Military Law

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ss3db1
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Re: Military Law

Postby ss3db1 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:15 pm

I would like to extend my thanks to all the previous posters on this board, as I too was recently selected for the Air Force GLP. The information contained in these posts was tremendously helpful and hopefully I will be able to pass on some of my own experiences in the years to come.

edja0603
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Re: Military Law

Postby edja0603 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:09 pm

JAG Hopeful wrote:So, I’ve basically heard back that I’m permanently disqualified. My recruiter has me doing some last-ditch Hail Mary approaches, but he’s not hopeful, and now I have to be realistic. I’ve been pursuing this since undergrad, so this is rather crushing. But if it’s not in the cards, that’s that.


I'm really sorry. I hope you can still find a way to serve.

mike0331
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Re: Military Law

Postby mike0331 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:31 pm

JAG Hopeful wrote:So, I’ve basically heard back that I’m permanently disqualified. My recruiter has me doing some last-ditch Hail Mary approaches, but he’s not hopeful, and now I have to be realistic. I’ve been pursuing this since undergrad, so this is rather crushing. But if it’s not in the cards, that’s that.

That said, I still want to serve, and particularly do so in the Navy. Does anyone have any knowledge (other than general from their website) about work in the Office of the General Counsel of the Navy, or working as a civilian in the Navy JAG? I’m hoping it’s not impossible to get hired right out of law school; they do have GS-11 positions open for recent grads. Anyone know about what the work looks like on the day-to-day level?


Medically PDQ? You can essentially appeal anything up to BUMED, at least thats what I had to do when I joined the USMC out of highschool.

Mike

uvandy
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Re: Military Law

Postby uvandy » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:01 pm

AF just posted a paid internship for 1L/2L with a short suspense date of this Thursday:

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search?Keyword=Air+Force+Law+Clerk&Location=&search=Search&AutoCompleteSelected=False

Congrats to all the GLP selectees! No surprise I got dinged but there's always next year.

Ohioan
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Re: Military Law

Postby Ohioan » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:32 pm

I was just selected for the OYCP last week as well. There is a lot of info on getting into the program in this forum but not a lot about actually completing it. I have a few questions for anyone who has been in the program before.

Do the ROTC classes show up on your transcript? Since they are undergrad level I would not expect to get any credit for them.

Does the Air Force send all the JAG ROTC selects to the same month of Field Training? An earlier poster made it sound as if he went through FT with four other JAG OYCP selects.

Any other info or experiences of law students in the AF ROTC programs would be welcome.

Jules07
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Re: Military Law

Postby Jules07 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:53 pm

Ohioan wrote:Do the ROTC classes show up on your transcript? Since they are undergrad level I would not expect to get any credit for them.

Does the Air Force send all the JAG ROTC selects to the same month of Field Training? An earlier poster made it sound as if he went through FT with four other JAG OYCP selects.


The ROTC classes do not show up on your transcript. You're right, you won't get credit for them, and they won't count toward your GPA.

Last year was the first year they had a specific "JAG" max, and this year they do as well. You're encouraged to go to that one, but I think if you have a good reason (an internship, etc) to go to another max I think they'll let you. I went to max 1 so I could do my internship with the Navy right after, even though max 3 was the "JAG" max.

Also, congratulations!

illiniguy1551
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Re: Military Law

Postby illiniguy1551 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:18 pm

uvandy wrote:AF just posted a paid internship for 1L/2L with a short suspense date of this Thursday:

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search?Keyword=Air+Force+Law+Clerk&Location=&search=Search&AutoCompleteSelected=False

Congrats to all the GLP selectees! No surprise I got dinged but there's always next year.


Is this the same thing as the regular JAG internships? I happened to see it and applied, but it didn't require letters of recommendation like I thought all of the JAG internships do. Also, anyone know when one should typically hear back from a short posting such as this?

uvandy
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Re: Military Law

Postby uvandy » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:35 pm

Each branch has different requirements. The AF internship did not require LORs. It was a simple process. Just a few standard docs and a multiple-choice questionnaire. Ironically, it was alot easier than the unpaid externship but will be much more competitive. I believe notifications for both will be later this month.

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MarkfromWI
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Re: Military Law

Postby MarkfromWI » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:15 am

Jules07 wrote:
Ohioan wrote:Do the ROTC classes show up on your transcript? Since they are undergrad level I would not expect to get any credit for them.

