Military Law

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ShwimU18
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Re: Military Law

Postby ShwimU18 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:29 am

JAG Hopeful wrote:Anyone heard anything from the Navy yet? Mine's still pending.



I'm still pending, too.

shay2171
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Re: Military Law

Postby shay2171 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:41 pm

Hey guys, I am currently in the midst of choosing a law school. I am trying to tailor my education a little bit to prepare myself to apply to the JAG Corp. I want to ask how influential do you think it is if you go to a school with multiple professors that are current/former JAG would be? Assuming you could get a glowing letter of recommendation from them. Thanks!
Last edited by shay2171 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

atsok79
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Re: Military Law

Postby atsok79 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:27 pm

For all the April AF DAP applicants, where air force base did you interview at

Sportsmania902
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Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:19 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Sportsmania902 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:53 pm

For AF April Board I interviewed at MacDill AFB. Still have not heard anything. Also applied to Navy JAG. Application is still pending on that one as well. Waiting game is killing me.

rtb2008x
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Re: Military Law

Postby rtb2008x » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:31 pm

Still pending here too

ss3db1
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Re: Military Law

Postby ss3db1 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:10 am

shay2171 wrote:Hey guys, I am currently in the midst of choosing a law school. I am trying to tailor my education a little bit to prepare myself to apply to the JAG Corp. I want to ask how influential do you think it is if you go to a school with multiple professors that are current/former JAG would be? Assuming you could get a glowing letter of recommendation from them. Thanks!


Just my two cents. I was accepted to the AF GLP this year and I am at a school with no former or current JAG officers as professors, nor did I have any letters of recommendation from any current/former JAG officers. I would choose your law school based on what you consider to be the best fit for you, be that scholarship, location, unwavering TLS fanaticism for T14 or bust, etc. Just remember, if JAG really is your career of choice you don't make Big Law money, so debt should always be a factor (even with the AF kindly repaying up to $60k of my loans).

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:01 pm

Question for those who've gone through PCS:

Are you given a specific date or can you choose one? I'm curious because my start date won't be until after I take the bar, but I was hoping to move in June instead. Thoughts?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:31 pm

shay2171 wrote:Hey guys, I am currently in the midst of choosing a law school. I am trying to tailor my education a little bit to prepare myself to apply to the JAG Corp. I want to ask how influential do you think it is if you go to a school with multiple professors that are current/former JAG would be? Assuming you could get a glowing letter of recommendation from them. Thanks!


I would never recommend to a JAG hopeful to pick a law school exclusively based on JAG aspirations. Your goals may change or you may never make it into the JAG Corps - there are plenty of posters on this thread that endured multiple board rejections or were accepted only to get DQ-ed due to medical issues. If you have read this thread (and all new posters really should - the whole "it's totes long bra" disclaimer thrown into questions on topics that have been previously covered really does not carry water) you will see time and time again that there is no silver bullet for JAG accessions. It is a whole person concept compounded with absolutely no transparency in respect to selection results. Pay no attention to the man behind the JAG accessions curtain.

Pick a law school that will enable you to have a happy and productive civilian career. As ss3db1 notes, debt should be a huge concern. So should geography, where your school places grads, and what those grads go on to do. The mere possibility of favorable letters of recommendation from some former JAG should absolutely not play into your law school selection, short of absolutely every other variable being equal. You also need to consider the weight of letters of recommendation are given compared to all the other elements of an application package.

As an aside, I'm not sure where you got it in your head that active duty JAGs serve as law faculty anywhere. There may be the stray adjunct professor here and there but the only places active duty JAGs law are at the respective JAG Schools and service academies. Some law schools, Texas Tech for example, have a handful of prominent former JAGs as professors and the former Air Force DJAG, Major General (Ret.) Dunlap, teaches at Duke Law.

shay2171
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Re: Military Law

Postby shay2171 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:49 pm

Oh the current/former thing is more hypothetical than anything. I am aware of how selective this process is. In fact I will be working in law school under the auspices that I will not be selected for a position in JAG at all. But if there was something that I would make me a better candidate, I wanted to know.
Bateman, your input is always appreciated

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law

Postby S. Goodman » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Question for those who've gone through PCS:

Are you given a specific date or can you choose one? I'm curious because my start date won't be until after I take the bar, but I was hoping to move in June instead. Thoughts?



