Military Law

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gtowns
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Re: Military Law

Postby gtowns » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:14 pm

I am interested in commissioning with the Air Force and have read through most of this thread. It seems that most people on here are interested in the MJ aspect of the JAG Corps. I, however, am more interested in some of the other practice areas listed on the Air Force's website (government procurement, cyber law, air and space law). Are there real opportunities to practice in these areas, or are they just listed on the website as a recruitment tool?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:05 pm

gtowns wrote:I am interested in commissioning with the Air Force and have read through most of this thread. It seems that most people on here are interested in the MJ aspect of the JAG Corps. I, however, am more interested in some of the other practice areas listed on the Air Force's website (government procurement, cyber law, air and space law). Are there real opportunities to practice in these areas, or are they just listed on the website as a recruitment tool?


There are indeed very real opportunities to specialize (for a time) in areas outside of military justice/criminal law. Within the Air Force Legal Operations Agency there tons of opportunities within procurement/government contracting/acquisitions, environmental, labor, commercial and civil litigation, etc. The Jones Building at Joint Base Andrews has dozens of JAGs practicing in all these areas, to say nothing of the folks deployed, in Field Support Centers, and getting LLMs.

Much like the specialty MJ positions (ADC, STC, etc) most JAGs will not get the opportunity to dive into these until their third assignment.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:04 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
gtowns wrote:I am interested in commissioning with the Air Force and have read through most of this thread. It seems that most people on here are interested in the MJ aspect of the JAG Corps. I, however, am more interested in some of the other practice areas listed on the Air Force's website (government procurement, cyber law, air and space law). Are there real opportunities to practice in these areas, or are they just listed on the website as a recruitment tool?


There are indeed very real opportunities to specialize (for a time) in areas outside of military justice/criminal law. Within the Air Force Legal Operations Agency there tons of opportunities within procurement/government contracting/acquisitions, environmental, labor, commercial and civil litigation, etc. The Jones Building at Joint Base Andrews has dozens of JAGs practicing in all these areas, to say nothing of the folks deployed, in Field Support Centers, and getting LLMs.

Much like the specialty MJ positions (ADC, STC, etc) most JAGs will not get the opportunity to dive into these until their third assignment.



Is the third assignment after your initial four year commitment?

Unrelated by how important is it to max out your LOR? Is it really a big deal if I only have 3 or so? It just seems kind of odd for that to matter to me but I'm curious.

kwwill3
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Re: Military Law

Postby kwwill3 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:26 pm

2L and very interested in Navy JAG. On paper I would be a solid candidate: top 10%, journal, extensive public service work after college. Worried about the pft test. When do JAG candidates have to take the physical fitness test? Is it after you are professionally recommended or some other time?

QueueToo
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Re: Military Law

Postby QueueToo » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:02 am

kwwill3 wrote:2L and very interested in Navy JAG. On paper I would be a solid candidate: top 10%, journal, extensive public service work after college. Worried about the pft test. When do JAG candidates have to take the physical fitness test? Is it after you are professionally recommended or some other time?


Which one? You do the PFT (running, situps and pushups) for the first time at Officer Development School which is months after the professional recommendation.

You would go through a medical exam (MEPS) including a neuro-skeletal exam which involves making sure you're able to move your joints/self like you should. At the same exam they weigh you and – if you're over the maximum weight for your height – measure you with a tape and compare your neck and waist measurements to see what your body fat composition is. You must receive medical clearance for a professional recommendation to turn into a commission.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:37 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
gtowns wrote:I am interested in commissioning with the Air Force and have read through most of this thread. It seems that most people on here are interested in the MJ aspect of the JAG Corps. I, however, am more interested in some of the other practice areas listed on the Air Force's website (government procurement, cyber law, air and space law). Are there real opportunities to practice in these areas, or are they just listed on the website as a recruitment tool?


There are indeed very real opportunities to specialize (for a time) in areas outside of military justice/criminal law. Within the Air Force Legal Operations Agency there tons of opportunities within procurement/government contracting/acquisitions, environmental, labor, commercial and civil litigation, etc. The Jones Building at Joint Base Andrews has dozens of JAGs practicing in all these areas, to say nothing of the folks deployed, in Field Support Centers, and getting LLMs.

