Military Law

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:47 am

maxpayne wrote:Just signed. I really hope that proposal doesn't pass.


JAG, DA, PD, Civilian lawyers on bases, AUSAs, Legal Aid... There's a crapton of lawyers this would effect. Not to mention social workers, firefighters, police officers, physicians, PAs, NPs, FBI/DEA/etc agents. Oh, and a number of military officers who came in later and didn't have their first few years of college paid.

The only potential upside to this is that getting these jobs might be a little less competitive. But it's already expected that you are going to be paid less for helping out your nation/state/community. This really just adds to that, creating a more permanent underclass of professionals who want to work in the public interest instead of a big private firm/corporation.

AFJAG2014
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Re: Military Law

Postby AFJAG2014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:54 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:This impacts all of you that might be counting on PSLF to manage your loans if you end up JAG or another form of public service:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... t/wkqnqBCH

It only takes a minute to register.


Wow. Might be 4 and out for me. Had I known this a year ago, I might have not accepted my offer and took a higher paying job instead. Hope this doesn't pass.

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Moves like JAGger
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Re: Military Law

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:46 pm

is there any indication in the proposal whether those who've already made/are making qualified public service payments will be grandfathered? It would be outrageously unfair to stick those who relied on the program and ignored their principal for up to 7 years.

This change would only affect those who haven't yet made qualifying payments, right??

Guess I'll be taking that SLRP money after all.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:23 pm

Moves like JAGger wrote:is there any indication in the proposal whether those who've already made/are making qualified public service payments will be grandfathered? It would be outrageously unfair to stick those who relied on the program and ignored their principal for up to 7 years.

This change would only affect those who haven't yet made qualifying payments, right??

Guess I'll be taking that SLRP money after all.


This budget would still have to get through both houses though... I'm not sure that'll happen with the current situation in DC

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:27 pm

Moves like JAGger wrote:is there any indication in the proposal whether those who've already made/are making qualified public service payments will be grandfathered? It would be outrageously unfair to stick those who relied on the program and ignored their principal for up to 7 years.


This is my biggest concern. I have been doing exactly that, using IBR to ignore the principal, as I slowly make my way to 10 years. Now, six years in, this feels like a whole lot of detrimental reliance.

Who knows. There have been a dozen news articles about proposed measures from DOD about tinkering with military retirements, COLA, and other things to save money and the subsequent outcry shut all of that down. Write your Congressman/woman and Senators - I have to wonder if there are enough JAGs and other folks hurt by this to actually get that petition to 100,000 signatures.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:25 am

I'm surprised people actually relied on PSLF. If it applies retroactively, I see a lot of upset people. I thought better of trusting it. I'll have my loans paid off this time next year without relying on it or IBR. Military pay is ridiculously deceptive. Your AGI is $40k when you're actually pulling near ~$100k. To put in perspective how powerful IBR+PSLF can be for military JAs: You may be able to get your subsidized loans deferred, rely on IBR for $200 monthly payments for unsubsidized loans, and cling on to ten years to have an unlimited amount forgiven. And that amount forgiven is tax free.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:03 am

Esquire wrote:I'm surprised people actually relied on PSLF. If it applies retroactively, I see a lot of upset people. I thought better of trusting it. I'll have my loans paid off this time next year without relying on it or IBR. Military pay is ridiculously deceptive. Your AGI is $40k when you're actually pulling near ~$100k. To put in perspective how powerful IBR+PSLF can be for military JAs: You may be able to get your subsidized loans deferred, rely on IBR for $200 monthly payments for unsubsidized loans, and cling on to ten years to have an unlimited amount forgiven. And that amount forgiven is tax free.


Aren't you Army though esquire?

The Navy, CG, and USMC guys don't get that $65k in help on their loans that Army and AF get.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:13 am

I hope my post isn't interpreted to be more than I intended. I make no opinion on PSLF. Just trying to help people understand how surprisingly good military pay can be.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:17 am

Esquire wrote:I don't understand what you're getting at. My ~$100k remark is ignoring the SLRP payment. I don't mean $100k after taxes, though. But that number is fairly comparable when you consider how military pay is taxed and the low cost of living.

I made no opinion on PSLF. Just trying to help people understand how surprisingly good military pay can be.


Sorry. Misunderstood your main point.

You did use the 65k in loan repayment from the Army though, right? Because not all the services have that, and I'm sure that really helps.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:26 am

No. You give up the GI Bill if you take the $45k after taxes. Not worth it for me but it may be for others.

