Military Law

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AT9
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Re: Military Law

Postby AT9 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:20 am

andythefir wrote:
AT9 wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
AT9 wrote: While I'm sure that answers to my questions are buried deep inside this 200+ page monster, it will probably take a long time to find them. So...

That's an important question for me because if GLP acceptance were notably easier, I probably would have ruled out the one school on my list that doesn't have either program (W&M). Given that the chances are no better, I don't necessarily need to cross it off my list. Thanks again!


If I could offer some advice, I would't rule out a school based on their compatibility/incompatibility with some JAG requirements. For a frame of reference, the last Air Force board had an 11% acceptance rate, up from the usual 1-2% acceptance rate. There are many people on this board who went to law school with plan A being the JAG corp. and are striking out over and over (like me). The process is just way too idiosyncratic and unpredictable to make such a huge decision based on it alone. Some schools, like William and Mary or ND, do place more into the JAG. But the toughest thing about applying is that you don't ever get a definitive "no," and the closest you get is after every other kind of employment is no longer meaningfully available.


Thanks for the advice. I only would have made that type of decision if the GLP acceptance was something like 25% vs. 10% for DAP. Given that there seems to be little or no positives with regard to increasing your chances, there's no reason for me to rule it out. And I'm glad because I like W&M. I know Hampton Roads is a huge Navy area, but I was surprised to find no ROTC detachment in the area.

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:41 am

The good SJAs will usually try to use you in a way that maximizes your talents - if you are effective in the courtroom and want to be an ADC, they can detail you to more courts.


That's interesting. For the Navy, it is the respective CO that details the trial and defense counsel (although they typically delegate it down to the Senior Trial Counsel and Senior Defense Counsel, respectively.)

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:49 pm

If anyone is interested, I have a OneNote Notebook that divides up the posts from the first ~50-70 pages of this thread into topics. PM me an e-mail address, and I'll shoot it your way. My intention was to do the whole thread, but then I started working, and, well, I haven't gone back to finish it. But a lot of the topics people ask about are covered in that portion, with the caveat that slightly more updated info is available later in the thread.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:04 pm

Any updates on post JAG career prospects? I still have no anecdotal stories of my own. Two more years until my OBC's ADSO completes.

armyhooah
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Re: Military Law

Postby armyhooah » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:14 pm

howell wrote:If anyone is interested, I have a OneNote Notebook that divides up the posts from the first ~50-70 pages of this thread into topics. PM me an e-mail address, and I'll shoot it your way. My intention was to do the whole thread, but then I started working, and, well, I haven't gone back to finish it. But a lot of the topics people ask about are covered in that portion, with the caveat that slightly more updated info is available later in the thread.


^^^ That is awesome, and you're awesome for offering it! Can't think of a better resource for current law students and 0Ls who are thinking about JAG and have time to implement all the strategies discussed.

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LAWYERED88
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Re: Military Law

Postby LAWYERED88 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:35 pm

AHHHH I CAN'T TAKE THE WAIT ANYMORE! I have also applied for ARMY AD - The Google hangout session with JARO was pretty informative. In the video, someone had mentioned that they would try to get decisions out before Christmas but also expect the office to slow down around that time. So if not Christmas, then sometime in the first half of January.

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvKLRdY1Ops

AFJAG2014
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Re: Military Law

Postby AFJAG2014 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:57 pm

AT9 wrote:Glad I found this thread - this is super helpful. While I'm sure that answers to my questions are buried deep inside this 200+ page monster, it will probably take a long time to find them. So...

1. I gather that getting AF JAG is easier by going through the graduate law program. How much easier is to to get accepted into GLP as opposed to direct appointment?

2. What are the downsides to going with the AF GLP?

3. After the four-year service commitment, a) how many people choose to remain in JAG and b) how difficult is it? Is it a matter of just choosing an extension, or is the AF pretty selective about who gets to stay in?

4. Do you get much say in what type of law you practice?

I'm highly interested in the AF JAG. Given that most of my choices don't do super well with biglaw type gigs (accepted at mostly tier 1 regionals), the job security and benefits of the AF are extremely enticing. And it's not just for financial reasons, either. My dad was a 20-year AF pilot and I've spent more time on AF bases than most JAGs will in their careers, so going into the AF seems natural and desirable for me. It's an opportunity to use my skills and knowledge while serving at the same time, all while reaping the benefits of being an AF officer. I'm like 50-75% sure I'll try to get into the GLP based on research I've done so far. Thanks for any input!


