is the application window. With what I know of how JAX works, our TJAG is presented with their recommendations on who should be hired - from my experience, there is no way they are taking applications to TJAG piecemeal, on a rolling basis. All the applications would be racked and stacked and a clean recommendation would be given before TJAG made the final selections.

By analogy, with the hiring I have done in my civilian life with DOJ, I do not begin to look at applications until the end of the submission window. It would be a waste of time for me to start putting people into my "green/yellow/red" piles until I have the full group to compare. It is easily possible your point of contact is correct but I would be surprised if that is how it really works.

The letters are important. Getting all five and having them be solid is important. Do not stress out about the perceived importance of the author but rather how well they can speak to the qualities that are important for military service. Also, I would never recommend rushing to get what letters you can the soonest. Figure out the people that know you best that are willing to take the time to write you a good letter. Again, referencing my civilian life, but my management has never cared about my reports on reference calls in respect to the title/position of the reference, but rather the substance of the call. If you end up with a unicorn, where there is some famous name partner or former Assistant Attorney General that knows you personally and can really talk about you, awesome, but that is super rare. I'm usually calling line attorneys, associates, or junior partners. In my opinion, that is totally fine - I learn nothing from the head of the practice group that does not really know you from Adam but the fourth year associate that supervised you for a summer can be very helpful.

Just my two cents. Good luck.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:04 pm

The military absolutely knows this, too, and that's why "experiencing the military" is a huge plus in your application. I think the DA selection rate for Army's 2Ls was close to 80%. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the other branches were similarly situated.


Can you clarify what you mean? I'm not sure if you're saying that 80% of vets were selected for the internship, that 80% of interns were selected for active duty, that 80% of the slots went to interns/vets, or something else.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
The military absolutely knows this, too, and that's why "experiencing the military" is a huge plus in your application. I think the DA selection rate for Army's 2Ls was close to 80%. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the other branches were similarly situated.


Can you clarify what you mean? I'm not sure if you're saying that 80% of vets were selected for the internship, that 80% of interns were selected for active duty, that 80% of the slots went to interns/vets, or something else.


From the context and what I know about the hiring process - the applicants that had gone through the 2L Internship program enjoyed a ~80% selection rate for direct appointment.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:13 pm

Sorry for the stupid question, but does military law necessarily mean being *part of the military* in the sense that you have to go through the physical/tactical/weapons training, etc.? I haven't researched this career path at all, and it's not something I'm planning to pursue, but I'm just curious. Military law sounds like a fascinating field.

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dodint
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Re: Military Law

Postby dodint » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:51 pm

Most of the JAGs on my post are civilians. Whether they had prior service or not I have no idea, but at every base I've ever served on the legal office had civilians working alongside active duty JAGs. (USMC/Army)




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