Military Law

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the302
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:47 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby the302 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:57 pm

I'm considering law school with the ultimate goal of being an AF JAG. Does anyone know if the application rates have decreased at all? Or if acceptance rates have gone up? Everything I've read says the acceptance rate over the last few years was about 3%-5%, which is discouraging.

thebarcaneatme
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:34 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby thebarcaneatme » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:21 pm

the302 wrote:I'm considering law school with the ultimate goal of being an AF JAG. Does anyone know if the application rates have decreased at all? Or if acceptance rates have gone up? Everything I've read says the acceptance rate over the last few years was about 3%-5%, which is discouraging.

Most those who apply were probably just applying across the board. Most disquals likely are due to not being able to be a cook even due to being fat or on crazy pills

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:33 pm

thebarcaneatme wrote:
the302 wrote:I'm considering law school with the ultimate goal of being an AF JAG. Does anyone know if the application rates have decreased at all? Or if acceptance rates have gone up? Everything I've read says the acceptance rate over the last few years was about 3%-5%, which is discouraging.

Most those who apply were probably just applying across the board. Most disquals likely are due to not being able to be a cook even due to being fat or on crazy pills



Dude, crazy pills? You wanna rephrase that maybe?

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maxpayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby maxpayne » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:36 am

Anyone have any insight on whether AF DAP applicants have to re-interview for everyone Board (versus every two boards) now that the on-line system is in place? I logged back onto the online system to update my information, but wasn't sure if I had to interview again since I interviewed for the April Board.

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JAG Dog
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Re: Military Law

Postby JAG Dog » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:57 am

lumberjack12 wrote:Anybody selected or with insights on the selection panel for AF JAG have any general advice on the motivational statement?

I've applied (unsuccessfully) before and my statement was "typical" as I talked about desire to serve/lead, family military history, love of country, connection to AF, etc. I'd imagine there are a bunch of statements like that and that they are not impactful.

Which type of letter do they prefer? How much weight goes into the motivational statement? Is it expected to change each review board? Do the review boards change for each cycle?


My statement was kind if like that (aside from the military stuff). I tried to use it to make everything on my resume relevant to JAG by highlighting the service-oriented aspects of my prior experience. But I personally think what the SJA writes up about you after the interview carries infinitely more weight, and that your statement is more just an opportunity for you to screw that up.

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maxpayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby maxpayne » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:47 pm

maxpayne wrote:Anyone have any insight on whether AF DAP applicants have to re-interview for everyone Board (versus every two boards) now that the on-line system is in place? I logged back onto the online system to update my information, but wasn't sure if I had to interview again since I interviewed for the April Board.


Just submitted my application for the AF JAG October DAP Board. Regarding the above question I asked above, your interview with an AF SJA is good for 10 months. After that, you must re-interview. Also, you can re-interview for every board if you would like.

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MarineLaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby MarineLaw » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:29 am

Looking for some sound advice from Active Duty JAGs/Judge Advocates:

I'm on the active-duty ELP program and have to make some course selections for law school this year. ELP is weird and different than FLEP in that while we get three years to go to law school while on active duty, we only get paid active duty salary for every day we are NOT in class. That means most people on ELP try to schedule their classes on as few days possible to maximize their pay.

The predicament: As fate would have it, my law school has scheduled nearly all of the crim and public law courses on MWF, and all of its non-relevant-to-JAG-practive business and employment law courses TuTh. The math equals out to taking a $3k pay hit each semester for a day that I am in class every week (~$200 per day x 15 weeks).

I understand that CrimPro (both adjudication and investigations), and evidence can't, and shouldn't be avoided by a future JAG. However, what about other courses? Is it worth saving money and taking more business-oriented courses, or should I take the pay hit and take the most relevant courses to being a JA? Also, keeping in mind, clinics and internships relevant to the JAG experience (i.e. DA's office, Trial Ad 1 & 2, AUSA, Fed Defenders, etc.) all require the types of courses scheduled on MWF.

