Military Law

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ihatelaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby ihatelaw » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:40 pm

drug tests only go back so far. if the guy tried pot a few times and doesnt use it consistently he would pass a drug test.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:37 pm

J-Rod wrote:How big of a deal is the drug use thing? I have tried pot before . . . is that going to hinder me a lot when applying for JAG? I'm in no way a chronic user, and have no dependency on any drugs or alcohol.


It depends on how recently you smoked and with what frequency.

If you have smoked throughout college and law school, when it can be said that you "knew better," that may pose more of a problem.

You can also obviously lie about it. You will not get a polygraph for a secret clearance (though you may for top secret). That said, if your friends/family/relatives know that you have smoked, it may come up in the OPM background checks. I always feel it is better to be forthright with this sort of stuff and admit that it was a mistake to do it but that part of your life is now over.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:00 pm

Yeah, i did it a couple times in high school and once or twice early in college

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:24 pm

I thought I would give this thread a bump with some news. In that I thankfully passed the bar, my duty station options were given to me and I went with my my #5 CONUS (continental US) pick (out of 22 CONUS and OCONUS bases on my wish list), Nellis AFB in sunny Las Vegas.

The handful of other people I know that received their bar results in Sept/Early Oct all received picks that matched somewhere on their dream sheet, so it may be advantageous to sit for a bar with a quick turn around. I think North Carolina results were among the first this year (at least in states where I knew people). This is totally speculation on my part but some threads I read on AirForceOTS seemed to indicate that those with late bar results, namely CA/NY, screwed those people over in terms of getting a preferred base in that the good ones were already given away.


Best of luck to everyone.

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Corsair
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Re: Military Law

Postby Corsair » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:37 pm

..

themoffman
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Re: Military Law

Postby themoffman » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:46 pm

There are so many duty stations in CA though for all the services, hopefully they don't get screwed
How many years are you going to do and what about deploying?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:14 pm

Corsair wrote:What are the largest locations (in terms of number of lawyers) and how many large-ish locations are there to choose from, before you get down to tiny places that only have a handful of lawyers?


There really is not a direct correlation between the size of the base in terms of # of personnel and the size of the legal office. Wright-Patterson in Ohio is one of the biggest in the country but the Base Legal Office with the 88 Air Base Wing (where you would go as a new 1st Lt JAG), only has 8 lawyers. Some of the bases in the boondocks like Minot in Montana or Grand Forks in North Dakota have a smaller base population but well staffed legal offices due to the sensitive missions held by the base (nuclear, long range strategic bombing, etc).

The mission of the base is what is the most important thing to consider with JAG. For example, Wright-Patt is the HQ for Material Command, which means lots of top brass, no flight mission, and lots of contract/labor/enviromental law. There are very few courts-martial at WPAFB because of the high officer to enlisted ratio (most bases, 1:10/1:15, WPAFB is 1:1).
When looking at a base figure out what their primary mission is and then consider how legal work would be impacted by that. Nellis, where I am headed, is the primary training school for our fighters, so there are lots of pilots, maintence personnel, etc. Good for military justice but may be weaker in other areas.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:18 pm

themoffman wrote:There are so many duty stations in CA though for all the services, hopefully they don't get screwed
How many years are you going to do and what about deploying?


I'm not totally sure I understand what you are saying. Just because there are a decent amount of Forts/Naval Stations/Air Force Bases/Camps in California does not mean that those taking the California bar have a shot at those bases. There is no connection between the state that licenses you and the state your base is located.

My initial commitment is 4 years active, 4 years inactive. I have no idea if I will re-up after my first tour or go back to civilian life. I'll take my deployment(s) as they come. While it is not something I would totally look forward to, I would take a lot of pride in deploying and I truly feel it is necessary part of military service. AF deployments are in the 6 month range, which is far more palatable than the 12-16 months Army JAGs can face.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:12 am

Figured I'd post what I know of the Navy JAG world. Not sure of the split, but the two main sources of JAGS is Direct Commission and the "Funded Law Program" (commissioned officer decides to change career path and go to LS on the Navy while receiving full pay; needless to say, the service commitment is substantial).

There has been quite a bit of discussion earlier in the thread about deployment lengths, it is true that AF deployments are shorter, but you'll likely do more of them. Only aircraft carriers, big deck Marine carriers and afloat staffs have JAGs and they tend to be more senior. One I know has always been stateside, others I know have 1-2 over a career.

And don't forget quality of the deployment. AF: fly in, spend 4 mos in your hot, dusty tent city in the middle of nowhere. Navy 6-10 mos with stops in places like Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand, Australia, Dubai, Bahrain, Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey (Just to name the places I've been while on a ship).

Like JAGs from the other services, you usu start with trial law, and move to operational/law of armed conflict later in the career.

The only drawback of being a Navy JAG is constantly having to answer the question, "Hey, can you fly jets like the guy on TV?" :-)

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:41 pm

What is usually entailed in a JAG deployment? And will you be doing trial law no matter where you go? Or if you choose a base with a specific mission, are you more likely to do contract/labor law, etc.