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tjsmms061906
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Re: Military Law

Postby tjsmms061906 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:44 am

I may be misinterpreting this conversation but you can get both the SLRP and the GI Bill as long as you serve for a total of 6 years active. Source: I did it.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:50 am

tjsmms061906 wrote:I may be misinterpreting this conversation but you can get both the SLRP and the GI Bill as long as you serve for a total of 6 years active. Source: I did it.

I believe you are right. But your initial commitment is 4 years.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:23 am

Esquire wrote:No. You give up the GI Bill if you take the $45k after taxes. Not worth it for me but it may be for others.


Interesting. That wasn't made clear to me in the AFs promotional materials

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maxpayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby maxpayne » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:05 pm

Esquire wrote:No. You give up the GI Bill if you take the $45k after taxes. Not worth it for me but it may be for others.


So for SLRP, only $45k is actually applied to your loans after taxes?

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tjsmms061906
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Re: Military Law

Postby tjsmms061906 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:51 pm

maxpayne wrote:
Esquire wrote:No. You give up the GI Bill if you take the $45k after taxes. Not worth it for me but it may be for others.


So for SLRP, only $45k is actually applied to your loans after taxes?


For the student loan repayment program, if you are offered $65k then that is what will be applied to the loans over a three year period. You will be taxed on the $65k just as if it were income.

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maxpayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby maxpayne » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:40 am

tjsmms061906 wrote:
maxpayne wrote:
Esquire wrote:No. You give up the GI Bill if you take the $45k after taxes. Not worth it for me but it may be for others.


So for SLRP, only $45k is actually applied to your loans after taxes?


For the student loan repayment program, if you are offered $65k then that is what will be applied to the loans over a three year period. You will be taxed on the $65k just as if it were income.


OKay great. Thanks!

doctoroflaw91
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Re: Military Law

Postby doctoroflaw91 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:45 am

1L here. I had family in several branches of the armed forces that have since retired, but I am interested in exploring AF JAG. I already have an internship secured for 1L summer, but the program is something that I plan to look into for 2L year.

womeninblack
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Re: Military Law

Postby womeninblack » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:12 am

tjsmms061906 wrote:
maxpayne wrote:
Esquire wrote:No. You give up the GI Bill if you take the $45k after taxes. Not worth it for me but it may be for others.


So for SLRP, only $45k is actually applied to your loans after taxes?


For the student loan repayment program, if you are offered $65k then that is what will be applied to the loans over a three year period. You will be taxed on the $65k just as if it were income.


I think that what Esquire is saying is that $65k isn't the amount that will actually be applied to the loans. In theory, the amount is $65k, but I read a PowerPoint (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicahmcmillan.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F11%2Fja-slrp-slides-26-may-2010-webcast.ppt&ei=nNUdU8OyNcehkQfugoCACA&usg=AFQjCNEBh3bfoib6-AqlVdfa4-2lg-FXfA) that said that after taxes, the amount is about $45k that is actually paid to the loan provider.

pele1113
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Re: Military Law - Question on GLP / OYCP

Postby pele1113 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:58 pm

First, thanks for all the great information in this thread.

Second, question on the GLP / OYCP: is the commitment binding once you accept while you're still in law school (4 years of active duty)? Or do you make an election after graduating / passing the bar to commit to the 4 years of service?

If the commitment is made IN law school, that is the only downside I see to these programs -- committing so early before you have a chance to do some other things (I'm thinking state AG office).

Thanks

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maxpayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby maxpayne » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:46 pm

womeninblack wrote:
tjsmms061906 wrote:
maxpayne wrote:
Esquire wrote:No. You give up the GI Bill if you take the $45k after taxes. Not worth it for me but it may be for others.


So for SLRP, only $45k is actually applied to your loans after taxes?


For the student loan repayment program, if you are offered $65k then that is what will be applied to the loans over a three year period. You will be taxed on the $65k just as if it were income.


I think that what Esquire is saying is that $65k isn't the amount that will actually be applied to the loans. In theory, the amount is $65k, but I read a PowerPoint (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicahmcmillan.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F11%2Fja-slrp-slides-26-may-2010-webcast.ppt&ei=nNUdU8OyNcehkQfugoCACA&usg=AFQjCNEBh3bfoib6-AqlVdfa4-2lg-FXfA) that said that after taxes, the amount is about $45k that is actually paid to the loan provider.


Wow! Thanks for that powerpoint. Very informative.