For this semester I'm looking at
TuTh selections--i.e. not as relevant
Labor Law, First Amendment, Water Law, Torts, LRW 1

or

TuWedThFri
Labor Law, Evidence, ConCrimPro (inves.), Torts, LRW 1

I started out going to LS part time, and got selected for ELP while fulfilling another billet, now I'm going FT (hence the remaining 1L courses).

Really I'm just looking for guidance on how much of a stickler I should be on taking those recommended JAG courses versus taking what will keep my pay check from getting hit. The recommended course list for future JAs on this program is basically Labor Law, Fed Courts, Crim (everything), Intl Law, Environmental Law, Appellate Writing & Advocacy, Employment Discrim and Employment Law.

For the real-live practicing, JAs--what would you generally do? Save the money or take the relevant courses and internships/clinics?

Guidance very much appreciated!

jlxbos
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Re: Military Law

Postby jlxbos » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:49 pm

Currently in Biglaw, but seriously considering Navy/AF JAG. I've been combing these 230 or so pages, but couldn't find much info on the following:

1. How important is it to come from a litigation background (in law school and/or practice)?
2. How much time typically passes between application deadlines and getting sent off to training?
2. How likely is it to get an overseas assignment if that's what I want?

Any insights on these three points would be much appreciated!

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:42 pm

jlxbos wrote:Currently in Biglaw, but seriously considering Navy/AF JAG. I've been combing these 230 or so pages, but couldn't find much info on the following:

1. How important is it to come from a litigation background (in law school and/or practice)?
2. How much time typically passes between application deadlines and getting sent off to training?
2. How likely is it to get an overseas assignment if that's what I want?

Any insights on these three points would be much appreciated!


As always, AF specific:

Litigation background - generally speaking, you want this on your resume. There are exceptions to this rule all around but litigation skills and experience are something viewed very favorably.

Time frame - all depends but expect several months. There is a lot of pre-commissioning paperwork and taskers that need to get accomplished before you can get your orders cut. Being already a licensed attorney, this process will be faster than for the grads that are still waiting on bar results.

Overseas - a lot of folks want overseas assignments. 10%-15% of first assignment JAGs end up in Europe or the Pacific (including Alaska and Hawaii).
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

tx51
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Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:08 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby tx51 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:05 am

Any idea what the latest acceptance rates and amount of applications being submitted lately?

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BruceWayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:49 am

What's the best way to deal with credit issues in the application process? I know there is a section where you write a letter but exactly what are they looking for you to say? It's a bit different than explaining drug use or past crime...IMO it's actually more difficult.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:12 pm

MarineLaw wrote:Looking for some sound advice from Active Duty JAGs/Judge Advocates:

I'm on the active-duty ELP program and have to make some course selections for law school this year. ELP is weird and different than FLEP in that while we get three years to go to law school while on active duty, we only get paid active duty salary for every day we are NOT in class. That means most people on ELP try to schedule their classes on as few days possible to maximize their pay.

The predicament: As fate would have it, my law school has scheduled nearly all of the crim and public law courses on MWF, and all of its non-relevant-to-JAG-practive business and employment law courses TuTh. The math equals out to taking a $3k pay hit each semester for a day that I am in class every week (~$200 per day x 15 weeks).

I understand that CrimPro (both adjudication and investigations), and evidence can't, and shouldn't be avoided by a future JAG. However, what about other courses? Is it worth saving money and taking more business-oriented courses, or should I take the pay hit and take the most relevant courses to being a JA? Also, keeping in mind, clinics and internships relevant to the JAG experience (i.e. DA's office, Trial Ad 1 & 2, AUSA, Fed Defenders, etc.) all require the types of courses scheduled on MWF.

For this semester I'm looking at
TuTh selections--i.e. not as relevant
Labor Law, First Amendment, Water Law, Torts, LRW 1

or

TuWedThFri
Labor Law, Evidence, ConCrimPro (inves.), Torts, LRW 1

I started out going to LS part time, and got selected for ELP while fulfilling another billet, now I'm going FT (hence the remaining 1L courses).

