Military Law

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Kalas
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kalas » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:09 pm

Patrick, thanks for your contribution to this thread. What's your take on the JA interviewer encouraging you to reapply? Are they just blowing smoke? In my case he encouraged me to reapply if I wasn't selected and he offered to help in his capacity as the JA interviewer with my application.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:25 pm

Kalas wrote:Patrick, thanks for your contribution to this thread. What's your take on the JA interviewer encouraging you to reapply? Are they just blowing smoke? In my case he encouraged me to reapply if I wasn't selected and he offered to help in his capacity as the JA interviewer with my application.


By interviewer, you mean the SJA?

Barely anyone gets picked up by their first board. It's almost guaranteed you won't if you are coming in as a pure civilian, without any military/government experience. Reapplying is absolutely necessary and I would take up the SJA up on whatever help he/she is offering. Most SJAs are incredibly busy so it may say a lot about you if he/she is willing to go above and beyond.

We did a poll among the Captains in my office (a big base legal office) a while back and only one Direct Appointee got through on his first board. Everyone else had to reapply at least once. And this was back when the economy was good.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:01 pm

Definitely reapply. About 8% of people who apply get picked up for air force/navy, and of those 8%, maybe a handful are applying for their first time.

and that goes for OYCP/Student Program, or DA

BHL
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Re: Military Law

Postby BHL » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:05 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
BHL wrote:PB, is there a link to the new loan repayment program? In a quick google search, I didn't find anything outside of a few articles on Army's version.


Negative. As I mentioned in the post, it is still unofficial, in the sense that HQ USAF or TJAG has not unveiled it. That said, it successfully navigated all the bureaucratic channels and was passed on to my leadership, from their leadership, as a done deal.

As soon as I get something I am able to pass on for public consumption, I will.

It's supposed to be identical to the Army program, right?

BHL
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Re: Military Law

Postby BHL » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:15 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Kalas wrote:Patrick, thanks for your contribution to this thread. What's your take on the JA interviewer encouraging you to reapply? Are they just blowing smoke? In my case he encouraged me to reapply if I wasn't selected and he offered to help in his capacity as the JA interviewer with my application.


By interviewer, you mean the SJA?

Barely anyone gets picked up by their first board. It's almost guaranteed you won't if you are coming in as a pure civilian, without any military/government experience. Reapplying is absolutely necessary and I would take up the SJA up on whatever help he/she is offering. Most SJAs are incredibly busy so it may say a lot about you if he/she is willing to go above and beyond.

We did a poll among the Captains in my office (a big base legal office) a while back and only one Direct Appointee got through on his first board. Everyone else had to reapply at least once. And this was back when the economy was good.

I wonder how I ended up with an offer on my first try, especially given the economy. I think having applied to the summer internships of the branches might've helped, but who knows.

Having an SJA who likes you really helps imo. I felt like the the one I had was really pulling for me and was trying to assist me get in as much as he could. If you can make some sort of connection before the real interview part of the interview begins, then I think you'll help your application immensely. It's hard to fake being genuinely interested in these things and the tactic pays off in all interviews. Nevertheless, the SJA I had had some cool experiences, which made asking the questions and being genuinely interested very easy.

Like others have mentioned in prior posts, the admissions people are looking for people who have a demonstrated interest in JAG. Making you reapply through their cumbersome process helps them weed through the half-interested and the truly interested.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:53 pm

BHL wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
BHL wrote:PB, is there a link to the new loan repayment program? In a quick google search, I didn't find anything outside of a few articles on Army's version.


Negative. As I mentioned in the post, it is still unofficial, in the sense that HQ USAF or TJAG has not unveiled it. That said, it successfully navigated all the bureaucratic channels and was passed on to my leadership, from their leadership, as a done deal.

As soon as I get something I am able to pass on for public consumption, I will.

It's supposed to be identical to the Army program, right?


As I mentioned with the post, $65K paid in 3 annual installments. I know Army does not pay current Captains, only new accessions. Air Force will pay new accessions as well as Captains commissioned in 2007-present.

BrutusBuckeye
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Re: Military Law

Postby BrutusBuckeye » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:30 pm

First off, this thread is GREAT. Thanks to everyone who has offered help. I am very interested in being a JAG, ideally in the AF, but Navy and Army are appealing to me as well. I did have a few questions.

1) I have been looking into the OYCP. One person said it is much easier to get into AF JAG through OYCP, while another person said only 5 people in the country got OYCP when he was in it. So is it easier or harder to get than DAP, or is this just speculation on the part of everyone?