Former Marine here, 08-12.

You generally have two options when PCS'ing to your new duty station. (1) You move your stuff yourself from point A to point B, you rent a rental truck and weigh it empty, then have it weighed again after you finish loading it. The military will then reimburse 85% (give or take, I can't remember precisely) of what the civilians would charge to move that weight, that money goes directly to you for moving your own stuff, and usually you end up with a pretty substantial chunk of change in your pocket, (maybe 10k depending on how much stuff you have) but you have the hassle of moving your stuff yourself. But then again you also know your stuff won't get mistreated because no mover is going to take care of it like you will.

(2) The second option is to coordinate with the civilian company the military uses to PCS people. The movers come to your old house, box your stuff and ship it to your new house. You have to coordinate the pick up and drop off times with them directly. The military picks up the tab and you get nothing. You're going to have substantially less control over what date your stuff is moved if you take this option. Presumably you'd have to have orders set and ready to go before you can work out the details with the civilian movers, but I don't know maybe you can make the dates work for you.

These two options generally exist with moving yourself as well, the military usually will give you the option of them buying your plane tickets, or reimbursing you for your gas to drive yourself. A lot will depend on how far away you duty station is, some times it is bus tickets instead of plane tickets.

My personal recommendation is just to move the stuff yourself and have the military reimburse you. This is always what I have done and I've heard a lot of horror stories from the people that do choose to use the civilians. Mainly with having to wait and coordinate, stuff getting broken etc. etc.

If you move your stuff yourself you will have pretty much complete autonomy of when your stuff gets moved, so long as you report to your base by the date on your orders you are good to go. I wouldn't move until you had orders in hand and were certain that things wont change. And again, depending on your weight and expenses, there is a real potential to walk away with 5-10K if you do the trip right.

As a disclaimer, this information is from my experience in the Marines in 2012, there might be a slight variation in specific details based on the base, branch, and timing. Hopefully some other prior service guys will chime in.

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:01 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Question for those who've gone through PCS:

Are you given a specific date or can you choose one? I'm curious because my start date won't be until after I take the bar, but I was hoping to move in June instead. Thoughts?



Former Marine here, 08-12.

You generally have two options when PCS'ing to your new duty station. (1) You move your stuff yourself from point A to point B, you rent a rental truck and weigh it empty, then have it weighed again after you finish loading it. The military will then reimburse 85% (give or take, I can't remember precisely) of what the civilians would charge to move that weight, that money goes directly to you for moving your own stuff, and usually you end up with a pretty substantial chunk of change in your pocket, (maybe 10k depending on how much stuff you have) but you have the hassle of moving your stuff yourself. But then again you also know your stuff won't get mistreated because no mover is going to take care of it like you will.

(2) The second option is to coordinate with the civilian company the military uses to PCS people. The movers come to your old house, box your stuff and ship it to your new house. You have to coordinate the pick up and drop off times with them directly. The military picks up the tab and you get nothing. You're going to have substantially less control over what date your stuff is moved if you take this option. Presumably you'd have to have orders set and ready to go before you can work out the details with the civilian movers, but I don't know maybe you can make the dates work for you.

These two options generally exist with moving yourself as well, the military usually will give you the option of them buying your plane tickets, or reimbursing you for your gas to drive yourself. A lot will depend on how far away you duty station is, some times it is bus tickets instead of plane tickets.

My personal recommendation is just to move the stuff yourself and have the military reimburse you. This is always what I have done and I've heard a lot of horror stories from the people that do choose to use the civilians. Mainly with having to wait and coordinate, stuff getting broken etc. etc.

If you move your stuff yourself you will have pretty much complete autonomy of when your stuff gets moved, so long as you report to your base by the date on your orders you are good to go. I wouldn't move until you had orders in hand and were certain that things wont change. And again, depending on your weight and expenses, there is a real potential to walk away with 5-10K if you do the trip right.