Really I'm just looking for guidance on how much of a stickler I should be on taking those recommended JAG courses versus taking what will keep my pay check from getting hit. The recommended course list for future JAs on this program is basically Labor Law, Fed Courts, Crim (everything), Intl Law, Environmental Law, Appellate Writing & Advocacy, Employment Discrim and Employment Law.

For the real-live practicing, JAs--what would you generally do? Save the money or take the relevant courses and internships/clinics?

Guidance very much appreciated!

That's a pretty tough question. I don't know what the money means to you right now (or in the future), so I'll only speak to my experiences with course selection. I also believe you're a Marine, so your mileage may vary in your branch.

I greatly appreciate the classes I took in law school. I use many of them almost daily. I just looked at the list of courses I took, and there are maybe 2 that weren't entirely useful - Patent Law and Sales. And Sales only because it was really a re-hash of Contracts. I actually did use Patent Law, I guess. I had a legal assistance client come in asking about patents. We can't really help with that, but I at least pointed her in the right direction.

The crim-focused courses come into play every day. I feel like I have a much better background on those issues after having those classes. The advocacy classes/activities/experiences were also extremely helpful. Of the non-crim classes, I would strongly suggest Admin and Labor Law classes. If you can get a class exposing you to International Law, that would be helpful.

I viewed law school as a chance to get started getting good at my future career. There is a lot of carry over with the suggested JAG-centric classes. However, most people don't give up more money based on class selection. If it were me, I would take the classes, but that's not going to be everyone's choice.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:26 pm

BruceWayne wrote:What's the best way to deal with credit issues in the application process? I know there is a section where you write a letter but exactly what are they looking for you to say? It's a bit different than explaining drug use or past crime...IMO it's actually more difficult.

Just explain what you've done to take care of the problems and why it won't be an issue in the future. I had a couple of little things from college from ~10 years before I applied, and they were all behind me, so it wasn't a huge deal.

Be prepared to talk about it in the interview. Especially if the SJA likes you as an applicant. If the SJA likes you, he or she will often want to develop all the facts around any negative aspects of your application so that they can sell you better in their recommendation. They also might probe into it a bit to see how you handle questions about stuff like that.

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MarineLaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby MarineLaw » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:11 pm

Howell--

Thanks! I sure appreciate it! There is so much banter on how much law school doesn't prepare you for practice, I wasn't sure where to draw the line. That gives me some confidence that taking relevant classes will likely be worth the investment.

Thanks again!

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BruceWayne
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Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:34 pm

howell wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:What's the best way to deal with credit issues in the application process? I know there is a section where you write a letter but exactly what are they looking for you to say? It's a bit different than explaining drug use or past crime...IMO it's actually more difficult.

Just explain what you've done to take care of the problems and why it won't be an issue in the future. I had a couple of little things from college from ~10 years before I applied, and they were all behind me, so it wasn't a huge deal.

Be prepared to talk about it in the interview. Especially if the SJA likes you as an applicant. If the SJA likes you, he or she will often want to develop all the facts around any negative aspects of your application so that they can sell you better in their recommendation. They also might probe into it a bit to see how you handle questions about stuff like that.


Thanks!

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kay2016
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Re: Military Law

Postby kay2016 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:24 pm

Informational interview with an AF JAG next month before I finish application materials for oycp. Beginning of the waiting game.

good luck to anyone else in this boat!

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anon sequitur
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Re: Military Law

Postby anon sequitur » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:59 pm

How do people choose between the different branches? I don't have any military background, though I have some family in the Army and Navy, it's hard to see from the various recruiting site what the differences really would be. But it seems like most people in this thread have a focus on a certain branch.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:53 am

anon sequitur wrote:How do people choose between the different branches? I don't have any military background, though I have some family in the Army and Navy, it's hard to see from the various recruiting site what the differences really would be. But it seems like most people in this thread have a focus on a certain branch.