Does the Air Force send all the JAG ROTC selects to the same month of Field Training? An earlier poster made it sound as if he went through FT with four other JAG OYCP selects.


The ROTC classes do not show up on your transcript. You're right, you won't get credit for them, and they won't count toward your GPA.


I guess it depends on the school, but most law schools will allow you to take a few credits through the undergrad (usually around 6 or so) and count it toward your JD. I agree that they won't count towards your GPA, but they generally will count toward your total credits required for graduation so in that sense you do get credit for them. Anything over the 6 credits, though, would obviously be uncredited.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:50 am

MarkfromWI wrote:
Jules07 wrote:
Ohioan wrote:Do the ROTC classes show up on your transcript? Since they are undergrad level I would not expect to get any credit for them.

Does the Air Force send all the JAG ROTC selects to the same month of Field Training? An earlier poster made it sound as if he went through FT with four other JAG OYCP selects.


The ROTC classes do not show up on your transcript. You're right, you won't get credit for them, and they won't count toward your GPA.


I guess it depends on the school, but most law schools will allow you to take a few credits through the undergrad (usually around 6 or so) and count it toward your JD. I agree that they won't count towards your GPA, but they generally will count toward your total credits required for graduation so in that sense you do get credit for them. Anything over the 6 credits, though, would obviously be uncredited.


Some schools do not because they're not considered graduate level courses.

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skylaws
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Re: Military Law

Postby skylaws » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:03 am

Maybe everyone else knew this already and its buried in this thread somewhere, but I didn't know ahead of time, so thought I'd post for future GLP / OYCP selectees: If you get picked for one of these programs and go to summer Field Training via your AFROTC detachment, you do not do COT after graduation and the bar. Yay!

jagnut
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Re: Military Law

Postby jagnut » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:03 am

skylaws wrote:Maybe everyone else knew this already and its buried in this thread somewhere, but I didn't know ahead of time, so thought I'd post for future GLP / OYCP selectees: If you get picked for one of these programs and go to summer Field Training via your AFROTC detachment, you do not do COT after graduation and the bar. Yay!


There are certainly trade-offs with this. Instead of going through COT with doctors and lawyers, we will be with mostly 20 year olds gunning for pilot positions. Their performance at field training has a direct effect on their future career opportunities, so while both are intended to satisfy the "boot camp" element for their respective officer entry points, SFT will be inherently more difficult in a variety of ways. Trying to memorize that field training manual on such short notice will be a pain in the ass, and the answers will be tough to recall when getting yelled at after using your reporting statement wrong haha. It's also unpaid, as of last year, which is crazy to me. But it will be nice, however, for our initial training after law school to be a month shorter, even if we'll have to catch up with socializing.

There is a previous post talking about the pros and cons of each entry point if you look for it. For me, I think keeping the right perspective will be seriously valuable for mental health throughout the 4 weeks this summer. My biggest obstacle right now is trying to figure out how to reconcile field training with other summer legal opportunities. Won't be easy.

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skylaws
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Re: Military Law

Postby skylaws » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:00 pm

jagnut wrote:
skylaws wrote:Maybe everyone else knew this already and its buried in this thread somewhere, but I didn't know ahead of time, so thought I'd post for future GLP / OYCP selectees: If you get picked for one of these programs and go to summer Field Training via your AFROTC detachment, you do not do COT after graduation and the bar. Yay!


There are certainly trade-offs with this. Instead of going through COT with doctors and lawyers, we will be with mostly 20 year olds gunning for pilot positions. Their performance at field training has a direct effect on their future career opportunities, so while both are intended to satisfy the "boot camp" element for their respective officer entry points, SFT will be inherently more difficult in a variety of ways. Trying to memorize that field training manual on such short notice will be a pain in the ass, and the answers will be tough to recall when getting yelled at after using your reporting statement wrong haha. It's also unpaid, as of last year, which is crazy to me. But it will be nice, however, for our initial training after law school to be a month shorter, even if we'll have to catch up with socializing.

There is a previous post talking about the pros and cons of each entry point if you look for it. For me, I think keeping the right perspective will be seriously valuable for mental health throughout the 4 weeks this summer. My biggest obstacle right now is trying to figure out how to reconcile field training with other summer legal opportunities. Won't be easy.


To be clear, the 'yay' was because up until this point I thought we had to do both. I am definitely by no means under the impression that we're going to get an easier experience. Its obviously going to be hard and stressful, and learning everything we need to know beforehand will be a serious challenge. The upside, I think, is that by the time we hit JASOC and our first assignments we'll have had at least a full year of time with the AFROTC detachment, so the post-grad transition into Air Force life might be a little less confusing than it otherwise could be.

