Military Law

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shintopig
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Re: Military Law

Postby shintopig » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Yes, you would be told your duty station, and then you can accept that and commission or go on your merry way.

Thanks! Does anyone have any knowledge of how this works for Navy/Army?

Anonymous User wrote:-Is it still the case that the AF tells you your duty station before you commission? I assume neither Army nor Navy are that way?

Recently, accepted USN SP here. Technically commissioned, but awaiting detailing.

So, for SP (student program) I was accepted in December, commissioned last month (May) and I still don't know where I'm going for my first assignment. So I've signed my service agreement & been commissioned, but all I know is that likely the USN will send me to 1 of my 6 preferred duty locations.

As far as I know DA (direct applicants) undergo more-or-less the same order of events; eg. you won't know where you're going until you sign. Check out the DA Website (http://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/career ... es_da.html)

Anonymous User wrote:-Is Navy still the best place to go if you're primarily interested (as I am) in military justice, getting a lot of courtroom time, and serving as a SAUSA?

I cannot answer this in full (yet).

But, I would just add that AR & AF JAs have the option to handle government contracting. I know several AF JAs who review gov't contracts or defend bid protests etc. I was exposed to it a bit during my AF internship 2L year.

USN JAs don't really do this, the OGC (Office of General Counsel) handles contracting for the USN. This is the civilian wing of the Navy's legal force. I made the mistake of referencing an interest in contracting as a JA in my USN interview, only to have my interviewing officers correct my mistake. USN JAs focus more on advocacy & legal assistance.

So USN JAs have one less area to handle there than their AR & AF counterparts. Take what you will from that.
Last edited by shintopig on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:18 pm

shintopig wrote:USN JAs focus more on advocacy & legal assistance.

I keep hearing that you guys get a lot more ops law experience as well. That seems to be a dirty little secret no one tells us, because I've had several AF JAGS get disappointed when they find out ops experience isn't really that plentiful for us.

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shintopig
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Re: Military Law

Postby shintopig » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:52 pm

howell wrote:
shintopig wrote:USN JAs focus more on advocacy & legal assistance.

I keep hearing that you guys get a lot more ops law experience as well. That seems to be a dirty little secret no one tells us, because I've had several AF JAGS get disappointed when they find out ops experience isn't really that plentiful for us.

Hmm, I'll have to report back on this once I find out more.

Before the point was that if you subtract contracting (AF puts that into gen. law right?) from the USN palate, then that leaves (in theory) more time spent in other areas. I suppose in addition to mil. justice & legal assist., it would include ops. law.

Both my interviewing USN JAs had substantial ops. law experience. So there may be some truth to it.

Although, my AF SJA (from my internship & later-interview), grouped ops. law & ops. readiness together. She considered, for example, deciding which commanding officer has power over what to be ops. law in theory. So a wing setting up shop in a base involves ops law, even though its not strictly law of war or rules of engagement type stuff.

Kind of a broad definition I'd say. But using that definition, AF JAs would do more ops law than traditionally given credit for. What do you think howell?
Last edited by shintopig on Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

cbro
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Re: Military Law

Postby cbro » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:03 am

I have a question for current GLP students or JAGs who commissioned through GLP.

Obviously I will want to do as well as I can in law school. I will work extremely hard for good grades and try to work my way onto law review, trial advocacy, etc. the question I have is this: does acceptance to the GLP or OYCP in any way lessen the "stress" of law school or make it more enjoyable? Does it make it more stressful? Since most of my classmates will probably be gunning for Biglaw or corporate work, I can only imagine that acceptance to GLP would mitigate the competitive aspect of law school somewhat. Again, not using JAG as a cop out or a way to make life easier on myself, just wondering about the way it impacts lifestyle during law school.

Thanks for the great info in this thread!

Cbro

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:25 pm

Hey all,

Long time lurker here. I appreciate all the insight everyone has provided. This thread is an invaluable bank of knowledge for people interested in joining the JAG Corps.

As for me, I was selected to the USN SP in April 2014 (for the 2015 class). After a grueling 14 months, I have exhausted all appeals for a waiver on a physical DQ. I got the final letter today, and I'm pretty bummed about it (an understatement). I was just selected to the USAF DAP so maybe there is a chance they grant a waiver but I'm not getting my hopes up. Anyways, I just wanted to vent.

