Military Law

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:00 am

Keithustus wrote: Lawyers just out of law school are O-1s or -2s and typically become O-3 during their first assignment after completing the JAG basic school. I start law school this month, and when I graduate, I likely will have already have become an O-4. I've been told that it doesn't work that way in the Marines, though, but I don't think I've met a Marine JAG before so can't personally confirm. I've been told that in the Navy, they're O-1 once they graduate law school and pin O-2 they day they arrive for JAG school.


As a note, I do know that for the Army Reserve they promote you based on prior service. It's actually apparently a bad thing for some new Army Reserve JAs because they are rapidly placed in positions where they do less actual lawyering and more supervising. http://www.goarmy.com/jag/jag-reserve-component.html . I would be very surprised if Active Army and Navy had a different deal going on. I also think USCG won't demote you either (though their Legal Officers are also Line Officers, like the Marines). I also know that Active Marines have a different deal going on, I know a Marine 1LT who will become a CPT while doing his judicial clerkship.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Military Law

Postby ScottRiqui » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:17 am

spleenworship wrote:
Keithustus wrote: Lawyers just out of law school are O-1s or -2s and typically become O-3 during their first assignment after completing the JAG basic school. I start law school this month, and when I graduate, I likely will have already have become an O-4. I've been told that it doesn't work that way in the Marines, though, but I don't think I've met a Marine JAG before so can't personally confirm. I've been told that in the Navy, they're O-1 once they graduate law school and pin O-2 they day they arrive for JAG school.


As a note, I do know that for the Army Reserve they promote you based on prior service. It's actually apparently a bad thing for some new Army Reserve JAs because they are rapidly placed in positions where they do less actual lawyering and more supervising. http://www.goarmy.com/jag/jag-reserve-component.html . I would be very surprised if Active Army and Navy had a different deal going on. I also think USCG won't demote you either (though their Legal Officers are also Line Officers, like the Marines). I also know that Active Marines have a different deal going on, I know a Marine 1LT who will become a CPT while doing his judicial clerkship.


I can confirm that active-duty Navy doesn't interrupt your service when you transition to JAG, even if you were originally a line officer. Once of my friends in my first squadron was a line officer and was picked up for a transition. She was an O-2 when she started law school, put on O-3 while she was in school, and once she graduated and became a JAG (a staff officer billet), she was promoted to O-4 and O-5 at the same time as all of her peers who she was originally commissioned with.

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:31 am

Hmmmm, possibilities, if true, anyway. But the folks with whom I've talked talk indicate it isn't so easy as some of you indicate. However, that would still all assume that I had any interest in leaving the career field I have loved so much already and become a boring JAG. Sure, the JAG Corps may be fun on active duty, but I only want active duty when so directed by the President, not every day.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:37 am

Keithustus wrote:Hmmmm, possibilities, if true, anyway. But the folks with whom I've talked talk indicate it isn't so easy as some of you indicate. However, that would still all assume that I had any interest in leaving the career field I have loved so much already and become a boring JAG. Sure, the JAG Corps may be fun on active duty, but I only want active duty when so directed by the President, not every day.



So wait, you think JAG would be boring but you are going to law school... why?

Seriously, from everything I have read and heard being a JAG is like 1000 times more exciting than 90% of the lawyer jobs out there. Even when you are doing the one weekend a month, two weeks a year gig.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:10 am

Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:00 am

spleenworship wrote:Seriously, from everything I have read and heard being a JAG is like 1000 times more exciting than 90% of the lawyer jobs out there. Even when you are doing the one weekend a month, two weeks a year gig.


Seeing and hearing is different than actually seeing a JAG at work and talking with them about their work. Trust me, at least in the reserve components while not mobilized, the JAGs are, while great people and indispensable, not having as much fun as most everyone else. MDMP for a JAG is copy & paste. CPXs for a JAG are 90% waiting for things to happen, then hoping there are enough facts to add to the discussion. Most of the rest of your time is spent supervising sexual-assault training, or property-loss investigation reports, or advising commanders about rank reductions and involuntary separations. To really have an exciting JAG life, you need to be on active duty, which I will not do.


spleenworship wrote:Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?


Essentially yes. There is a body of law that protects all servicemembersof the reserve components from discrimination in hiring, in advancement, from termination. They apply whether you're a cashier or a senior executive at your company. That's why I posted the link to Employer Support to the Guard and Reserve above. ESGR.org. But not being a lawyer or having needed their services, I can't promise how it works. There are many conditions that are necessary for you to have the full protection of those laws, conditions like giving proper notice to your employer. For instance, you will be promoted as if you hadn't deployed during a deployment, but you must have properly told your employer about your upcoming deployment, been in good standing otherwise, and when you return, given your employer notice that you are back and will be available for work in a timely fashion (allowing for a transitional period to cool down after the deployment, if you choose).