I would assume that if you don't plan to be career military, then choosing a base where you get to practice the type of law you'd want to practice as a civilian later on might be a good route to go?

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:13 pm

J-Rod wrote:What is usually entailed in a JAG deployment? And will you be doing trial law no matter where you go? Or if you choose a base with a specific mission, are you more likely to do contract/labor law, etc.

I would assume that if you don't plan to be career military, then choosing a base where you get to practice the type of law you'd want to practice as a civilian later on might be a good route to go?


Speaking from a Navy perspective only, and based exclusively on the JAGs I've been friends with over the years, all JAGs seem to start off in the Base/Region Legal Service Office, serving as trial counsel at courts martial (either govt or defense). You will also likely get involved with advising ships and squadrons on pre-deployment legal considerations (powers of attorney, etc.). After that, you might be able to get assigned to a base JAG as an assistant who may deal with contract/labor law.

When you are assigned to a ship, it's typically an aircraft carrier (5,000+ people) or an amphibious assault ship (3,000+ Sailors & Marines); or possibly on the admiral's staff who commands the entire task group. Shipboard, you would be responsible for advising the Captain on all legal matters-- which can vary from prosecuting misconduct, up through some really interesting issues of national sovereignty on the high seas and in operational law (rights/obligations of self defense, establishing rules of engagement, etc.); for the admiral, you will tend to focus more on the operational law and be the final legal review for the actions taken by subordinate units (e.g. approving other than honorable discharges) that the admiral must personally approve.

When you go overseas, the life of the Navy JAG actually gets easier. Sailors tend to focus on the job and stay out of trouble when they're deployed. One thing you'd do is go around after a port visit and evaluate/pay foreign tort claims that locals may have for damage that may have been caused by Sailors ashore (yes, there are still occasionally bar fights...no, it's not like the old WWII movies...). It's returning home-- and especially while the ship is assigned to a shipyard for maintenance-- when Sailors tend to get in more trouble, calling for more courts martial and non-judicial punishment.

You won't get super-rich doing it, but life as an officer is pretty decent. It's a great way to serve the country. I'm still in the app process, but I can't imagine anything in a firm/corporate office is as exhilarating as being out on the flight deck with a Super Hornet at full throttle waiting to be launched down the catapult. You won't get to do that every day as a JAG...but you WILL get to do it.

bustedup
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Re: Military Law

Postby bustedup » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:36 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Carry on,
PB


Let me help you out right from the start. Don't become one of those guys with who signs emails with "carry on" or "out" or anything similar. It is not cool or funny and does not make you seem "more military."

Just a friendly heads up :)

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:44 am

bustedup wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Carry on,
PB


Let me help you out right from the start. Don't become one of those guys with who signs emails with "carry on" or "out" or anything similar. It is not cool or funny and does not make you seem "more military."

Just a friendly heads up :)


Can I use "Seacrest out" and not offend your sensibilities?

It was just a random choice of phrase, not me trying to flex nuts. I'm in the Air Force after all.

bustedup
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Re: Military Law

Postby bustedup » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:09 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Can I use "Seacrest out" and not offend your sensibilities?

It was just a random choice of phrase, not me trying to flex nuts. I'm in the Air Force after all.


Noted. It's just so common for junior officers to get really fired up about junior officerdom and start doing nerdy things like saying "carry on" all the time. Again, just a friendly (no sarcasm) reminder.
Cheers!

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partymidget
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Re: Military Law

Postby partymidget » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:54 pm

do you get to choose where you want to be stationed after 2-4 years in the Navy JAG? I think if you did it would be cool to be on a base overseas for a year or more.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:39 am

partymidget wrote:do you get to choose where you want to be stationed after 2-4 years in the Navy JAG? I think if you did it would be cool to be on a base overseas for a year or more.


Any change of station is a negotiation between your desires and needs of the navy. That said if you are asking to go overseas, I can't imagine you wouldn't get it. There are even trial service offices overseas so first tour might even be possible. Just ask & see what they say!

Good luck, out.

(any less pretentious when a senior officer says it? :-). Just don't do it regardless of rank)

bustedup
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Re: Military Law

Postby bustedup » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:40 am

Rotor wrote:
Good luck, out.

(any less pretentious when a senior officer says it? :-). Just don't do it regardless of rank)



"Pretentious" isn't the word I'd use 8)

imdashep
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Re: Military Law

Postby imdashep » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:21 pm

Info on physical requirements for Navy/AF?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:08 pm

imdashep wrote:Info on physical requirements for Navy/AF?


Air Force: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce/a/affitness.htm

It's amazing a simple Google search can find.

imdashep
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Re: Military Law

Postby imdashep » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:44 pm

I found that, and a corresponding Navy one, but was looking for more intangible stuff. However, I understand the desire to use sarcasm in that situation.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:57 pm

imdashep wrote:I found that, and a corresponding Navy one, but was looking for more intangible stuff. However, I understand the desire to use sarcasm in that situation.


I'm not sure what you mean then. You either qualify with a Good/Excellent at OCS/OTS and do not have test again for another year, or are sub-par and have requalify in 3-6 months. Most Wing Commanders give those with Excellent scores 1-2 extra days off in a year, though that is a base by base, wing by wing, sort of thing.