Much like the specialty MJ positions (ADC, STC, etc) most JAGs will not get the opportunity to dive into these until their third assignment.



Is the third assignment after your initial four year commitment?

Unrelated by how important is it to max out your LOR? Is it really a big deal if I only have 3 or so? It just seems kind of odd for that to matter to me but I'm curious.


Yes - third assignment. That is not always after the four year commitment - you can become an ADC after your first assignment or a year into your second for example. I was selected as an ADC at year three. The standard model, however, is Base Legal X for two years, Base Legal Y for two years.

I have always heard you want to max out those LORs, 5/5. That said, I have not heard it from anywhere official. It does make sense to me though in the sense of the stupid and arbitrary things AF selection board and promotion boards decide are important. Don't leave anything to chance - get two more letters, even if they are not perfect.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:15 am

RE: LORs

People get accepted with fewer than 5 LORs. With the selection rate being below 10%, though, you want to do everything you can to make the cut. It's just another way to show how much you want the job and how you would be a good fit for the job. I wouldn't lose sleep over having fewer than 5 LORs, but I would also start trying to line up a total of 5 for the next board if you don't get in.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:00 pm

I've also heard that you want to max out the 5 letters if you can. The reviewers have minimal time to look at your file and so they usually just check to see how many you've got. Having said that, I know a few people who've been accepted to AF JAG who have failed to comply with explicit instructions like one guy who submitted a "full-body" photo that actually didn't show his feet...

fivesolas
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Re: Military Law

Postby fivesolas » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:41 am

Re: LORs

I can't really say how big of a deal it is to have 5, but I was recently accepted to the AF JAG DAP and only had 4. I was intentional about the 4 people I chose as they each highlighted a different aspect of my work/life/community involvement. Each recommender knew me well enough to write a good letter highlighting what needed to be highlighted and tying it to JAG. I went back and forth about getting a 5th letter, but ultimately decided that it would be redundant and probably wouldn't matter. Maybe I took a risk, I don't know.

Puttanesca
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Re: Military Law

Postby Puttanesca » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:58 am

fivesolas wrote:Re: LORs

I can't really say how big of a deal it is to have 5, but I was recently accepted to the AF JAG DAP and only had 4. I was intentional about the 4 people I chose as they each highlighted a different aspect of my work/life/community involvement. Each recommender knew me well enough to write a good letter highlighting what needed to be highlighted and tying it to JAG. I went back and forth about getting a 5th letter, but ultimately decided that it would be redundant and probably wouldn't matter. Maybe I took a risk, I don't know.


I also went back and forth about getting a 5th letter, and decided to get that 5th letter. I figured if the letter wasn't that good, I would just not submit it. It ended up being a really great letter, so I submitted it. Don't waste recommenders' time asking them to write a letter if you don't think it would be good enough to submit. If you're on the fence though, talk to them about writing a letter and see how they react. If they seem willing (and not hesitant), ask them to write the letter, and you can decide whether or not to submit it after you read it.

Also, an active duty AF JAG (w/close to 10 years in) told me it was better to have 5, but 4 wouldn't hurt.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:08 am

Thanks everyone for those exceptionally helpful responses.

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blink
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Re: Military Law

Postby blink » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:00 pm

Thoughts on increasing chances at JAG by joining ROTC as a 1L? I currently have that opportunity and I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger here. Anyone have any experience with this/know anyone who went this route? I did a forum search but didn't turn up much.

JAGGER
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Re: Military Law

Postby JAGGER » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:10 pm

kwwill3 wrote:2L and very interested in Navy JAG. On paper I would be a solid candidate: top 10%, journal, extensive public service work after college. Worried about the pft test. When do JAG candidates have to take the physical fitness test? Is it after you are professionally recommended or some other time?