Yeah, that's sort of misleading. But, $45k is still better than $0k.

UFlaw15
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Re: Military Law

Postby UFlaw15 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:38 pm

FYI...Today, I received the rejection letter for OYCP.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:38 am

UFlaw15 wrote:FYI...Today, I received the rejection letter for OYCP.


Sorry to hear

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:26 am

maxpayne wrote:
womeninblack wrote:
tjsmms061906 wrote:
maxpayne wrote:
For the student loan repayment program, if you are offered $65k then that is what will be applied to the loans over a three year period. You will be taxed on the $65k just as if it were income.


I think that what Esquire is saying is that $65k isn't the amount that will actually be applied to the loans. In theory, the amount is $65k, but I read a PowerPoint (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmicahmcmillan.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F11%2Fja-slrp-slides-26-may-2010-webcast.ppt&ei=nNUdU8OyNcehkQfugoCACA&usg=AFQjCNEBh3bfoib6-AqlVdfa4-2lg-FXfA) that said that after taxes, the amount is about $45k that is actually paid to the loan provider.


Wow! Thanks for that powerpoint. Very informative.

Yeah, that's sort of misleading. But, $45k is still better than $0k.


There are a couple of misleading things. First, and most importantly, how much you actually get out of the SLRP program depends on how much you have in student loans. The program runs 3 years, and each year you get up to 1/3 of the amount applied to your existing loans. The caveat is that they look at your existing eligible loans and only authorize SLRP payments in an amount that does not exceed 1/3 of the amount of each loan. In other words, if you had a loan of $60k, you do not receive $20k each year. Instead, not accounting for the 28% of tax that's withheld from your payment, you get $20k in year 1 (formula: 60000*33%=$20000). In year 2, you only get $13,333 (formula: 60000-20000 leaves 40000; 40000*33%=$13333). In year 3, you get $8,900ish (40000-13333=26667; 26667*33%=8900). In these circumstances, you will not have all of your loans paid off by SLRP. This also is not made clear by AF promotional materials, but it is clear in the text of the statute that authorizes SLRP. I fell into this odd category, and it was quite a disappointment when I learned that the AF would not, in fact, cover the entire amount of my student loans even though the program is authorized to pay a total amount that was more than what my loans were. But something is better than nothing, as they say.

Second, to clarify the GI bill aspect, your eligibility for the GI bill does not accrue while you are accepting SLRP payments. If you stay in for 6 years, then you can get the full 3 years of SLRP. Years 3-6 you would establish your eligibility for the GI bill (I think it takes 3 years, although I am not completely sure). If you wanted to transfer your GI Bill to your kid, however, I believe you'll run into problems if you don't stay in for longer than 6 years because of the additional service commitment required to transfer. Something to consider if your student loans were low enough that the 1/3 rule limits the amount of SLRP you'll get and you intend to transfer your GI Bill benefits to an eligible dependent.

allAF
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Re: Military Law - Question on GLP / OYCP

Postby allAF » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:46 am

pele1113 wrote:First, thanks for all the great information in this thread.

Second, question on the GLP / OYCP: is the commitment binding once you accept while you're still in law school (4 years of active duty)? Or do you make an election after graduating / passing the bar to commit to the 4 years of service?

If the commitment is made IN law school, that is the only downside I see to these programs -- committing so early before you have a chance to do some other things (I'm thinking state AG office).

Thanks


GLP/OYCP requires you to commit to enlist in the AF once you pass field training (usually the summer immediately after you are accepted into the program). You will sign an enlistment contract once you come back that fall. Presumably, you would be required to enter the AF as an enlisted member if you didn't complete ROTC, although I have no idea if they'd hold you to it. Once you complete ROTC, you commission as a 2d Lt in the reserves until you pass the bar. If you didn't pass the bar (or chose not to take it), I'm not sure if they'd transfer you to a different career field or terminate your contract. If they did terminate your contract, they may require you to repay the small stipend you receive as a ROTC cadet.

It may seem limiting to commit during law school, but it's also pretty nice. It certainly frees you from worrying about getting a job during your 3L year. Despite my OYCP acceptance, I also still had a chance to do everything I wanted to do in terms of summer internships. If your concern is passing up a non-military lawyer job directly out of law school, then those programs aren't for you.

25thPercentileGuy
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Re: Military Law

Postby 25thPercentileGuy » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:49 pm

Anyone apply for the Navy Jag Summer Internship? I'm still waiting to hear back. Was told that there would be decisions out early March. Anyone hear anything yet?




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