At least at the AFB I worked at was office wide (the legal office) PT 3-4 days week. 2 of them generally are AM runs with some calisthenics but sometimes it is office wide basketball, or just do your own thing for 45-60 minutes. 2-3 afternoons a week you could get out of work an hour early (3:30) in order to work out. There were also Wing wide competitions like a 5K with trophies for the top finishers.

The PT intensity and structure truly seems dependent on your office's SJA (0-5/0-6 that runs the legal office) and then the Wing Commander (generally an 0-6, Wings are equivalent to an Army Brigade).

Your Officer's Training will have much more PT, along with a lot of the boot camp type exercises.

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Bosque
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Re: Military Law

Postby Bosque » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:28 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
imdashep wrote:I found that, and a corresponding Navy one, but was looking for more intangible stuff. However, I understand the desire to use sarcasm in that situation.


I'm not sure what you mean then. You either qualify with a Good/Excellent at OCS/OTS and do not have test again for another year, or are sub-par and have requalify in 3-6 months. Most Wing Commanders give those with Excellent scores 1-2 extra days off in a year, though that is a base by base, wing by wing, sort of thing.

At least at the AFB I worked at was office wide (the legal office) PT 3-4 days week. 2 of them generally are AM runs with some calisthenics but sometimes it is office wide basketball, or just do your own thing for 45-60 minutes. 2-3 afternoons a week you could get out of work an hour early (3:30) in order to work out. There were also Wing wide competitions like a 5K with trophies for the top finishers.

The PT intensity and structure truly seems dependent on your office's SJA (0-5/0-6 that runs the legal office) and then the Wing Commander (generally an 0-6, Wings are equivalent to an Army Brigade).

Your Officer's Training will have much more PT, along with a lot of the boot camp type exercises.


See, that isn't exactly true. My brother is in naval ROTC right now, is in perfect complience with all of the PT numbers and they are still making him see a nutritionist this semester. He is below the suggest weight for his height, but he doesn't look it. Although they don't say it very loudly, they care a lot about how you look in uniform. So long as you are fit and LOOK fit, you should be ok.

On an unrelated note, I am also planning on going the JAG route in the Navy. I am from a Navy family, and everyone I have ever talked to in all branches does agree with the OP: the quality of life on your base assignments in the Air Force is WAY better than everywhere else. Also, those short deployments are better for families.

That said, there is a reason I am going USN and not USAF, and it ain't cause that's what my daddy did.

imdashep
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Re: Military Law

Postby imdashep » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:50 pm

And that reason is.....

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Bosque
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Re: Military Law

Postby Bosque » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:05 pm

Well, partly because I respect the Navy more, which would probably have to do with all the exposure I got to it when I was younger. In that sense it is because that was the way my father went. However, I would say the decision is based more on where I would be assigned and deployed. My Dad retired at the end of my freshman year of high school, so we moved back to where all of my family is from: Albuquerque, New Mexico. I love that city to death and will probably do the same once I retire for good, but I found myself missing the ocean. But it was ok, I still had mountains .

For the past 3 years that I have been in college (with the exception of a 6 month stint in Sydney with Study Abroad, more on that later) I have been living in West Texas. I love my school, but I hate it here with a fiery passion. I miss the ocean a lot, and I don’t think I could ever live in a plains state again. Unfortunately, a lot of the Air Force assignments are in locations very much like this one. Virtually every Navy assignment is on the coast, and I don’t think we ever lived anywhere I wouldn’t mind living again.

I also know I would rather be on a ship making multiple ports for 6 month to a year than in a tent in Iraq for 4 months. There are a number of other reasons, but That is the most important for me.

BHL
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Re: Military Law

Postby BHL » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:46 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
imdashep wrote:I found that, and a corresponding Navy one, but was looking for more intangible stuff. However, I understand the desire to use sarcasm in that situation.


I'm not sure what you mean then. You either qualify with a Good/Excellent at OCS/OTS and do not have test again for another year, or are sub-par and have requalify in 3-6 months. Most Wing Commanders give those with Excellent scores 1-2 extra days off in a year, though that is a base by base, wing by wing, sort of thing.

At least at the AFB I worked at was office wide (the legal office) PT 3-4 days week. 2 of them generally are AM runs with some calisthenics but sometimes it is office wide basketball, or just do your own thing for 45-60 minutes. 2-3 afternoons a week you could get out of work an hour early (3:30) in order to work out. There were also Wing wide competitions like a 5K with trophies for the top finishers.

The PT intensity and structure truly seems dependent on your office's SJA (0-5/0-6 that runs the legal office) and then the Wing Commander (generally an 0-6, Wings are equivalent to an Army Brigade).

Your Officer's Training will have much more PT, along with a lot of the boot camp type exercises.

I'm made the recent DAP board and wanted to know more about the typical day at an AFB. Can you provide me with some oversight? Thanks.

If I get an extra 1-2 days off for being excellent, I better work on shaving a few seconds off my 1.5mi time. I'm borderline right now, though turning 25 before I commission will make it easier.




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