2) In terms of re-applying after not getting selected and having to go before multiple boards, I'm wondering how the re-application process works. Do you have to get new recommendations/writing sample/statement/etc, or can you just send in basically the same stuff. Also, do you have to re-interview with the SJA, or does the SJA interview count for a period of time before you can have another SJA interview? My grades are not up to the level of the JAGs on this site (below the median at a mid-T1), so I'm expecting to go before more than one board and want to present an image each time that I want it even more than it appeared the last board.

3) If selected, when do you get tested on PT requirements?

Thank you all so much!

wesleybs
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Re: Military Law

Postby wesleybs » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:40 pm

Buckeye: I can answer 1 from what an AF JAG rep said at our school. He said the chances of getting in through OYCP are significantly greater than the chances of getting in through the Direct Appointment. I believe someone threw out a number of around 50% v. 8% or something of that significance. (those numbers are straight from my memory of what someone else wrote on some forum, so don't bank on them). I'm guessing the PT requirements part varies from service to service. I know for the Navy it is one of the steps towards getting the commission. I don't know when you do the PT for Air Force, but I was thinking that it was not until COT in the summer (just an assumption).

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:27 pm

BrutusBuckeye wrote:First off, this thread is GREAT. Thanks to everyone who has offered help. I am very interested in being a JAG, ideally in the AF, but Navy and Army are appealing to me as well. I did have a few questions.

1) I have been looking into the OYCP. One person said it is much easier to get into AF JAG through OYCP, while another person said only 5 people in the country got OYCP when he was in it. So is it easier or harder to get than DAP, or is this just speculation on the part of everyone?

2) In terms of re-applying after not getting selected and having to go before multiple boards, I'm wondering how the re-application process works. Do you have to get new recommendations/writing sample/statement/etc, or can you just send in basically the same stuff. Also, do you have to re-interview with the SJA, or does the SJA interview count for a period of time before you can have another SJA interview? My grades are not up to the level of the JAGs on this site (below the median at a mid-T1), so I'm expecting to go before more than one board and want to present an image each time that I want it even more than it appeared the last board.

3) If selected, when do you get tested on PT requirements?

Thank you all so much!


1. OYCP is easier to get into compared to DAP. I'm not sure if it is 50% acceptance but it is far more forgiving than the roughly 5% rates DAP boards are at now. JAX does not release GLP/OYCP stats so I cannot tell you for sure how competitive it has been.

2. Reapplication is pretty much automatic the first time. You do not need to reinterviewfor your second board. For your third board, you have to formally reapply (with interview) with an SJA. It can be with the same SJA or you can go to a new base.

3. You will get PT tested twice a year. When those times are will depend on your unit. My unit's annual tests will be March and September. My office also does quarterly PT assessments, so we are actually testing 6 times a year, though only the two official ones count.

Edit: I just reread your question. Your first PT test will be in the first couple days of COT and you will test again before you graduate. PT tests do not play a part in your selection though if you hope to be picked up, you better look fit in a suit.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:55 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
BHL wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
BHL wrote:PB, is there a link to the new loan repayment program? In a quick google search, I didn't find anything outside of a few articles on Army's version.


Negative. As I mentioned in the post, it is still unofficial, in the sense that HQ USAF or TJAG has not unveiled it. That said, it successfully navigated all the bureaucratic channels and was passed on to my leadership, from their leadership, as a done deal.

As soon as I get something I am able to pass on for public consumption, I will.

It's supposed to be identical to the Army program, right?


As I mentioned with the post, $65K paid in 3 annual installments. I know Army does not pay current Captains, only new accessions. Air Force will pay new accessions as well as Captains commissioned in 2007-present.


All the of the active duty JAGs received an email from TJAG on Tuesday confirming implementation of the program. No new details to note but it is nice to have confirmation from Lt Gen Rives himself.

BrutusBuckeye
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Re: Military Law

Postby BrutusBuckeye » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:26 pm

The gender % breakdown has been discussed in this thread, but I was wondering what the racial/ethnic diversity was like. I imagine its mostly Caucasians, but I'm particularly interested in how many JAGs are 1) Asian 2) East Indian. Do you think a remember of a racial group that isn't particularly well represented in the JAG Corp would receive a boost in an affirmative action-esque way in order to increase overall diversity? I know the Navy specifically talks about its commitment to diversity, although they seem to be quite diverse (large Filipino population in the Navy, among others).

