Military Law

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Yojimbo
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Re: Military Law

Postby Yojimbo » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:10 pm

I think I just had an informal interview or something with Marine JAG who came to my campus. Might have a shot at OCS 1L summer even. It was pretty informative though so if anyone has some questions about Marine JAG I can try to answer with some recently acquired info.

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patrickd139
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Re: Military Law

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:45 pm

I'm going through the GLP program for the Air Force. Just had the meeting with the ROTC branch. Calling to set up the interview with the SJA tomorrow.

I'm not in the program yet, but happy to answer any questions about deadlines, requirements, procedure for the GLP program for anyone who is interested. I'm a 1L at a T2 plains-state school. No grades yet. T15 public university for UG. No prior military service, practically straight out of UG to law school.

articulably suspect
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Re: Military Law

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:02 pm

patrickd139 wrote:I'm going through the GLP program for the Air Force. Just had the meeting with the ROTC branch. Calling to set up the interview with the SJA tomorrow.

I'm not in the program yet, but happy to answer any questions about deadlines, requirements, procedure for the GLP program for anyone who is interested. I'm a 1L at a T2 plains-state school. No grades yet. T15 public university for UG. No prior military service, practically straight out of UG to law school.


any suggestions for those interested in glp, oycp, and da?

articulably suspect
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Re: Military Law

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:11 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:Update on the AF JAG loan repayment:

Good news. It appears everything has come together and the program, while not offically annoucned, will be a go for the last fiscal quarter of 2010. $65K, paid in three annual installments. The only less than ideal thing is that it will be considered W-2 income, so it will be taxed. It should amount to roughly $17,500 after taxes accounding to my source. JAG will work directly with the loan company for the payments; in other words, we never actually get a check or anything.

I'm extra excited as it looks like I will be deployed when the first payment goes out, so I may be able to land all of that tax free.


How does law school LRAP an IBR factor into all this? Is the JAG loan repayment just a little something extra?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:55 pm

ejjones wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:Update on the AF JAG loan repayment:

Good news. It appears everything has come together and the program, while not offically annoucned, will be a go for the last fiscal quarter of 2010. $65K, paid in three annual installments. The only less than ideal thing is that it will be considered W-2 income, so it will be taxed. It should amount to roughly $17,500 after taxes accounding to my source. JAG will work directly with the loan company for the payments; in other words, we never actually get a check or anything.

I'm extra excited as it looks like I will be deployed when the first payment goes out, so I may be able to land all of that tax free.


How does law school LRAP an IBR factor into all this? Is the JAG loan repayment just a little something extra?


It is an extra $22,000 a year of income so it very well may disqualify you from IBR/LRAP. You still qualify in terms of military service being a public service but your AGI may exceed the threshold. That said the money far exceeds what I got from my LRAP and what I'm saving from IBR.

articulably suspect
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Re: Military Law

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:02 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
ejjones wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:Update on the AF JAG loan repayment:

Good news. It appears everything has come together and the program, while not offically annoucned, will be a go for the last fiscal quarter of 2010. $65K, paid in three annual installments. The only less than ideal thing is that it will be considered W-2 income, so it will be taxed. It should amount to roughly $17,500 after taxes accounding to my source. JAG will work directly with the loan company for the payments; in other words, we never actually get a check or anything.

I'm extra excited as it looks like I will be deployed when the first payment goes out, so I may be able to land all of that tax free.


How does law school LRAP an IBR factor into all this? Is the JAG loan repayment just a little something extra?


It is an extra $22,000 a year of income so it very well may disqualify you from IBR/LRAP. You still qualify in terms of military service being a public service but your AGI may exceed the threshold. That said the money far exceeds what I got from my LRAP and what I'm saving from IBR.