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AT9
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Re: Military Law

Postby AT9 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:01 pm

(warning: naive 1L questions ahead)

How does one interested in JAG balance the fact that many 2L SAs are filled long before JAG internship/GLP decisions come along?

For instance, if I'm lucky enough to get a SA offer through OCI in August/September for 2L summer, it's not like they'll let me sit around until February/March or later waiting on JAG, right? Are you essentially forced to pick JAG-gunning over other career options if you want JAG the most? I even ran into that this year...I really wanted the AF JAG internship, but was offered other internship positions weeks in advance of the AF decisions, which was frustrating since I didn't want to pass up an actual offer for the possibility of a JAG offer. Just seems like poor strategy when many of the students who would potentially be competitive are already off the table. Or is it just that most JAG-interested students aren't interested in traditional SA/firm work?

Thanks for any input.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:17 pm

AT9 wrote:(warning: naive 1L questions ahead)

How does one interested in JAG balance the fact that many 2L SAs are filled long before JAG internship/GLP decisions come along?

For instance, if I'm lucky enough to get a SA offer through OCI in August/September for 2L summer, it's not like they'll let me sit around until February/March or later waiting on JAG, right? Are you essentially forced to pick JAG-gunning over other career options if you want JAG the most? I even ran into that this year...I really wanted the AF JAG internship, but was offered other internship positions weeks in advance of the AF decisions, which was frustrating since I didn't want to pass up an actual offer for the possibility of a JAG offer. Just seems like poor strategy when many of the students who would potentially be competitive are already off the table. Or is it just that most JAG-interested students aren't interested in traditional SA/firm work?

Thanks for any input.

Unfortunately, I think you described the situation well. There's always the option to back out on the SA gig, but that's quite a bet. I wouldn't worry greatly about it. While an internship can be very helpful, it certainly isn't necessary. Getting real legal work over the summer is also very helpful in the application process.

I would assume the timing of the internship applications/decisions is tied to funding timing and other seemingly unrelated timelines. I don't think they try to push it back as late as they do.

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AT9
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Re: Military Law

Postby AT9 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:01 am

Well that's a bummer.

What about direct appointment? Let's say you're offered a full-time firm position following a 2L SA, it seems like it would be a really bad idea to back-out of an accepted full-time offer anywhere.

edja0603
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Re: Military Law

Postby edja0603 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:35 am

AT9 wrote:Well that's a bummer.

What about direct appointment? Let's say you're offered a full-time firm position following a 2L SA, it seems like it would be a really bad idea to back-out of an accepted full-time offer anywhere.


Assuming you get chosen for a DA board after the full-time firm offer (say December board pick-up) you don't really have to worry too much about burning bridges once you clear MEPS and get your commission. You have a job for four years, and chances are that first gig won't be available after the four years anyway. I think if you want to do JAG, you pursue that, and have a backup plan just in case it won't work (cause it's stupidly competitive to get in). And if you are chosen, just tell that employer that you are going a different route. You don't owe them anything.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:32 pm

Anyone have any thoughts about letters of recommendation for accessions packets? Thinking specifically about letters from law school professors. I have a letter from my old battalion commander from Iraq, and I'll get one from my summer job boss, but how exactly do people get letters from 1L professors where the class is huge? There's not a hell of a lot they can say besides, "Yeah, he was in my class, occasionally raised his hand and answered questions, and got a good grade on the final. The end."

jagnut
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Re: Military Law

Postby jagnut » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:04 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:Anyone have any thoughts about letters of recommendation for accessions packets? Thinking specifically about letters from law school professors. I have a letter from my old battalion commander from Iraq, and I'll get one from my summer job boss, but how exactly do people get letters from 1L professors where the class is huge? There's not a hell of a lot they can say besides, "Yeah, he was in my class, occasionally raised his hand and answered questions, and got a good grade on the final. The end."


Something that has worked for me for both law school LoRs and a JAG LoR- since I also had large classes- I asked the professor for an opportunity to interview for a letter of recommendation rather than simply asking for a letter. They understand people need them and I think they generally respect that approach. Then at the interview, you can bring your resume and talk more about yourself so they can get a better sense of what to put in the letter.

Hope that helps.