Kalas
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kalas » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:59 am

If its quota based, then it would depend on how many slots are open to minorities and how many other minorities are applying that you would be competing against.

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coolio
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Re: Military Law

Postby coolio » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:32 pm

Sorry if this has been asked already, but I'm wondering about how physical fitness is taken into account. I am a 1L at a T-25 who is very much interested in becoming a Navy JAG, but I've currently got some fat around the waist that might put me above the 22-23% body fat standard. I'm confident I can get rid of this, but if I were to interview for the summer internship this year, how heavily would this factor weigh against me (no pun intended)? I am concerned that others on interview may look more like a JAG than I do, I guess. Do you have any thoughts?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:05 pm

BrutusBuckeye wrote:The gender % breakdown has been discussed in this thread, but I was wondering what the racial/ethnic diversity was like. I imagine its mostly Caucasians, but I'm particularly interested in how many JAGs are 1) Asian 2) East Indian. Do you think a remember of a racial group that isn't particularly well represented in the JAG Corp would receive a boost in an affirmative action-esque way in order to increase overall diversity? I know the Navy specifically talks about its commitment to diversity, although they seem to be quite diverse (large Filipino population in the Navy, among others).


I head up JAG recruiting for my base and I have never heard of any "pro minority" program for USAF. Maybe it is something the accession boards consider under the table but I really think it is a matter of merit. With selection rates in the 5%-7% neighborhood, the boards can afford to be selecting the best applicants possible, regardless of race.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:11 pm

coolio wrote:Sorry if this has been asked already, but I'm wondering about how physical fitness is taken into account. I am a 1L at a T-25 who is very much interested in becoming a Navy JAG, but I've currently got some fat around the waist that might put me above the 22-23% body fat standard. I'm confident I can get rid of this, but if I were to interview for the summer internship this year, how heavily would this factor weigh against me (no pun intended)? I am concerned that others on interview may look more like a JAG than I do, I guess. Do you have any thoughts?


I have no idea how Navy JAG operates but when it comes to Direct Appointees for the Air Force, it absolutely matters. If an applicant looks fat for his/her interview or their picture in the application, it can be a big ding against their chances for selection.

That said, that is for direct appointment - applicants interviewing to become officers, so fitness has a very direct connection. Interns are "just" civilian law students, so it matters less. The PT standards have no impact in regard to selection for USAF JAG interns.

Maybe some of the Navy guys on this thread can throw their two cents in.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:34 pm

Same for Navy - probably doesn't matter much for an internship, but it absolutely matters for officer selection.

ArmyVet07
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Re: Military Law

Postby ArmyVet07 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:18 am

I had to shed a few pounds before enlisting and found that running was helpful for losing weight. Just a suggestion.

On an unrelated matter, I have seen the low selection rated and was wondering if anyone knew the numbers for prior service applicants.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:55 pm

ArmyVet07 wrote: On an unrelated matter, I have seen the low selection rated and was wondering if anyone knew the numbers for prior service applicants.


The short answer to this is that it helps but it really depends on a variety of other factors. Obviously an honorable discharge is a must and generally so are firewall (or close to it) 5 EPRs/OPRs. If you have a great service record I think it can be a huge asset to your application. We have several prior enlisted and two officers from differeent career fields in my office and they are simply outstanding. That said, some of the biggest duds I have seen in terms of direct appointee applicants have been priors.

If you have a competitive application plus outstanding prior service, you will no doubt get a good boost compared to your chances as a pure civilian. That said, it is still a rocky road. One of my close USAF JAG friend of mine was prior enlisted USMC infantry and he was rejected by his first two boards. This was also before the economy took a shit and the application numbers spiked.

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DMV Messiah
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Re: Military Law

Postby DMV Messiah » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:12 pm

Great thread. Thanks everyone for the wealth of information.

Quick question ...

What is the day to day work like for a JAG? Do most JAGs end up dealing with minor offenses? Does the opportunity to work significant, complex cases only come along for a lucky few? It seems like JAG offers a great quality of life (compared to something like Big Law), but do you feel that you are fully utilizing the skills you picked up in LS (reading, writing, arguing, etc...).