I see and that 65K goes directly towards paying your loans off right? That's a pretty sweet deal. I thought the threshold for IBR is pretty high(100k), am I wrong? For the most part school LRAP's don't cover many govt jobs, due to their low salary thresholds.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:33 pm

ejjones wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
ejjones wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:Update on the AF JAG loan repayment:

Good news. It appears everything has come together and the program, while not offically annoucned, will be a go for the last fiscal quarter of 2010. $65K, paid in three annual installments. The only less than ideal thing is that it will be considered W-2 income, so it will be taxed. It should amount to roughly $17,500 after taxes accounding to my source. JAG will work directly with the loan company for the payments; in other words, we never actually get a check or anything.

I'm extra excited as it looks like I will be deployed when the first payment goes out, so I may be able to land all of that tax free.


How does law school LRAP an IBR factor into all this? Is the JAG loan repayment just a little something extra?


It is an extra $22,000 a year of income so it very well may disqualify you from IBR/LRAP. You still qualify in terms of military service being a public service but your AGI may exceed the threshold. That said the money far exceeds what I got from my LRAP and what I'm saving from IBR.


I see and that 65K goes directly towards paying your loans off right? That's a pretty sweet deal. I thought the threshold for IBR is pretty high(100k), am I wrong? For the most part school LRAP's don't cover many govt jobs, due to their low salary thresholds.


I have not looked that close at IBR, you are probably correct.

LRAP almost always covers military, as a solid portion of our pay comes in the form of allowances, which are not considered income. Roughly $1,600 of my monthly paycheck is totally tax free and is not W-2/AGI income.

ArkansasFan
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Re: Military Law

Postby ArkansasFan » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:35 pm

patrickd139 wrote:I'm going through the GLP program for the Air Force. Just had the meeting with the ROTC branch. Calling to set up the interview with the SJA tomorrow.

I'm not in the program yet, but happy to answer any questions about deadlines, requirements, procedure for the GLP program for anyone who is interested. I'm a 1L at a T2 plains-state school. No grades yet. T15 public university for UG. No prior military service, practically straight out of UG to law school.


I'd be interested to hear whatever you've got to say about it, your law school, any stats you care to share, the difficulty you might have had with applying to it, the competitiveness, requirements, and procedures. Thanks.

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patrickd139
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Re: Military Law

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:23 pm

ejjones wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:I'm going through the GLP program for the Air Force. Just had the meeting with the ROTC branch. Calling to set up the interview with the SJA tomorrow.

I'm not in the program yet, but happy to answer any questions about deadlines, requirements, procedure for the GLP program for anyone who is interested. I'm a 1L at a T2 plains-state school. No grades yet. T15 public university for UG. No prior military service, practically straight out of UG to law school.


any suggestions for those interested in glp, oycp, and da?


Yes. Tons of them. What specifically would you like to know about?

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patrickd139
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Re: Military Law

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:45 pm

ArkansasFan wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:I'm going through the GLP program for the Air Force. Just had the meeting with the ROTC branch. Calling to set up the interview with the SJA tomorrow.

I'm not in the program yet, but happy to answer any questions about deadlines, requirements, procedure for the GLP program for anyone who is interested. I'm a 1L at a T2 plains-state school. No grades yet. T15 public university for UG. No prior military service, practically straight out of UG to law school.


I'd be interested to hear whatever you've got to say about it, your law school, any stats you care to share, the difficulty you might have had with applying to it, the competitiveness, requirements, and procedures. Thanks.


My law school is just like most other law schools across the country (neither Harvard nor Cooley). Nothing special relating to my ability to get into the GLP other than the fact that it has an ROTC base on-campus, which is going to be convenient as far as PT if I get accepted.

As far as stats go, 161/3.75. Pretty much middle of the road as far as law students go, I'm sure.

The only difficulty I've had so far is getting the paperwork together, specifically the letter from the ROTC detachment saying they'll accept me as a member. I'm the first one at my law school that has applied to the GLP program, so it was a learning curve on their end as well as mine. My advice would be to apply right now if you're seriously interested. The application board only considers GLP candidates in February, that means your interview with the SJA must be scheduled no later than Jan 15.