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MarkfromWI
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Re: Military Law

Postby MarkfromWI » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:55 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:Anyone have any thoughts about letters of recommendation for accessions packets? Thinking specifically about letters from law school professors. I have a letter from my old battalion commander from Iraq, and I'll get one from my summer job boss, but how exactly do people get letters from 1L professors where the class is huge? There's not a hell of a lot they can say besides, "Yeah, he was in my class, occasionally raised his hand and answered questions, and got a good grade on the final. The end."


If you've got a couple of very solid letters from other people, I don't think the letters from professors are all that crucial. Your interview and credentials (including prior service) are going to carry a shit-ton more weigh than the letters of recommendation, and if the two letters from work and your battalion commander are decent to solid, the letter(s) from professors become just another box that you've checked.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:57 pm

MarkfromWI wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:Anyone have any thoughts about letters of recommendation for accessions packets? Thinking specifically about letters from law school professors. I have a letter from my old battalion commander from Iraq, and I'll get one from my summer job boss, but how exactly do people get letters from 1L professors where the class is huge? There's not a hell of a lot they can say besides, "Yeah, he was in my class, occasionally raised his hand and answered questions, and got a good grade on the final. The end."


If you've got a couple of very solid letters from other people, I don't think the letters from professors are all that crucial. Your interview and credentials (including prior service) are going to carry a shit-ton more weigh than the letters of recommendation, and if the two letters from work and your battalion commander are decent to solid, the letter(s) from professors become just another box that you've checked.


This is spot on.

edja0603
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Re: Military Law

Postby edja0603 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:46 pm

MarkfromWI wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:Anyone have any thoughts about letters of recommendation for accessions packets? Thinking specifically about letters from law school professors. I have a letter from my old battalion commander from Iraq, and I'll get one from my summer job boss, but how exactly do people get letters from 1L professors where the class is huge? There's not a hell of a lot they can say besides, "Yeah, he was in my class, occasionally raised his hand and answered questions, and got a good grade on the final. The end."


If you've got a couple of very solid letters from other people, I don't think the letters from professors are all that crucial. Your interview and credentials (including prior service) are going to carry a shit-ton more weigh than the letters of recommendation, and if the two letters from work and your battalion commander are decent to solid, the letter(s) from professors become just another box that you've checked.


Unless you really stand out in a class or have done any extra curricular activities with a professor. During my interview, the Col. discussed a LoR from a professor I was on the Honor Council with. We had to judge a case, and the professor wrote nice things about the experience. So if you've done any type of outside of class thing that could make you stand out, it may be worth pursuing that letter.

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MarkfromWI
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Re: Military Law

Postby MarkfromWI » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:02 pm

edja0603 wrote: Unless you really stand out in a class or have done any extra curricular activities with a professor. During my interview, the Col. discussed a LoR from a professor I was on the Honor Council with. We had to judge a case, and the professor wrote nice things about the experience. So if you've done any type of outside of class thing that could make you stand out, it may be worth pursuing that letter.


I agree that if you have any sort of significant contact with a professor that a letter from them becomes worth pursuing, but that's not the situation Spanish asked about or that I responded to.

TheSpanishMain wrote:Anyone have any thoughts about letters of recommendation for accessions packets? Thinking specifically about letters from law school professors. I have a letter from my old battalion commander from Iraq, and I'll get one from my summer job boss, but how exactly do people get letters from 1L professors where the class is huge? There's not a hell of a lot they can say besides, "Yeah, he was in my class, occasionally raised his hand and answered questions, and got a good grade on the final. The end."

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:50 pm

Appreciate the input all.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law

Postby TheSpanishMain » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:41 am

AT9 wrote:(warning: naive 1L questions ahead)

How does one interested in JAG balance the fact that many 2L SAs are filled long before JAG internship/GLP decisions come along?

For instance, if I'm lucky enough to get a SA offer through OCI in August/September for 2L summer, it's not like they'll let me sit around until February/March or later waiting on JAG, right? Are you essentially forced to pick JAG-gunning over other career options if you want JAG the most? I even ran into that this year...I really wanted the AF JAG internship, but was offered other internship positions weeks in advance of the AF decisions, which was frustrating since I didn't want to pass up an actual offer for the possibility of a JAG offer. Just seems like poor strategy when many of the students who would potentially be competitive are already off the table. Or is it just that most JAG-interested students aren't interested in traditional SA/firm work?

Thanks for any input.


I think the best move if you want to keep both options open is do a JAG internship 1L summer so you can do a 2L SA




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