Thanks :)

CyLaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby CyLaw » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:15 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:


<rant>
Grr. Don't even get me started on Firewall EPRs. I got firewall EPRs while I was in, but I think it was the most disappointing thing about my performance reports. How can everyone in the unit be rated as "Exceptional / At the top of their field". I remember questioning this practice during ALS, and they did bring up a valid point that if you don't give your subordinates 5 ratings, then it really hurts them for promotion since everyone one else is during the all 5's thing, but really, if you are a average performer for the unit I don't think you should get a 5. In my unit you had to have hard evidence justification to give a 4 to someone, and they had to have actual disciplinary issues (such as Article 15's) for a 2 or 3. How is getting a Article 15 "conforms to standards"? I hope the system has gotten better now, but a couple of years ago, at least in my intel unit it was over inflated and gave no real data on the value of the Airman.
</rant>

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:58 pm

DMV Messiah wrote:Great thread. Thanks everyone for the wealth of information.

Quick question ...

What is the day to day work like for a JAG? Do most JAGs end up dealing with minor offenses? Does the opportunity to work significant, complex cases only come along for a lucky few? It seems like JAG offers a great quality of life (compared to something like Big Law), but do you feel that you are fully utilizing the skills you picked up in LS (reading, writing, arguing, etc...).

Thanks :)


My day-to-day varies so much that I cannot begin to cover it in a single post. I handle both civil and criminal issues every day with all the shades those matters come in. Today I will write wills for deploying Airmen, write a detailed advisory memorandum regarding settlement of a $200,000+ claim asserted by the government, finish writing my sentencing argument for a court martial next week, and put out the dozen "quick question" fires that always come up throughout the day. I'll be in Federal Magistrate Court tomorrow dealing with the on base civilian law breakers.

When you factor in legal assistance, I struggle to find an area of the law that I don't have to deal with at least once a week. I even had a Rule Against Perpetities issue come up a few weeks ago in a legal assistance appointment. That said, we obviously do not do any complex transactional work that a law firm might.

In terms of the high level stuff, it can all depend. Sometimes we will remain the primary on the issue with support from more senior JAGs. Other times we have to forward the case to higher headquarters.

I absolutely love the Air Force and the variety of work I engage in.

BrutusBuckeye
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Re: Military Law

Postby BrutusBuckeye » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:45 pm

A few more questions:

1) How far in advance should we call the SJA to set up an interview?

2) What is racial diversity like among JAG? Are Blacks/Latinos/Asian/East Indians well represented?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:58 am

BrutusBuckeye wrote:A few more questions:

1) How far in advance should we call the SJA to set up an interview?

2) What is racial diversity like among JAG? Are Blacks/Latinos/Asian/East Indians well represented?


1. You must interview no later than the 15th of the month prior to the month of the board. For example, Jan 15 for the Feb board. The more time you give, the less rushed it will be for that office to assemble your package, for the SJA to write his/her report, etc. It takes a considerable amount of man-hours to get your package to JAX after you interview.

2. I cannot really comment on that. I would call JAX. The heading of recruiting is Capt Afsana Ahmed, perhaps an indication of the racial diversity you seem interested in.

amped
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Re: Military Law

Postby amped » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:31 pm

Anyone heard whether they've been accepted or denied for the AF or Army summer programs?

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:24 am

CyLaw wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:


<rant>
Grr. Don't even get me started on Firewall EPRs. I got firewall EPRs while I was in, but I think it was the most disappointing thing about my performance reports. How can everyone in the unit be rated as "Exceptional / At the top of their field". I remember questioning this practice during ALS, and they did bring up a valid point that if you don't give your subordinates 5 ratings, then it really hurts them for promotion since everyone one else is during the all 5's thing, but really, if you are a average performer for the unit I don't think you should get a 5. In my unit you had to have hard evidence justification to give a 4 to someone, and they had to have actual disciplinary issues (such as Article 15's) for a 2 or 3. How is getting a Article 15 "conforms to standards"? I hope the system has gotten better now, but a couple of years ago, at least in my intel unit it was over inflated and gave no real data on the value of the Airman.
</rant>

Navy went to a forced distribution system over 10 years ago for promotion recommendation. And selection boards to E-7 and all promotion boards E-7 and above see the reporting senior's grade point average-- both for the report period and cumulative over his/her career (by paygrade). Really helped identify who the keepers were and who the others were. Doesn't mean that there aren't ways to game the system (e.g., after I announced my intention to retire, guess who the cannon fodder was to give a little GPA spread for the CO's average?) but I agree, it's much better than the "Firewall 5s". (That said, though, you can't kill a good sailor/soldier/airman/Marine based on a personal principal.

FYI for anyone out there considering Berkeley, they are seriously considering Yellow Ribbon. I'm helping them collect data to assess the financial impact. It's far from a done deal, but at least they are doing their due diligence.




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