For the 2015 USN SP alternates, a spot will soon be opening up, and I hope someone in here snags my seat. Best of luck.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:07 pm

If you don't mind sharing, what was your waiver failure for?

edja0603
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Re: Military Law

Postby edja0603 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:27 pm

I just went through MEPS and am waiting on my own waiver. I was selected for the AF DAP from the Dec 14 board. It was weird because all I got from the people at MEPS was "I can't really say if you'll get the waiver or not."

It's kept me up at night.

coffee282
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Re: Military Law

Postby coffee282 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey all,

Long time lurker here. I appreciate all the insight everyone has provided. This thread is an invaluable bank of knowledge for people interested in joining the JAG Corps.

As for me, I was selected to the USN SP in April 2014 (for the 2015 class). After a grueling 14 months, I have exhausted all appeals for a waiver on a physical DQ. I got the final letter today, and I'm pretty bummed about it (an understatement). I was just selected to the USAF DAP so maybe there is a chance they grant a waiver but I'm not getting my hopes up. Anyways, I just wanted to vent.

For the 2015 USN SP alternates, a spot will soon be opening up, and I hope someone in here snags my seat. Best of luck.


I am so sorry about that. I cannot imagine how crushing it is to wait that long for that answer. I really hope your AF endeavours work out better. Waiting for MEPS is a special kind of hell.

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:31 pm

coffee282 wrote:
I am so sorry about that. I cannot imagine how crushing it is to wait that long for that answer. I really hope your AF endeavours work out better. Waiting for MEPS is a special kind of hell.


+1, really sorry to hear that.

howell wrote:Most deployments are still going to southwest Asia/northeast Africa, and Afghanistan is definitely included. But most assignments tend to be at relatively established bases. I'm at a great location - the struggle tomorrow is that the pool is closed for cleaning. There are assignments in other places (South America, southeast Asia, etc.), but there are fewer of those.

A lot of us have good access to the Internet, so I could call/e-mail/Facetime my wife any day I wanted out here. This isn't true for all locations, but probably more than you think. That definitely helps with the time apart.


I can't compare/contrast the two well enough, but there is a lot of responsibility early on. Not just from what's dumped on you, but from what you can take for yourself. I tried my first sex assault case to a jury 6 months out of training. Any part of the case/trial would likely have been open to me if I put in the work and showed that I could do it. There's a lot of opportunity.

I think you're right about the exit opportunities. Certainly it depends on what you get your hands on in the JAG Corps, but I would imagine you would have more flexibility.

Probably, but that says more about what I think would be involved in being an ADA. There are definitely politics in the AF JAG Corps, and it's not a pure meritocracy by any means. It's more about who you can convince that you're a golden child. Many of the golden children will tell you this.

Probably, yes. Your wife's salary will put you in a different boat than most JAGs, but we generally murder the IRS. I'd have to be making ~$100k in the private sector in flyover country to get the same take-home income/benefits (and that's not factoring in the possibility of the retirement benefit).


This, or rather meaningful and/or unique work, is a big draw for me. Sometimes we work on issues that civilians would never get their hands on. That's pretty cool. But there are plenty of TPS reports too.

The training can also be fun. Certainly some of it is death by PowerPoint, but getting sent to study a subject for 1-2 weeks at a cool location is probably something you don't get to do much at a law firm.


Thanks for all of this. Yeah, I think there are a lot of advantages, but I think it might be too logistically difficult for me to do. I just have no idea what to do with myself generally. I just know that I probably can't and certainly don't want to last more than another year at my current job, and my wife's situation makes this impossible to figure out.


shintopig wrote:Recently, accepted USN SP here. Technically commissioned, but awaiting detailing.

So, for SP (student program) I was accepted in December, commissioned last month (May) and I still don't know where I'm going for my first assignment. So I've signed my service agreement & been commissioned, but all I know is that likely the USN will send me to 1 of my 6 preferred duty locations.

As far as I know DA (direct applicants) undergo more-or-less the same order of events; eg. you won't know where you're going until you sign. Check out the DA Website (http://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/career ... es_da.html)


Yikes. No idea how/if I could make this work. Thanks.


howell wrote:
shintopig wrote:USN JAs focus more on advocacy & legal assistance.

I keep hearing that you guys get a lot more ops law experience as well. That seems to be a dirty little secret no one tells us, because I've had several AF JAGS get disappointed when they find out ops experience isn't really that plentiful for us.



This actually sounds pretty interesting. Will look into it more. Thanks guys/gals.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law

Postby S. Goodman » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:29 pm

For the two people that mentioned waivers from MEPS, what were you trying to have waivered?

Was it an admission you made during the process on your paperwork, history, or something they found while you were there at MEPS?