To my knowledge, no statistics are kept or released as to the competitiveness of the GLP program. Anecdotal advice seems to be that it's much easier, but well this side of guaranteed. I'm still seeking out other internship opportunities for next summer in case the board doesn't pick me up.

The requirements are all listed in the application package (available for download here --LinkRemoved-- ). Pretty standard military application, best I can tell.

As for procedure that information can also be found on the recruiting website above, also reprinted below in outline form.

Download and complete application forms.
Meet with ROTC detachment and confirm they're willing to accept you as a member.
ROTC detachment will write a letter to include with above forms.
Schedule meeting with SJA at the nearest AF base.
SJA will consider you as a preliminary gatekeeper, collect your application forms/letters/etc. and (hopefully) write you a letter of recommendation to send with your file. He then sends your forms to Langley for background checks, etc.
In February, the selection board meets, considers your file and renders a decision.
Anecdotally, you hear back at the beginning of March, but that's obviously a discretionary deadline.

If you're accepted, you do contracting work (MEPS, AFQT, etc.) and enroll in ROTC courses for your second and third years. At that point you're committed to service time, though they're discouragingly ambiguous whether you are still committed if you fail the bar. During your 2L summer, you attend field training (6 weeks in Alabama) and then sit for the bar your 3L summer like everyone else. If you pass, you receive a commission and base assignment.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but feel free to ask more specific questions if they come up.

amped
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Re: Military Law

Postby amped » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:56 pm

So two questions -

(1) How much "operational law" do JAGs do? I would definitely not be opposed to doing other kinds of law, and would probably find them interesting, but the operational part of it really intrigues me. Is this something you'd get any exposure to your first few years? Can you get more and more as you go on up and basically become an expert with this? (this is basically a question for Bateman, or any other lurking JAGs)

(2) If you become a JAG, and decide it's not for you, can you go into another specialty (e.g., armor or infantry or intelligence or anything else) after you complete your first four-year obligation? How would this work?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:19 pm

amped wrote:So two questions -

(1) How much "operational law" do JAGs do? I would definitely not be opposed to doing other kinds of law, and would probably find them interesting, but the operational part of it really intrigues me. Is this something you'd get any exposure to your first few years? Can you get more and more as you go on up and basically become an expert with this? (this is basically a question for Bateman, or any other lurking JAGs)

(2) If you become a JAG, and decide it's not for you, can you go into another specialty (e.g., armor or infantry or intelligence or anything else) after you complete your first four-year obligation? How would this work?


1. Some bases (mine for example) have a specific Aviation/Operations Law section typically headed up by a second assignment JAG. Operations Law, aka International Law, can be a slippery thing to define. Depending on your deployment (lots of people from my JASOC class are deploying this summer) you might be able to get into the very thick of it.

International/Operations Law is something you can get an LLM in (if you are more law of war minded, usually at the Army JAG School on the UVA campus). The JAG School has a Operations Law slot for an instructor. Most of the billets I have seen in this area are generally held by Majors/Lt Cols. You will really spend your first four years being a generalist - jack of all trades but master of none. Exposure, yes, but you have to bide your time to truly specialize.

2. Technically speaking, I believe this is possible. I have never heard of it happening however. I also have absolutely idea how to go about this.

usnwfu
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Re: Military Law

Postby usnwfu » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:25 pm

See the problem I have with GLP, my grades won't come out till... first week jan? and they want the app sent in by the 15th? that's kinda pushing the deadline for teh SJA ain't it? how are you going about doing this?

articulably suspect
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Re: Military Law

Postby articulably suspect » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:11 am

patrickd139 wrote:
ejjones wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:I'm going through the GLP program for the Air Force. Just had the meeting with the ROTC branch. Calling to set up the interview with the SJA tomorrow.

