Military Law

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:15 pm

I thought it was strange that a Sergeant Major (E-9, basically the highest enlisted you could be) with two decades of experience would salute an officer of any rank, even after only having a few months on the job. But that's how it is. However, just because the SGM will salute the CPT doesn't mean the CPT will disrespect the SGM.

You salute those who outrank you. They've earned it and if you do a good job and stick with it, you'll get yours, too. I've noticed a lot of professionalism in that sense.

illmal
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Re: Military Law

Postby illmal » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:32 pm

Nice clarification on SF vs SOF. Even people in the military mix that one up. Most people, actually.

As for respect, yeah it's usually going to be there there, even from a CSM to a 2nd Lt. It's a fine line, though, and both parties have to show respect.

That's how it's supposed to be, and how it usually is. However, as they say, "you're not infantry unless you've got at least one article 15".

AndyB617
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Re: Military Law

Postby AndyB617 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:34 pm

i know as a former NCO (and future JAG hopeful) that i actually took pride in my salute. and i always thought that others (including E-7s and above) that didn't have sharp salutes made themselves look bad. it's weird...i never really looked at the salute as saying "oh, you're better than me so i have to respect you by saluting you" although some people i knew definitely did. i always saw it more as a time-honored military tradition. that's just me though.

p.s. - as an aside...there is NO better feeling in the world than saluting while hearing the star spangled banner as the flag is being raised on base, or for taps when it is being taken down. it's indescribable really.

Kretzy
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kretzy » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:11 pm

I also wanted to say that I found this thread incredibly helpful. I've been interested in JAG for a while, and the information here has given me more insight than everywhere else I've checked combined (including the JAG sites online).

Now if we can get rid of DADT sometime soon, I can actually apply.

CyLaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby CyLaw » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:23 pm

Kretzy wrote:I also wanted to say that I found this thread incredibly helpful. I've been interested in JAG for a while, and the information here has given me more insight than everywhere else I've checked combined (including the JAG sites online).

Now if we can get rid of DADT sometime soon, I can actually apply.


Why don't you help? Check out SLDN

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:54 pm

Oy. This is funny, because people get it wrong all the time. People somehow think that they're saying, "Oh, LT So-and-So is such a jerkoff. I'll let him know what I think of him by withholding my salute. That'll show him."

It's not the PERSON you're saluting. It's the rank, the uniform, and the flag on their shoulder. Oftentimes the person and the rank are interchangeable; I know and have worked for a lot of really great officers. Sometimes the person wearing the rank is a douche. That happens, unfortunately. I still salute and say sir/ma'am when it's warranted, because to do otherwise stains MY honor. It doesn't disrespect them, it disrespects the uniform, and it makes me look like a raging asshole.

That's how I see it, anyway.

FeuerFrei
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Re: Military Law

Postby FeuerFrei » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:39 am

.
Last edited by FeuerFrei on Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

typodragon
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Re: Military Law

Postby typodragon » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:59 am

FeuerFrei wrote:What's the highest rank a JAG can attain? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a JAG as a 4 star general but can they get to the O-7/O-8 range or is that strictly for combat officers?


I believe _the_ jag is a 3 star general or equivalent. no idea how many total flag officers each corps has though.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:08 am

FeuerFrei wrote:What's the highest rank a JAG can attain? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a JAG as a 4 star general but can they get to the O-7/O-8 range or is that strictly for combat officers?


The Judge Advocate General is now a 3-star. There are 4 other 1-star general positions within Army JAG at least.

Congress just made the top JAG a 3-star across the board, so in the Navy it's now Vice Admiral, AF and Marines it is also Lt. General.

The people serving in these positions are there for a reason . . . don't be quick to say you wouldn't want one as a 4-star, plenty of them have been advising General's for years now, and have complex understandings of combat operations. They could do the job, and do it well.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:24 pm

FeuerFrei wrote:What's the highest rank a JAG can attain? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a JAG as a 4 star general but can they get to the O-7/O-8 range or is that strictly for combat officers?


J-Rod hit it. TJAG for all the services is an 0-9, 3-Star. In Air Force JAG, the Deputy Judge Advocate General (DJAG) is a 2-Star, 0-8 billet. We then have Brigader General billets for the Commander of the AF Legal Operations Agency (AFLOA), the SJA of Air Combat Command/Air Material Command/and at least one other Major Command that is escaping my memory at the moment.

I also don't see the issue with a Judge Advocate 4-Star. The vast majority of 4-Star billets are run by those that come up through the "primary function" specialty of that service: Rated officers in the USAF, Army/Marine Infantry, Surface Warfare in the Navy. That said, there are a number of 3 Stars and some 4-Stars are are the exception to that rule. Air Force 4-Star General Hayden ran the NSA and CIA was an Intelligence Officer his entire career.

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:00 pm

There are a few non-combat branch four star generals, at least in the Army. GEN Anne Dunwoody, for example, who is the first female four star. She's a logistician. I don't see the issue with a four-star JAG or other specialty.