The services have different cultures, but it might be hard to explain to people who aren't vets. Here's a (very) rough approximation of the stereotypes. I mean no offense to other vets who think I'm talking shit about their service (if you're the kind of motivator who wants to fight about that sort of thing).

Army: Sort of a middle ground in all things. Huge. Obviously meant for ground combat but has a large chunk of the support forces as well. The culture is vaguely southern.
Air Force: Has a reputation for being the cushiest service/being pampered. Also considered the "easiest." Technically oriented. Has the hottest females according a very scientific poll conducted on the latrine walls of Iraq/Afghanistan.
Navy: Less technically oriented than the Air Force, but more than the Army. Has a lot of very old traditions. Very clear divide between officers and enlisted. Has a reputation for a lot of officer politics/infighting.
Marine Corps: Very spartan. Has a reputation for being the most physically demanding service, and usually gets the shittiest/most broken down gear and facilities.
Coast Guard: :?: :?:

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:07 am

anon sequitur wrote:How do people choose between the different branches? I don't have any military background, though I have some family in the Army and Navy, it's hard to see from the various recruiting site what the differences really would be. But it seems like most people in this thread have a focus on a certain branch.

I would suggest seeking out JAGs in each branch and finding out what their work lives are like. For example, in the AF, we're usually jacks of all trades for the first ~4 years. The Army typically lets you focus on an area for ~1 year at a time. The Navy seems to be much more Ops focused than other branches. I assume the CG wears eye patches, drinks rum, and boards vessels for plunder.

It also might be worth finding out the current state of each branch. I know the AF is dealing with manning crunches at most offices, so don't expect that work-life balance any time soon.

OUS8E
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Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 12:15 am

Re: Military Law

Postby OUS8E » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:47 pm

Still on alternate list for Navy JAG DAP, and that could be the case for the next 3 to 6 to 12 months. But my current employment (a discrete project) is coming to a close in a month or two.

I'd like to get more experience and also earn some income, at least enough to pay for gas and groceries, but know that I can't commit to a firm for a long period of time. For those of you current and former JAGs, what would you recommend I look to do while waiting on the Navy?

Thanks in advance.

Puttanesca
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:10 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Puttanesca » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:06 am

OUS8E wrote:Still on alternate list for Navy JAG DAP, and that could be the case for the next 3 to 6 to 12 months. But my current employment (a discrete project) is coming to a close in a month or two.

I'd like to get more experience and also earn some income, at least enough to pay for gas and groceries, but know that I can't commit to a firm for a long period of time. For those of you current and former JAGs, what would you recommend I look to do while waiting on the Navy?

Thanks in advance.


Not sure how the Navy alternate list works: is it definite that you will be coming off the alternate list? If it's not, I see no problem with taking a long-term position, and then just quitting if/when you get off the alternate list.

If you know for sure though that you will be selected from the alternate list, just look for temporary work. Doc review or non-legal stuff with staffing agencies. Also use your network to see if people you know are aware of any short-term opportunities at law offices. This is what I am trying to do from now up until I start in (hopefully) January.

bkenney2
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby bkenney2 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:22 pm

What branch are you in Puttanesca?

Puttanesca
Posts: 443
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Re: Military Law

Postby Puttanesca » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:33 pm

bkenney2 wrote:What branch are you in Puttanesca?


AF

bkenney2
Posts: 34
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Re: Military Law

Postby bkenney2 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:16 am

Did you AF guys get your training dates pushed b/c of budget stuff. I am a Marine, they don't seem to know when we will even be able to pick up for training. Told us they'd let us know when we have bar results in hand.

Puttanesca
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Re: Military Law

Postby Puttanesca » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:25 am

bkenney2 wrote:Did you AF guys get your training dates pushed b/c of budget stuff. I am a Marine, they don't seem to know when we will even be able to pick up for training. Told us they'd let us know when we have bar results in hand.

Not that I am aware of, but I won't have anything official about training dates until I get my bar results (and pass). My recruiter told me though that I was scheduled for January COT, which is the earliest that training normally is for those who just graduated and are awaiting bar results.




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