I'm not in the program yet, but happy to answer any questions about deadlines, requirements, procedure for the GLP program for anyone who is interested. I'm a 1L at a T2 plains-state school. No grades yet. T15 public university for UG. No prior military service, practically straight out of UG to law school.


any suggestions for those interested in glp, oycp, and da?


Yes. Tons of them. What specifically would you like to know about?


What do you think they base glp on? Seeing as you had no real we, public service or ls grades, how do they decide? In general, I was just wondering if you had any pointers.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:18 am

amped wrote:So two questions -

(1) How much "operational law" do JAGs do? I would definitely not be opposed to doing other kinds of law, and would probably find them interesting, but the operational part of it really intrigues me. Is this something you'd get any exposure to your first few years? Can you get more and more as you go on up and basically become an expert with this? (this is basically a question for Bateman, or any other lurking JAGs)

(2) If you become a JAG, and decide it's not for you, can you go into another specialty (e.g., armor or infantry or intelligence or anything else) after you complete your first four-year obligation? How would this work?

(Edited to quote the Q, not PB's answer)
For Navy, my impression as a nonJAG was that you may study operational/law of war a bit in the early stages of your career, but wouldn't really get to practice much in it until you are an O-4.

For changing job specialties, there is a "Transfer & Redesignation Board" that meets 1-2 times per year to consider such requests. To be eligible though, you have to get your "losing community's" permission (in this case JAGC). If they are hurting for folks, that will be a difficult hurdle to cross. If they've paid any of your bills through SLRP or other scholarship programs and you haven't completed the mandatory service time under the agreement, that permission will be next to impossible.

goreman
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Re: Military Law

Postby goreman » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:43 am

amped wrote:So two questions -

(1) How much "operational law" do JAGs do? I would definitely not be opposed to doing other kinds of law, and would probably find them interesting, but the operational part of it really intrigues me. Is this something you'd get any exposure to your first few years? Can you get more and more as you go on up and basically become an expert with this? (this is basically a question for Bateman, or any other lurking JAGs)

(2) If you become a JAG, and decide it's not for you, can you go into another specialty (e.g., armor or infantry or intelligence or anything else) after you complete your first four-year obligation? How would this work?


I'm going to try to attempt this from the Army perspective. For purposes of full disclosure, I'm an intel guy and not a JAG officer but I work hand in hand all the time with our brigade's legal office and have done a lot of looking into JAG as a possible career move myself after I'm complete with this deployment.

In answer to your first question, I agree that operational law is certainly something you can do a lot of and even specialize in. In the Army, this "branch" of the JAG Corps covers a lot of different tasks. It could be reviewing proposed operations to ensure the rules of engagement are not being broken, investigations of operational incidents, training Soldiers on law of war/rules of engagement issues, and so on. Additionally, there are money issues that are constantly looked at such as the use of CERP funds for proposed development contracts. In the Army, operational law also covers oversight of the intelligence community. It isn't hard to find jobs where you are involved in this, but also note that it is likely you'll be just as involved in plenty of other fields as well (ie. military justice). I also agree that while some operational issues may come up during your first assignement or two, JAG tends to want guys to rotate through all of its practice areas to gain a broad level of experience first. Lastly, somebody pointed out the LLM thing. In the Army, all majors in the JAG Corps go to the JAG school for ten months to get a LLM in military law and you can specialize in the operational and international law field.

As for the second question, I'm not sure about it with it being the end of your commitment, but the way I understand it is the Army considers a JD to be a rare attribute and it is highly unlikely that they'd approve you moving into other branches. You have a better chance of starting in another branch and then transferring into the JAG Corps in my opinion but I'm stretching the limits of my knowledge and expertise on the matter there.