Just curious as to the types of things they are medically dinging people for.

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If you don't mind sharing, what was your waiver failure for?


S. Goodman wrote:For the two people that mentioned waivers from MEPS, what were you trying to have waivered?

Was it an admission you made during the process on your paperwork, history, or something they found while you were there at MEPS?

Just curious as to the types of things they are medically dinging people for.


(I am the anon above that got dinged by the USN)

My issue was protein in the urine. Something I've had since I was little. I admitted it in the prescreen and never got past that.

coffee282
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Re: Military Law

Postby coffee282 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:20 pm

S. Goodman wrote:For the two people that mentioned waivers from MEPS, what were you trying to have waivered?

Was it an admission you made during the process on your paperwork, history, or something they found while you were there at MEPS?

Just curious as to the types of things they are medically dinging people for.


I don't remember if you're a prior, but it seems this is the controlling MEPS reg: http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r40_501.pdf

Of course, individual branches supplements on top of the above reg and has its own waiver process.. so you may want to do more research if you have a specific condition you're worried about.

edja0603
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Re: Military Law

Postby edja0603 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:41 pm

I had a bad car accident 13 years ago and my right eye won't turn to the right because of it. I let them know in my screening. Still waiting to hear back on the waiver.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:05 pm

Keep in mind if you're a prior who still has a reserve status you may be evaluated on a retention standard, which is a lot more lenient

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:02 pm

Anyone know anything about atrial septal defects/PFO? Doesn't seem like it's a DQ for AF but Navy says that "congenital heart defects" are non-waivable. Curiously enough, seems like you can be a PQ aviator with a PFO...

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law

Postby S. Goodman » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:05 pm

coffee282 wrote:
S. Goodman wrote:For the two people that mentioned waivers from MEPS, what were you trying to have waivered?

Was it an admission you made during the process on your paperwork, history, or something they found while you were there at MEPS?

Just curious as to the types of things they are medically dinging people for.


I don't remember if you're a prior, but it seems this is the controlling MEPS reg: http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r40_501.pdf

Of course, individual branches supplements on top of the above reg and has its own waiver process.. so you may want to do more research if you have a specific condition you're worried about.



Yeah I am a prior Marine. Thanks for the link, I'll peruse that. I haven't had a medical change in status since I left active duty in 2012. But as many of you are, I am also a big worrier and I have to go to MEPS in a few weeks, for the USN.

mbkc03
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Re: Military Law

Postby mbkc03 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:28 am

Does the Army JAG Corps revoke an offer if you fail the bar the first time around?

herring3279
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Re: Military Law

Postby herring3279 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:09 pm

cbro wrote:I have a question for current GLP students or JAGs who commissioned through GLP.

Obviously I will want to do as well as I can in law school. I will work extremely hard for good grades and try to work my way onto law review, trial advocacy, etc. the question I have is this: does acceptance to the GLP or OYCP in any way lessen the "stress" of law school or make it more enjoyable? Does it make it more stressful? Since most of my classmates will probably be gunning for Biglaw or corporate work, I can only imagine that acceptance to GLP would mitigate the competitive aspect of law school somewhat. Again, not using JAG as a cop out or a way to make life easier on myself, just wondering about the way it impacts lifestyle during law school.

Thanks for the great info in this thread!

Cbro


Hi Cbro,

I was accepted to AF JAG through the GLP this spring. I feel like the "stress" of finding a job is reduced but there are additional things required of you during law school by being accepted into the GLP or OYCP. I had to pass medical clearance for the military, need to pass the AFOQT, and finish the course material for the 100 and 200 level ROTC classes this summer before contracting with AFROTC in the fall. Next semester, I will be taking 5 more credits of ROTC classes in addition to my law classes which required me to get a waiver from the dean. I don't think the next 2 years will necessarily be more stressful because I feel very relieved to have been chosen. It's just, at least at my school, no one has really done this before and I have to figure it out mostly on my own. It's been going smoothly though thus far and AFJAG was my goal coming into law school so the additional requirements aren't a big deal to me. :)

cbro
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Re: Military Law

Postby cbro » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:26 pm

herring3279 wrote:
cbro wrote:I have a question for current GLP students or JAGs who commissioned through GLP.

Obviously I will want to do as well as I can in law school. I will work extremely hard for good grades and try to work my way onto law review, trial advocacy, etc. the question I have is this: does acceptance to the GLP or OYCP in any way lessen the "stress" of law school or make it more enjoyable? Does it make it more stressful? Since most of my classmates will probably be gunning for Biglaw or corporate work, I can only imagine that acceptance to GLP would mitigate the competitive aspect of law school somewhat. Again, not using JAG as a cop out or a way to make life easier on myself, just wondering about the way it impacts lifestyle during law school.