It depends on the billet, though. Not every four-star is going to be a MACOM commander.

anthonyc7599
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Re: Military Law

Postby anthonyc7599 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:13 pm

Rotor wrote:Thought I'd post here as the most appropriate of the military related threads:

Had my retirement ceremony on Friday and it was great. Surreal at times, sad at others, but all in all just a GREAT day. For those staying for the long haul, don't just skulk off without the pomp. You owe it to your family & colleagues/subordinates, but if my case is indicative, it's a fabulous day for you too.

With my uniforms going into storage and the movers coming tomorrow, I can now get a bit excited for school to start in 3 weeks!

Go Navy!!


Just picked up my -214 and discharge cert today. Kinda weird thinking no more Marine Corps. Still debating the reserves, but will at least take a semester to see if it is doable with school. Be nice to have the extra cash though.

Kretzy
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kretzy » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:15 pm

CyLaw wrote:
Kretzy wrote:I also wanted to say that I found this thread incredibly helpful. I've been interested in JAG for a while, and the information here has given me more insight than everywhere else I've checked combined (including the JAG sites online).

Now if we can get rid of DADT sometime soon, I can actually apply.


Why don't you help? Check out SLDN


I have been working with them out in Colorado, and will continue now that I've moved to CT. As soon as I get all of my things moved in and together, they can expect a decent chunk of my volunteer time.

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scott82
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Re: Military Law

Postby scott82 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:30 pm

anthonyc7599 wrote:
Rotor wrote:Thought I'd post here as the most appropriate of the military related threads:

Had my retirement ceremony on Friday and it was great. Surreal at times, sad at others, but all in all just a GREAT day. For those staying for the long haul, don't just skulk off without the pomp. You owe it to your family & colleagues/subordinates, but if my case is indicative, it's a fabulous day for you too.

With my uniforms going into storage and the movers coming tomorrow, I can now get a bit excited for school to start in 3 weeks!

Go Navy!!


Just picked up my -214 and discharge cert today. Kinda weird thinking no more Marine Corps. Still debating the reserves, but will at least take a semester to see if it is doable with school. Be nice to have the extra cash though.


If you're planning on starting school as soon as you get out, I recommend filing for unemployment. So long as you are a full time student, you'll get GI Bill + unemployment benefits for the first six months after discharge (though this might vary by state of residence) and you won't have to look for a job. I did this when I was discharged four years ago and I was getting $2400 a month just to go to school. It made the transition back to student life much easier.

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chief915
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Re: Military Law

Postby chief915 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:09 pm

Paichka wrote:Oy. ...

It's not the PERSON you're saluting. It's the rank, the uniform, and the flag on their shoulder. Oftentimes the person and the rank are interchangeable; I know and have worked for a lot of really great officers. Sometimes the person wearing the rank is a douche. That happens, unfortunately. I still salute and say sir/ma'am when it's warranted, because to do otherwise stains MY honor. It doesn't disrespect them, it disrespects the uniform, and it makes me look like a raging asshole.

That's how I see it, anyway.


This is true - I know from having driven onto Air Force Bases in a car that uses the DOD windshield sticker, which indicates my father-in-law's rank (Chief Master Sergeant). Even when it's just me and a dependent in the car and he's not there, the security forces at the gate salute. They are indeed saluting the rank. I see it as them recognizing his achievement, not saluting me or patronizing me, etc. It's a matter of respect for the rank.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:07 pm

Paichka wrote:There are a few non-combat branch four star generals, at least in the Army. GEN Anne Dunwoody, for example, who is the first female four star. She's a logistician. I don't see the issue with a four-star JAG or other specialty.

It depends on the billet, though. Not every four-star is going to be a MACOM commander.



Forgive my ignorance, but does MACOM stand for Major Command?

I know of the 9 multi-service commands, africom, sentcom, socom, etc.

CyLaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby CyLaw » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:26 pm

J-Rod wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but does MACOM stand for Major Command?


Major Army Command

anthonyc7599
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Re: Military Law

Postby anthonyc7599 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:37 pm

scott82 wrote:
anthonyc7599 wrote:
Just picked up my -214 and discharge cert today. Kinda weird thinking no more Marine Corps. Still debating the reserves, but will at least take a semester to see if it is doable with school. Be nice to have the extra cash though.


If you're planning on starting school as soon as you get out, I recommend filing for unemployment. So long as you are a full time student, you'll get GI Bill + unemployment benefits for the first six months after discharge (though this might vary by state of residence) and you won't have to look for a job. I did this when I was discharged four years ago and I was getting $2400 a month just to go to school. It made the transition back to student life much easier.


Already there. Filled out the forms as soon as I got home.

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Fujin11
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fujin11 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:18 am

What exactly do you do in JAG School?