Navy JAGs must take the Physical Fitness Assessment (PFA) twice each year. The PFA includes the Physical Readiness Test (PRT), which you are referring to. You will not take a PRT that actually counts until you arrive at your permanent duty station. The "PRT" you take at Officer Development School (ODS) is not entered into your official record, and you need not actually pass the PRT at ODS in order to complete ODS (Note: The only "sine qua non" at ODS is passing the swim test; you cannot graduate from ODS unless you pass the swim test. But the swim test is fairly easy and I even knew of people who could barely swim when entering ODS who passed it!)

Unless you are badly out of shape, you need not worry much about not passing the PRT. If you are curious about what you need to get on curl-ups (sit ups), push-ups, and the 1.5 mile run, check out this link: http://www.navy-prt.com/malestandard/malestandard.html

JAGGER
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Re: Military Law

Postby JAGGER » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:14 pm

blink wrote:Thoughts on increasing chances at JAG by joining ROTC as a 1L? I currently have that opportunity and I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger here. Anyone have any experience with this/know anyone who went this route? I did a forum search but didn't turn up much.


Do not do this if you are thinking about Navy JAG. There is actually no path to become a JAG through Navy ROTC.

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anon sequitur
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Re: Military Law

Postby anon sequitur » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:21 pm

JAGGER wrote:
Unless you are badly out of shape, you need not worry much about not passing the PRT. If you are curious about what you need to get on curl-ups (sit ups), push-ups, and the 1.5 mile run, check out this link: http://www.navy-prt.com/malestandard/malestandard.html


Do you need to look like you're in fairly good shape at the initial interview stage?

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twenty
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Re: Military Law

Postby twenty » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:23 pm

Navy doesn't commission JAGs through ROTC, Air Force's GLP/OYCP is almost as competitive as their direct commission option, so your only option left is Army. Army ROTC will take you, but they won't put you directly into JAG, you'd have to transfer over from a different group probably once you hit First Lieutenant.

I can see a benefit to doing it this way being that you could probably go for GFRD/SMP/DEDNG for the full ride scholarship 2L and 3L. The bigger question is, would you be happy being a non-JAG reserve officer for 4 years if that's how things ended up?

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MarkfromWI
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Re: Military Law

Postby MarkfromWI » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:26 pm

blink wrote:Thoughts on increasing chances at JAG by joining ROTC as a 1L? I currently have that opportunity and I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger here. Anyone have any experience with this/know anyone who went this route? I did a forum search but didn't turn up much.


I don't think that for JAG you can just "have the opportunity" to join ROTC as a 1L. At least with the AF, they do have the GLP and OYCP, but both of those have to be interviewed for and then selected. Selection doesn't happen until around February/March, IIRC. So basically, be very careful and make sure you know exactly what you're signing up for...

BamaNug
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Re: Military Law

Postby BamaNug » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:05 am

Hello all. I'm sure it's an incredibly vague question, but inquiring about the chances as a 27 year old with 2+ years experience at a large law firm. Asking specifically about Navy JAG, but any input on the other branches would be much appreciated.

Some info:
-bottom law school, right around 110-120. I guess the 2nd best in Alabama?
-Top 5%, 3.8, law review and editorial board of the same
-Worked for 2+ years at one of the biggest litigation firms in Alabama (not big law, but big for Alabama I guess?). In court a lot, but no trial experience. Mainly behind a desk
-Former college football player (safety), and still in very good shape. Currently training for half marathon
-Grandfather was in Dday and stormed Normandy

Just interested in any general thoughts on my chances. Will happily clarify anything,

QueueToo
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Re: Military Law

Postby QueueToo » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:16 am

anon sequitur wrote:
JAGGER wrote:
Unless you are badly out of shape, you need not worry much about not passing the PRT. If you are curious about what you need to get on curl-ups (sit ups), push-ups, and the 1.5 mile run, check out this link: http://www.navy-prt.com/malestandard/malestandard.html


Do you need to look like you're in fairly good shape at the initial interview stage?