As a disclaimer, this information is from my experience in the Marines in 2012, there might be a slight variation in specific details based on the base, branch, and timing. Hopefully some other prior service guys will chime in.


Thank you so much! I'm about to PM you for a follow-up question.

jagnut
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Re: Military Law

Postby jagnut » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Don't forget the third option: a partial DITY. Some people opt for a full DITY (Do IT Yourself, I believe) for the fund raising, but many swear they'll never do it again, especially if they have a full house worth of crap. Packing/moving/unpacking sucks. TMO is a huge perk in the military, IMO

A partial allows you to blend the options. You can load your own uhaul or even just your car (weigh it empty and full) and you'll get paid for that weight along with the mileage and per diem, while letting the movers handle the rest. You won't make nearly as much, but you can have a little cake and eat it too.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:02 pm

jagnut wrote:Don't forget the third option: a partial DITY. Some people opt for a full DITY (Do IT Yourself, I believe) for the fund raising, but many swear they'll never do it again, especially if they have a full house worth of crap. Packing/moving/unpacking sucks. TMO is a huge perk in the military, IMO

A partial allows you to blend the options. You can load your own uhaul or even just your car (weigh it empty and full) and you'll get paid for that weight along with the mileage and per diem, while letting the movers handle the rest. You won't make nearly as much, but you can have a little cake and eat it too.


This is how I handled all of my CONUS moves. I was going to fill up my car was essentials, firearms, and breakables no matter what, so this allowed me to make some money from it and have the government contracted movers do the real heavy lifting. Everyone I know that has done the full DITY ended up regretting it. If you are a bachelor without a lot of stuff, it can be do-able, but beyond that you are inviting a headache. The money can be good, as Mr. Goodman notes, but make sure you evaluate the sweat equity and opportunity costs before chasing a few extra bucks.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law

Postby S. Goodman » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:28 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:The money can be good, as Mr. Goodman notes, but make sure you evaluate the sweat equity and opportunity costs before chasing a few extra bucks.



Totally agree with this, doing it all yourself isn't for the faint of heart, but if you can live with the hassle you could get a sizable reward at the end. :D Certainly pro's and con's to all three options though.

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:24 am

Can any current or past AF JAGs speak to the possibility or likelihood of obtaining a TS clearance?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:Can any current or past AF JAGs speak to the possibility or likelihood of obtaining a TS clearance?


You have to wind up with a job that requires one. Most jobs for junior JAGs do not.

I received one out of my first assignment due to my deployment - a lot of deployments require a TS or higher.

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:30 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can any current or past AF JAGs speak to the possibility or likelihood of obtaining a TS clearance?


You have to wind up with a job that requires one. Most jobs for junior JAGs do not.

I received one out of my first assignment due to my deployment - a lot of deployments require a TS or higher.


Thank you. Let's say I served a minimum of 6 years, would the majority of JAGs need one by that point either through assignment or deployment? Half?

Scoot Scoot
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Re: Military Law

Postby Scoot Scoot » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:51 am

atsok79 wrote:For all the April AF DAP applicants, where air force base did you interview at

MacDill.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can any current or past AF JAGs speak to the possibility or likelihood of obtaining a TS clearance?


You have to wind up with a job that requires one. Most jobs for junior JAGs do not.

I received one out of my first assignment due to my deployment - a lot of deployments require a TS or higher.


Thank you. Let's say I served a minimum of 6 years, would the majority of JAGs need one by that point either through assignment or deployment? Half?


I would say a fair share, maybe not a majority, of the JAGs from my class ended up with a TS or higher. That is due to a huge amount of us deploying due to OIF/OEF. But for the deployment, most of us probably would not have received a elevated clearance (we all have a secret starting out). Deployments are tapering off right now so these positions will become more rare.