I was selected for OYCP, the 2L program of GLP. I believe Patrick Bateman nailed it when he answered your questions.

I would add as far as downside for the 2L program that I was selected for, two things come to mind:

1) You find out in Feb you are selected for the program. But it doesn't become official until mid-March to April for your local detachment. This gives you very little time to prepare for Field Training, which you will do the summer of your 2L year. I like to be on the sweet side of the curve, but I was not for Field Training and it was a difficult experience. Would I do it again? Hell to the yea. But if you like to always be in the top 10/33/etc. percent, it might not be for you. However, I was selected for the 2L program. If you are selected for the 1L program, it will give you more time to prepare.

2) I was surprised at the time commitment. I was told it would be minimal, but even at the most basic position in the ROTC detachment, it took a lot of time. This was probably due to the fact that I wanted to do things well, rather than just skim along. It is somewhat time intensive. But even without that, you are doing AS 300 and AS 400 your 3L year. This is 6 hours of undergrad credit that the rest of the cadets at your detachment get credit for but you don't. You will be doing it in addition to your 3L curriculum.

Personally, I volunteered for a very time-intensive position for the spring of my 3L year, but that's because I drink the Koolaid when it comes to military service and the Air Force. If you're looking to just skim along for your 3L year like most of my classmates are doing, GLP/OYCP might not be good for that. DA might be the better route. And sometimes I envy the DA route, to be honest!

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:17 am

[quote="AT9]Thanks for the advice. I only would have made that type of decision if the GLP acceptance was something like 25% vs. 10% for DAP. Given that there seems to be little or no positives with regard to increasing your chances, there's no reason for me to rule it out. And I'm glad because I like W&M. I know Hampton Roads is a huge Navy area, but I was surprised to find no ROTC detachment in the area.[/quote]

If you are interested in JAG, you need to be applying at every oppurtunity. GLP as a 1L, OYCP and the internship as a 2L, DAP as a 3L. Do what you can to get an unpaid internship in a local legal office (regardless of branch) during the school year if you can and have not been picked up yet. Don't wait and hope for DAP.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:25 am

NavyJAG1 wrote:
The good SJAs will usually try to use you in a way that maximizes your talents - if you are effective in the courtroom and want to be an ADC, they can detail you to more courts.


That's interesting. For the Navy, it is the respective CO that details the trial and defense counsel (although they typically delegate it down to the Senior Trial Counsel and Senior Defense Counsel, respectively.)


Are you telling me that the CBS smash hit, JAG, did not have it correct when it showed Navy TJAG personally detailing folks in his office? :D

Our detailing process is a little weird when you get down to the weeds:

The average AF Trial Counsel (O-3 at a base legal office) is detailed by the base SJA. Higher level cases will have a Senior Trial Counsel who gets detailed by the head of our Government Trial and Appellate Counsel Division, JAJG. So two prosecutors on a case with two separate chains of command. Our Senior Trial Counsels are just designated hitters, who just fly around the world trying cases, without any administrative responsibility.

Defense folks are in a separate chain of command, the Trial Defense Division, JAJD, and are tenant units on each base. We get detailed by their Chief Senior Defense Counsel, an O-5, but all the practical day to day is really done through the Senior Defense Counsel, usually an O-4.

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:41 am

Both JAG and a Few Good Men missed the mark in a couple key areas. Our Defense and Trial offices are separate commands too, it would be kind of crazy if they weren't! At the end of the day, I don't suppose the differences in the various services matter too much. The Coast Guard are a whole different ball of wax though, their attorneys can and do switch between legal and purely operational billets. I had an IO (Coast Guard typically doesn't do its own defense work, but does have trial counsel) who was the XO of a pollution response unit.

armyhooah
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Re: Military Law

Postby armyhooah » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:42 pm

LAWYERED88 wrote:AHHHH I CAN'T TAKE THE WAIT ANYMORE! I have also applied for ARMY AD - The Google hangout session with JARO was pretty informative. In the video, someone had mentioned that they would try to get decisions out before Christmas but also expect the office to slow down around that time. So if not Christmas, then sometime in the first half of January.

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvKLRdY1Ops


"Make every effort" to let us know by Christmas. Gosh, I hope so! I'll be spending the whole holiday thinking about it if not.

Also, this was a really good video. Learned quite a bit.

travellingboarder
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Re: Military Law

Postby travellingboarder » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:37 pm

LAWYERED88 wrote:AHHHH I CAN'T TAKE THE WAIT ANYMORE! I have also applied for ARMY AD - The Google hangout session with JARO was pretty informative. In the video, someone had mentioned that they would try to get decisions out before Christmas but also expect the office to slow down around that time. So if not Christmas, then sometime in the first half of January.