They want a full-length photograph to go with your application. I don't know that "at the interview" matters as much as the photo. Candidly, they will want someone who looks good in a uniform (why else ask for the photo?) so it matters somewhat. Other than that, you're going to be a JA not a member of SEAL Team Six. No one is expecting a quarterback physique but also don't look like you wouldn't pass body composition standards.

Puttanesca
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Re: Military Law

Postby Puttanesca » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:47 am

BamaNug wrote:Hello all. I'm sure it's an incredibly vague question, but inquiring about the chances as a 27 year old with 2+ years experience at a large law firm. Asking specifically about Navy JAG, but any input on the other branches would be much appreciated.

Some info:
-bottom law school, right around 110-120. I guess the 2nd best in Alabama?
-Top 5%, 3.8, law review and editorial board of the same
-Worked for 2+ years at one of the biggest litigation firms in Alabama (not big law, but big for Alabama I guess?). In court a lot, but no trial experience. Mainly behind a desk
-Former college football player (safety), and still in very good shape. Currently training for half marathon
-Grandfather was in Dday and stormed Normandy

Just interested in any general thoughts on my chances. Will happily clarify anything,


I think Navy is going to be the most difficult. They take only about 5 attorneys through Direct Appointment each year. From my understanding, most of the Navy JAG's are from the Student Program.

You seem like a good candidate for JAG in general though, but selection is such a black box it is difficult to know what your chances are. The college athlete part, your grades, and your litigation related experience will be looked upon very favorably. Do you have any public service or volunteer work?

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BruceWayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:53 am

The Navy only takes 5 a year? When did that happen? I thought they had a DAP program similar to the AF that took in far fewer attorneys but still at least something far greater than single digits.

FYI I know someone who received Navy JAG last year (during law school) and frankly they were in average shape at best. However, they had a very prestigious resume and strong grades. They just weren't fat or anything like that; so I think what the poster said about just looking decent in uniform being enough for JAGs is correct.

Puttanesca
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Re: Military Law

Postby Puttanesca » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:02 am

BruceWayne wrote:The Navy only takes 5 a year? When did that happen? I thought they had a DAP program similar to the AF that took in far fewer attorneys but still at least something far greater than single digits.


http://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/career ... es_da.html

It says 4-5 per year for licensed attorneys.

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blink
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Re: Military Law

Postby blink » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:08 pm

twenty wrote:Navy doesn't commission JAGs through ROTC, Air Force's GLP/OYCP is almost as competitive as their direct commission option, so your only option left is Army. Army ROTC will take you, but they won't put you directly into JAG, you'd have to transfer over from a different group probably once you hit First Lieutenant.

I can see a benefit to doing it this way being that you could probably go for GFRD/SMP/DEDNG for the full ride scholarship 2L and 3L. The bigger question is, would you be happy being a non-JAG reserve officer for 4 years if that's how things ended up?


Can you elaborate? My opportunity is through Army, currently. Why won't they put me into JAG (if I got picked up)?

If I don't get JAG and become an officer in a different branch of the Army, will I be able to continue to apply to JAG and hope to transfer?

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blink
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Re: Military Law

Postby blink » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:11 pm

MarkfromWI wrote:
blink wrote:Thoughts on increasing chances at JAG by joining ROTC as a 1L? I currently have that opportunity and I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger here. Anyone have any experience with this/know anyone who went this route? I did a forum search but didn't turn up much.


I don't think that for JAG you can just "have the opportunity" to join ROTC as a 1L. At least with the AF, they do have the GLP and OYCP, but both of those have to be interviewed for and then selected. Selection doesn't happen until around February/March, IIRC. So basically, be very careful and make sure you know exactly what you're signing up for...


It's through the Army and I'm being careful. Just trying to determine if it's worth doing to give me a better shot at JAG. Thanks!

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BruceWayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:28 pm

Puttanesca wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:The Navy only takes 5 a year? When did that happen? I thought they had a DAP program similar to the AF that took in far fewer attorneys but still at least something far greater than single digits.


http://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/career ... es_da.html

It says 4-5 per year for licensed attorneys.


Oh yeah I was getting it confused with their Student program.




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