Finally, I figured I'd put what I've seen our JAG guys working on here in our brigade headquarters. They have three JAG attorneys, their paralegals, and a civilian attorney from the State Department in their office. One of the JAGs is primarily focused on military justice matters and other investigations (15-6 investigations and the like). The major pretty much runs the office and is really the go-to guy for the operational side of things as he is the commander's primary legal advisor. He goes to all of the operational meetings like our targeting meetings and stuff. However, he also dips into just about every other field since he runs the legal office. The paralegals and one of the attorneys also handle the claims office. This could be Soldiers making claims against the government (ie. laundry was lost by the laundry guys) or by Afghans (ie. claiming money for windows accidentally destroyed at their house by the military). Lastly, the State department guy and one of the JAG captains is mainly focused on rule of law issues. They spend a LOT of time with the local Afghan courts, Army, and police to help develop the country's legal systems and educate them on civil rights and the like. They even spend quite a bit of time at the local law school in Afghanistan to support the education of new lawyers there. Lastly, the whole office also helps out with various legal services issues such as advising Soldiers on divorce issues (happens a lot), wills, powers of attorney, notarizing, and so on. Just thought I'd throw in an idea of the various kinds of work you can expect at least from what I've seen.

amped
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Re: Military Law

Postby amped » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:25 pm

Sent you a PM, goreman. Oh and thanks for the great responses to my questions.

FeuerFrei
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Re: Military Law

Postby FeuerFrei » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:41 pm

.
Last edited by FeuerFrei on Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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patrickd139
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Re: Military Law

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:41 pm

FeuerFrei wrote:
usnwfu wrote:See the problem I have with GLP, my grades won't come out till... first week jan? and they want the app sent in by the 15th? that's kinda pushing the deadline for teh SJA ain't it? how are you going about doing this?


Also wondering about this.

Also, if accepted to GLP or OYCP are you doing military summer internships or do you have to find one like everyone else?


Note: the following is for the AF GLP only and has may have no bearing on other service branches or the AF OYCP.

On the grades- my understanding is that few schools will have released grades in time to be considered by the SJA, but almost all will be released by the time the board meets in February. I have a letter from my law school confirming I am, in fact, enrolled, an official UG transcript and a copy of my LSAT confirmation. I will give those to the SJA for the initial interview and then supplement my application package for the admissions board when they become available.

On the internships- 1L summer is on your own, like everyone else. 2L summer is reserved for field training in Alabama (6 weeks long) that occurs during one of three time slots (beginning, middle or end of my law schools' summer break). There is no official internship program for the AF (each base is on a case-by-case basis). During your first summer, they encourage you to apply to other service branches' internships. During your second summer, they suggest some other form of legal experience (ala SA position or judicial clerkship) if you can arrange to split summers between the firm/judge/DA's office/etc. and the field training. My understanding is that employers in the south are much more amenable to splitting summers than in the north, but that's anecdotal at best.

ejjones wrote: What do you think they base glp on? Seeing as you had no real we, public service or ls grades, how do they decide? In general, I was just wondering if you had any pointers.


The official answer to your first question is that it's a "whole person" evaluation. Since there are no law school grades, I think this might actually be true. The most common factors seem to be willingness to serve, physical fitness (within a certain range), letters of recommendation and the other normal intangibles that provide the bases for first impressions in any interview.

Second, assuming a lack of public service because I lack military service is quite a leap in logic. In this case, it's also untrue.

As far as pointers, they're the same as PatrickBateman and so many others have dispensed ITT: be prompt, professional, conservative in looks/actions, genuine, and (if necessary) proactive. Sometimes you have to be the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Do not expect any service branch to go out of their way to "recruit" you; no one's that special. :wink:

articulably suspect
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Re: Military Law

Postby articulably suspect » Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:54 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
FeuerFrei wrote:
usnwfu wrote:See the problem I have with GLP, my grades won't come out till... first week jan? and they want the app sent in by the 15th? that's kinda pushing the deadline for teh SJA ain't it? how are you going about doing this?


Also wondering about this.

Also, if accepted to GLP or OYCP are you doing military summer internships or do you have to find one like everyone else?