If you are not lucky enough to get a deployment, you can still attempt to maneuver to the garrison assignments that have a TS requirement - most special operations, ISR, and cyber units will require a TS/SCI. Even then you are not guaranteed to get one - for example, the 1st Special Operations Wing at Hurlburt Field, FL has a legal office but most of the first/second assignment folks there will not automatically get a clearance.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law

Postby S. Goodman » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can any current or past AF JAGs speak to the possibility or likelihood of obtaining a TS clearance?



Just curious, but why the ambition to obtain a TS clearance? Some perk related to that I am unaware of?

I had a secret clearance while active duty in the Marines and that didn't affect my life whatsoever. I knew multiple people who had the TS, never heard anything special associated with that other than a more extensive background check.

Just wondering . . .

Anonymous User
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Re: Military Law

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:17 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can any current or past AF JAGs speak to the possibility or likelihood of obtaining a TS clearance?



Just curious, but why the ambition to obtain a TS clearance? Some perk related to that I am unaware of?

I had a secret clearance while active duty in the Marines and that didn't affect my life whatsoever. I knew multiple people who had the TS, never heard anything special associated with that other than a more extensive background check.

Just wondering . . .


Short answer: marketability. TS clearances take a long time to acquire and are very expensive, so having one makes you a cheaper, quicker hire. Familiarity with a cleared environment is also a plus.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law

Postby S. Goodman » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Short answer: marketability. TS clearances take a long time to acquire and are very expensive, so having one makes you a cheaper, quicker hire. Familiarity with a cleared environment is also a plus.



Oh ... well alright then.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
S. Goodman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Can any current or past AF JAGs speak to the possibility or likelihood of obtaining a TS clearance?



Just curious, but why the ambition to obtain a TS clearance? Some perk related to that I am unaware of?

I had a secret clearance while active duty in the Marines and that didn't affect my life whatsoever. I knew multiple people who had the TS, never heard anything special associated with that other than a more extensive background check.

Just wondering . . .


Short answer: marketability. TS clearances take a long time to acquire and are very expensive, so having one makes you a cheaper, quicker hire. Familiarity with a cleared environment is also a plus.


What you said is true. That said, the marketability is not universal, especially in the legal world. As someone with time in the intel community and the clearance to go along with it, I can tell you first hand that there were not exactly folks champing at the bit to hire me just because I had a clearance. There are the three letter agencies, the contractors that support them, and a handful of other niche pockets, for sure but that is really it. For those that want that line of work for their career, that can be great, but also in towns like DC, a lawyer with a military background and a TS/SCI are a dime a dozen.

Law firms have no use for a clearance and the vast majority of Federal jobs don't either. Your DOD clearance does not translate to other agencies, so the marketability to DHS, DOJ, DOS, and the like is reduced - they like knowing you survived the clearance process once and therefore don't have show stoppers in your background, and it can help smooth a temporary clearance, but you will still have to undergo a full investigation by their security people.

I'm not looking to quibble and you seem to have a hold on the practical merits of the clearance beyond the fact that it sounds cool, but don't bet the family farm on hoping to get a clearance and then hoping it leads to a great civilian job down the road.

I'm now regretting that I did not try to work the old security clearance joke organically into any of my replies: "What's your clearance?" "Oh, about six foot two."

jjm123
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Re: Military Law

Postby jjm123 » Fri May 01, 2015 12:48 pm

I have a quick question that I haven't been able to find in this thread, which I've read the entirety of, albeit a lot of skimming between people waiting for the boards and the various pissing matches people get into.

I was selected for Army JAG off of the alternates list. Before being selected for Active Duty I signed a letter of intent to commission with the Army, then a few weeks later I was picked up for AD. I was just selected for Navy JAG and I would like to select Navy over Army. Does the Army letter of intent bar me from accepting Navy? I know the letter of intent does not lock me in for the 4 year commitment for the Army and all that, but I'm not sure if there are any other repercussions from signing it.

JAG Hopeful
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Re: Military Law

Postby JAG Hopeful » Fri May 01, 2015 2:17 pm

Navy results are posted. I, and a bunch of the others from the Navy-specific forum got picked up! :)




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