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvKLRdY1Ops


I'm a bit worried about my half sleeve tattoos now…I guess I'd have to try on a uniform to see if the short sleeve covers me up

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:02 am

AT9 wrote: 2. What are the downsides to going with the AF GLP?


I came in through OYCP. The biggest and only downside I have experienced is that I missed out on some of the peer friendships that started forming during COT and that only grew through JASOC (which usually follows immediately after COT). It was a little weird coming in as a "new person" when everyone seemed to know each other already. Reforming groups is also a bit awkward. But it's not a huge disadvantage, and there is plenty of time to get to know people in JASOC as well.

I have found that the advantages far outweigh any perceived disadvantage. I came in during the huge economic crash, so it was incredibly calming to know I had a job lined up ahead of time throughout my 3L year. That wasn't the case for MANY of my classmates. I really enjoy getting my yearly pay increase based on when I commissioned as a 2nd Lt (early May) as opposed to when I started active duty service (mid-December). And I get a kick out of the fact that my bio even says 2nd Lt on it. And I like to rub in the fact that I didn't have a maid service come through my rooms during field training and make my bed for me. I can also say that my military knowledge and background FAR exceeded that of my peers who went through COT. And it's kind of fun to reminisce with those of us who went through the "harder" program. And you get (aka can purchase) a cool coin to put on your desk :) And, and, and...

I do hear the comment about field training being tough for people who like to be at the top of the class. And it is a pretty intense shift to go from nothing to being in field training with cadets who've spent the past 2 years preparing for that experience. But I think worrying about getting a top spot is looking at it the wrong way. And, in fact, I had this exact conversation with my flight commander during field training when we discussed how I was doing. No one expects the law students to be a DG at field training. Nor do we need to be DGs for our careers (unlike the real ROTC cadets who need good rankings to get their dream jobs). They just want you to learn, be adaptable and flexible, work well in a team, and embrace challenges and new experiences. If you can do that, you'll do just fine at field training. Oh, and don't hurt yourself :)

Pdk7
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:43 pm


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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:48 pm

Pdk7 wrote:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Army-Judge-Advocate-Recruiting-Office-JARO/110055819048177

For all you Army applicants.


I was coming to post this, lol.

Next couple weeks huh? Man, glad I'm on vacation so I can't obsessively hit refresh, lol.

travellingboarder
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Re: Military Law

Postby travellingboarder » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:08 pm

spleenworship wrote:
Pdk7 wrote:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Army-Judge-Advocate-Recruiting-Office-JARO/110055819048177

For all you Army applicants.


I was coming to post this, lol.

Next couple weeks huh? Man, glad I'm on vacation so I can't obsessively hit refresh, lol.


Don't have Facebook…please copy/paste if you don't mind. I would appreciate it (I'm guessing that it just says the decisions will be made in the next couple of weeks, but the lawyer in me wants to read every word they posted).

Pdk7
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:08 pm

you gotta let it go or will destroy your holidays. I was talking to the SJA I interned with (who was incredible. Super laid back, very supportive, helpful, genuinely cared about the lives and welfare of his subordinates, just a great guy to work for) about how nervous I was and I'll never forget what he said to me. He asked me why I was nervous and I responded with a comment about how much I was depending on the outcome, and how much the outcome meant to me. He said "Why are you nervous about it though? Why are you even thinking about it? Its out of your hands. Its done. There is nothing you can do now to control what happens next and you just need to let it go. Concentrate on kicking ass in your final year, passing the bar, enjoying your family and friends because those are things you still need to do and can still control" and he was totally right. I was making myself miserable. I replayed that speech in my head when I was waiting for bar results too.

Good luck to you and I hope you have a great vacation!

Pdk7
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:10 pm

travellingboarder wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Pdk7 wrote:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Army-Judge-Advocate-Recruiting-Office-JARO/110055819048177

For all you Army applicants.


I was coming to post this, lol.

Next couple weeks huh? Man, glad I'm on vacation so I can't obsessively hit refresh, lol.


Don't have Facebook…please copy/paste if you don't mind. I would appreciate it (I'm guessing that it just says the decisions will be made in the next couple of weeks, but the lawyer in me wants to read every word they posted).



Its a public page. You don't need a Facebook page to click on the link to read the post.

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carmensandiego
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Re: Military Law

Postby carmensandiego » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:17 pm

Hi everyone!