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:50 am

From the website (LinkRemoved):

Judge Advocate Officer Basic Course (Phase II)
Length: 10.5 weeks (an additional 2 weeks of military orientation is conducted at Fort Lee, Virginia)
Scope: The course emphasizes those areas of military law that are most likely to concern a judge advocate officer in the first duty assignment (first 2 years of service). It provides an introduction to the following areas of military legal practice:

criminal law and procedure
administrative and civil law
legal assistance
fiscal law
international and operational law
Prerequisites: Commissioned officers who are licensed attorneys (members in good standing of a state bar) and who have been appointed in the Judge Advocate General’s Corps.

alibaba286
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Re: Military Law

Postby alibaba286 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:28 pm

i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!

i'm going to be a 1L in a few weeks (!) and i've been seriously considering the JAG route. like someone said earlier, usually when i get these ambitious ideas, they kind of fizzle out, but this one has stuck with me for a long while, through several hours of research and consideration.

i'm focusing mainly on navy or coast guard JAG. i need to be near the coasts, both for my sanity and my significant other's job prospects (he works in the marine industry and it would be difficult for him be happily employed in the breadbasket of america).

i feel like the CG route is very different from that of the other branches, because it's so small, DOHS instead of DOD, almost exclusively domestic, etc. that appeals to me in some ways, but i also like what the navy has to offer (based off the website, mostly). i know both are also super-competitive, so i'm trying to keep my options open.

if anyone has any insight or additional information on anything that you think would be useful to me, i'd really appreciate it.

(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")

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iagolives
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Re: Military Law

Postby iagolives » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:01 pm

alibaba286 wrote:i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!

i'm going to be a 1L in a few weeks (!) and i've been seriously considering the JAG route. like someone said earlier, usually when i get these ambitious ideas, they kind of fizzle out, but this one has stuck with me for a long while, through several hours of research and consideration.

i'm focusing mainly on navy or coast guard JAG. i need to be near the coasts, both for my sanity and my significant other's job prospects (he works in the marine industry and it would be difficult for him be happily employed in the breadbasket of america).

i feel like the CG route is very different from that of the other branches, because it's so small, DOHS instead of DOD, almost exclusively domestic, etc. that appeals to me in some ways, but i also like what the navy has to offer (based off the website, mostly). i know both are also super-competitive, so i'm trying to keep my options open.

if anyone has any insight or additional information on anything that you think would be useful to me, i'd really appreciate it.

(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")


Hey, a few things to consider RE: Coast Guard v. Navy. First of all, in the CG, you are a line officer (there is no JAG corps, per se). Also, you begin in the CG as a full Lieutenant while, again, I believe, the Navy you are a Lieutenant, Junior Grade. This is important because, in the CG, you can be "integrated" into the service at Lieutenant Commander and be assured a retirement. So, basically, if you are promoted once, you can get some sort of retirement. I do not believe this is necessary true with the Navy. Finally, because the CG is exempt from the Posse Comatatus Act et al, you will be doing traditional law enforcement law a lot while in the Navy you will be doing none of that.

This isn't meant to persuade you one way or another, I love both the navy and the Coast Guard. However, maybe just because I've toyed with joining the CG off and on for years, I tend to lean more towards one branch than the other often. They are two very different forces that do very different albeit equally important missions. But, that being said, you will be serving your country either way, so you really can't go wrong! Good luck.

PS: If you decide that full-time service isn't in the cards in the end, you can be a reserve JAG officer in the CG but not in the Navy.

PPS: I found this very interesting, but the CG is the only military service in the US where men and women can serve side-by-side at all duty stations. Because this is a rather important issue to me, I found it very heartening. :)

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dapoetic1
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Re: Military Law

Postby dapoetic1 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:48 pm

alibaba286 wrote:i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!


(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")


Just because you're in the military there is no requirement for you to wear your service dress to civilian functions. Of course, many military personnel do in fact choose to wear their dress uniforms to formal occasions like weddings, on cruise ships, black tie affairs etc. But as long as it's a civilian function you can wear whatever you want.

Just to digress
And as far as the saluting goes--
1) Even at the highest enlisted rank gate guards should not be saluting other enlisted troops. Even as an E-9 no one is required to salute the member.
2) Enlisted personnel don't salute officers because of a power thing. The salute is actually an exchange. The enlisted member or junior officer in the case of two officers of different ranks salutes first and the higher ranking officer returns the salute. The salute started as a way to show an approaching comrade that you are unarmed. A person rendering a salute should do it sharply as should the person returning the salute. Both are signs of respect

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:54 pm

alibaba286 wrote:(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")


Tell your best friend that you wouldn't have to wear an "army suit" at her wedding. The only time that you're required to wear your uniform is at official functions. :)

amorphousbulge
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Re: Military Law

Postby amorphousbulge » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:18 pm

Responding to Navy v. CG, in the Navy you are a full LT (0-3) within a year, pretty much automatically. And while promotion is not guaranteed, you do get retirement once you hit 0-4 I believe.




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