Note: the following is for the AF GLP only and has may have no bearing on other service branches or the AF OYCP.

On the grades- my understanding is that few schools will have released grades in time to be considered by the SJA, but almost all will be released by the time the board meets in February. I have a letter from my law school confirming I am, in fact, enrolled, an official UG transcript and a copy of my LSAT confirmation. I will give those to the SJA for the initial interview and then supplement my application package for the admissions board when they become available.

On the internships- 1L summer is on your own, like everyone else. 2L summer is reserved for field training in Alabama (6 weeks long) that occurs during one of three time slots (beginning, middle or end of my law schools' summer break). There is no official internship program for the AF (each base is on a case-by-case basis). During your first summer, they encourage you to apply to other service branches' internships. During your second summer, they suggest some other form of legal experience (ala SA position or judicial clerkship) if you can arrange to split summers between the firm/judge/DA's office/etc. and the field training. My understanding is that employers in the south are much more amenable to splitting summers than in the north, but that's anecdotal at best.

ejjones wrote: What do you think they base glp on? Seeing as you had no real we, public service or ls grades, how do they decide? In general, I was just wondering if you had any pointers.


The official answer to your first question is that it's a "whole person" evaluation. Since there are no law school grades, I think this might actually be true. The most common factors seem to be willingness to serve, physical fitness (within a certain range), letters of recommendation and the other normal intangibles that provide the bases for first impressions in any interview.

Second, assuming a lack of public service because I lack military service is quite a leap in logic. In this case, it's also untrue.

As far as pointers, they're the same as PatrickBateman and so many others have dispensed ITT: be prompt, professional, conservative in looks/actions, genuine, and (if necessary) proactive. Sometimes you have to be the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Do not expect any service branch to go out of their way to "recruit" you; no one's that special. :wink:


True, my fault. I just figured you would've mentioned your public service in your post referring to your background, because it sounds like ps is a huge soft factor. Thanks.

eodops
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Re: Military Law

Postby eodops » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:03 pm

Good luck to all of those applying for GLP this year!

I am in the GLP program, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

First, the most important thing is your SJA interview. Many SJAs have sat on previous selection boards, so they know exactly what to write in your package that will provide a thumbs up or down. Every time I spoke with or visited the legal office where I interviewed I treated it like an interview. Your SJA will likely have you meet at least some of the enlisted and officer staff in the legal office. If you treat all of them professionally I think it goes a long way.

Second, have a professional photograph taken in a professional pose (even if it is at Walmart). My SJA told me about packages she had seen with a photograph of a person in shorts and flip-flops. Don't be that guy/girl.

Also, it is possible to go to field training after your 1L year instead of your 2L year; incase you are worried about internships for 1L's as opposed to 2L's.

If anyone has any specific questions about getting in the program or what comes next feel free to ask me. Again, best of luck!

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coolio
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Re: Military Law

Postby coolio » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:16 pm

thanks for the answers and for all this useful information

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patrickd139
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Re: Military Law

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:07 pm

ejjones wrote: True, my fault. I just figured you would've mentioned your public service in your post referring to your background, because it sounds like ps is a huge soft factor. Thanks.


No harm, no foul.

eod: how did you go about scheduling field training during your 1L summer? I was explicitly told that was not an option, but would love to get that out of the way if I'm accepted.

eodops
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Re: Military Law

Postby eodops » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:36 pm

There are two ways to do it. In my case, I am prior enlisted, so my det just put in for an allocation and I went. If you are not prior service, you can still go. You just have to do an extra week at field training before the "normal" cadets show up. Either way you need to get your det to buy off on it.

If you are able to go during your 1L summer I would strongly recommend attending as much field training prep as you possibly can at your det and attending the extended field training.

MrTexas
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Re: Military Law

Postby MrTexas » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:32 pm

I had a question about the physical they give you. How invasive is it? Are we talking borderline prostate exam? Do they do a hair test or a piss test for drugs?




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