Thanks for the great info in this thread!

Cbro


Hi Cbro,

I was accepted to AF JAG through the GLP this spring. I feel like the "stress" of finding a job is reduced but there are additional things required of you during law school by being accepted into the GLP or OYCP. I had to pass medical clearance for the military, need to pass the AFOQT, and finish the course material for the 100 and 200 level ROTC classes this summer before contracting with AFROTC in the fall. Next semester, I will be taking 5 more credits of ROTC classes in addition to my law classes which required me to get a waiver from the dean. I don't think the next 2 years will necessarily be more stressful because I feel very relieved to have been chosen. It's just, at least at my school, no one has really done this before and I have to figure it out mostly on my own. It's been going smoothly though thus far and AFJAG was my goal coming into law school so the additional requirements aren't a big deal to me. :)


Hey,

First, congratulations on your acceptance, that's awesome! And thanks for the amazing information. I don't mean to shoot more questions at you, but there are some additional things I was wondering about. After talking to some of the older law students at my future school, I decided that I would really like to study abroad at some point during law school. I graduated early from undergrad and never studied abroad and have never even been out of the country, so studying abroad in some capacity is very appealing and important to me. Would GLP commitments such as PT and class prevent me from studying abroad? Are there any other similar opportunities that one would have to forgo because of GLP commitments?

Also, can I ask why you personally decided to pursue JAG coming into law school? JAG's greatest appeal to me is the chance to serve my country in uniform in a way that utilizes my specific skills. I think that serving the country is a very noble thing to do. However, my school places about a third of its class into biglaw jobs with starting salaries of $160,000/year and midlaw job prospects aren't bad either. I understand the monetary benefits of JAG, but what is it like living alongside classmates who are gunning for these sort of jobs that would be available to me?

Feel free to PM me if you would prefer not to answer on here :)

Cbro

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bsktbll28082
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Re: Military Law

Postby bsktbll28082 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:45 am

Anyone have data on how many the Coast Guard has picked up in recent years through their DCL program? I know the number is low.

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usn26
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Re: Military Law

Postby usn26 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:03 am

bsktbll28082 wrote:Anyone have data on how many the Coast Guard has picked up in recent years through their DCL program? I know the number is low.


https://www.gocoastguard.com/sites/defa ... 14_1_0.pdf

Page 67

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bsktbll28082
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Re: Military Law

Postby bsktbll28082 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:24 pm

usn26 wrote:
bsktbll28082 wrote:Anyone have data on how many the Coast Guard has picked up in recent years through their DCL program? I know the number is low.


https://www.gocoastguard.com/sites/defa ... 14_1_0.pdf

Page 67


Excellent, thanks

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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:06 pm

I was recently presented with a appellate clerkship opportunity while I've been working all of the paperwork for my commission (I have not signed any commitment as of yet). Has anyone ever been selected (Navy JAG or other branches) and successfully deferred their start date for a year in order to complete a clerkship?

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law

Postby S. Goodman » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:I was recently presented with a appellate clerkship opportunity while I've been working all of the paperwork for my commission (I have not signed any commitment as of yet). Has anyone ever been selected (Navy JAG or other branches) and successfully deferred their start date for a year in order to complete a clerkship?



I'm also curious about this if anyone has any information. If not a clerkship, what about delaying a year to obtain an LLM?

JAG Hopeful
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Re: Military Law

Postby JAG Hopeful » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:I was recently presented with a appellate clerkship opportunity while I've been working all of the paperwork for my commission (I have not signed any commitment as of yet). Has anyone ever been selected (Navy JAG or other branches) and successfully deferred their start date for a year in order to complete a clerkship?


First, congratulations on both the clerkship and the PR – that’s very exciting!

From what others on this thread have posted, it is indeed possible to defer for a year to do a judicial clerkship. JAGs in the Army and Air Force have done so below (although I haven’t run across any Navy JAGs):
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31543&p=6885083&hilit=Clerkship#p6885083

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31543&p=7149403&hilit=Clerkship#p7149403

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31543&p=8346322&hilit=Clerkship#p8346322

However, these were all several years ago during the armed forces downsizing. They actually needed lots of JAGs to defer their start of active duty for a year based on personnel shifts. I would call LCDR Gehlen at Accessions and ask; it can’t hurt.
Last edited by JAG Hopeful on Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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