This may have been posted elsewhere in this thread, so excuse me if this is redundant. But I'm a 0L and I was wondering what types of experiences that JAG, especially Air Force, look for in a candidate. Also, do factors such as family members or spouses (my fiancé is a AF pilot) have any weight?

Thanks!

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Massimiliano
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Re: Military Law

Postby Massimiliano » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:50 pm

carmensandiego wrote:Hi everyone!

This may have been posted elsewhere in this thread, so excuse me if this is redundant. But I'm a 0L and I was wondering what types of experiences that JAG, especially Air Force, look for in a candidate. Also, do factors such as family members or spouses (my fiancé is a AF pilot) have any weight?

Thanks!


All branches of the military use the "whole person" concept, i.e., not any one factor will be a deal breaker.

JAG looks for leadership qualities, undergraduate performance, law school grades, letters of recommendation, work experience, prior military service (this is not a requirement), experiences that manifest a desire to serve your country, and a compelling personal statement. I don't think having a family member serving would be relevant, though maybe you could spin that in a way that shows you know what military life is like and you are personally prepared for the challenges.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:13 pm

Massimiliano wrote:
carmensandiego wrote:Hi everyone!

This may have been posted elsewhere in this thread, so excuse me if this is redundant. But I'm a 0L and I was wondering what types of experiences that JAG, especially Air Force, look for in a candidate. Also, do factors such as family members or spouses (my fiancé is a AF pilot) have any weight?

Thanks!


All branches of the military use the "whole person" concept, i.e., not any one factor will be a deal breaker.

JAG looks for leadership qualities, undergraduate performance, law school grades, letters of recommendation, work experience, prior military service (this is not a requirement), experiences that manifest a desire to serve your country, and a compelling personal statement. I don't think having a family member serving would be relevant, though maybe you could spin that in a way that shows you know what military life is like and you are personally prepared for the challenges.


My Air Force interviewer asked about family members serving, oddly enough. Ymmv.

wesangler
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Re: Military Law

Postby wesangler » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:23 pm

Can anyone out there with any experience give a rundown of the first-tour experience in the Army JAG Corps? I am relatively familiar with how the Navy operates their First-Tour JAGs these days and was hoping for some comparison with that of the Army. Will first-tour Army JAGs have the opportunity to try courts martial right away, or is it something similar to the Navy where you spend your first-tour getting experience in each major practice area (legal assistance, trial counsel, DSO) before being able to manage your own cases? Any feedback from anyone out there would be awesome. Thanks!

travellingboarder
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Re: Military Law

Postby travellingboarder » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:56 pm

Pdk7 wrote:
travellingboarder wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Pdk7 wrote:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Army-Judge-Advocate-Recruiting-Office-JARO/110055819048177

For all you Army applicants.


I was coming to post this, lol.

Next couple weeks huh? Man, glad I'm on vacation so I can't obsessively hit refresh, lol.


Don't have Facebook…please copy/paste if you don't mind. I would appreciate it (I'm guessing that it just says the decisions will be made in the next couple of weeks, but the lawyer in me wants to read every word they posted).



Its a public page. You don't need a Facebook page to click on the link to read the post.


Army JAG Corps Twitter 4 hours ago: "WARNO: Intern & Active Duty Applicants. Final selections will be published in the next week or so via JARO social media sites. Best of luck!"

Awesome!

armyhooah
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Re: Military Law

Postby armyhooah » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:45 am

I wish I could go to sleep and wake up next Friday. Anything to help "shortly" get here, including missing Christmas. #desperation

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maxpayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby maxpayne » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:56 pm

armyhooah wrote:I wish I could go to sleep and wake up next Friday. Anything to help "shortly" get here, including missing Christmas. #desperation


Considering this is my 3rd time applying to a AF DAP Board and 1st to the Army AD, I think I have this whole wait thing figured out. Just forget about it. LOL. You can't do squat about when results will be released and you can't do squat to increase your chances of selection because the decision has already been made.

Plus, it's really hard to guess when results will be posted -- especially here lately --- and the release timeframes the "people in the know" give are usually very vague, as they don't even "know" when results will drop. The Army will post on their site when the list is ready, and TLSers/AFOTS.COMers will post when the AF list has dropped or when they received a call from their SJA.

I have found the worst time to wait is when you are either working M-F at a job or during finals time for law school because you are just sitting there and have plenty of time to wait/worry. BUT, since most people are either done with finals or will be off work next week, the wait should be easier because everyone will hopefully be enjoying Christmas time with their friends and family.

Also, alcohol doesn't hurt the wait...........




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