So, reserve-component JAGs, you'll obviously help your soldiers with those laws, as well.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:54 am

Keithustus wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?


Essentially yes. There is a body of law that protects all servicemembersof the reserve components from discrimination in hiring, in advancement, from termination. They apply whether you're a cashier or a senior executive at your company. That's why I posted the link to Employer Support to the Guard and Reserve above. ESGR.org. But not being a lawyer or having needed their services, I can't promise how it works. There are many conditions that are necessary for you to have the full protection of those laws, conditions like giving proper notice to your employer. For instance, you will be promoted as if you hadn't deployed during a deployment, but you must have properly told your employer about your upcoming deployment, been in good standing otherwise, and when you return, given your employer notice that you are back and will be available for work in a timely fashion (allowing for a transitional period to cool down after the deployment, if you choose).

So, reserve-component JAGs, you'll obviously help your soldiers with those laws, as well.


Im applying active though, not reserve.

Pdk7
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:50 pm

spleenworship wrote:Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?


Thats the risk you're taking by applying to Active Duty.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:52 pm

Pdk7 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Question that may already have been answered in this thread, but what do you do if you get a job with a PDs office or something at EJW and then are selected for JAG? Just tell that employer "whoops, sorry!"?


Thats the risk you're taking by applying to Active Duty.


Man, talk about burning bridges behind you.

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:03 pm

Sounds completely normal for any application process. You weren't only trying to get an offer from one office or firm, were you? Having applicants reject their offers is their risk for making offers to only the best applicants.

Pdk7
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:08 pm

Keithustus wrote:Sounds completely normal for any application process. You weren't only trying to get an offer from one office or firm, were you? Having applicants reject their offers is their risk for making offers to only the best applicants.


Thats also a good point. And its one of the reason why JAG (at least Army) is so selective. They want to make sure the people to whom they extend offers are serious about taking the job and aren't just trying to cover their bases.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Military Law

Postby ScottRiqui » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:15 pm

Keithustus wrote:Sounds completely normal for any application process. You weren't only trying to get an offer from one office or firm, were you? Having applicants reject their offers is their risk for making offers to only the best applicants.


I don't think he's talking about rejecting an offer - I think he's talking about starting the job, and then quitting if he gets picked up for AD.

My thinking is that you should give as much notice as you can, but if you go active duty, it'll be at least several years before you're job hunting in the civilian market again. At that point, the potential damage from leaving your last civilian job will be pretty minimal; employers know that people have to work while waiting to find out if they've been accepted for military service, and that when they *do* get accepted, they often need to make the transition right away.

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:24 pm

ScottRiqui wrote:I don't think he's talking about rejecting an offer - I think he's talking about starting the job, and then quitting if he gets picked up for AD.


Curious, is the process by which one receives word of their acceptance into a JAG program not at all similar to applying to civilian positions during 3L and immediately after?

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:49 pm

Keithustus wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:I don't think he's talking about rejecting an offer - I think he's talking about starting the job, and then quitting if he gets picked up for AD.


Curious, is the process by which one receives word of their acceptance into a JAG program not at all similar to applying to civilian positions during 3L and immediately after?


I could get a on offer in a few weeks for a job next fall with a DAs office or firm... Then get selected in January for AD and pass all the medical stuff and whatnot and finally know for sure I'm going to be a JA as late as June.


ETA: or even September or October if I'm an alternate who needs a waiver. At least, this is my understanding.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:31 pm

Keithustus wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:I don't think he's talking about rejecting an offer - I think he's talking about starting the job, and then quitting if he gets picked up for AD.


Curious, is the process by which one receives word of their acceptance into a JAG program not at all similar to applying to civilian positions during 3L and immediately after?


The Yoda-esque syntax here has me a little confused.

Are you asking about how we get notified of acceptance in the JAG Corps? At least in the Air Force, the SJA that conducted the interview will call you once the results are official. From there, the wheels start turning with JAX and the accessions process (MEPS and all that other fun stuff).

buckyj420
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Re: Military Law

Postby buckyj420 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:08 pm

I was wondering if any of you might be willing to review my motivational statement. I don't want to muddy the waters here so if your willing I have posted it in a separate thread:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=214451

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:11 pm

Keithustus wrote:It would be a grade reduction because in the Army, JAG is a completely separate branch from most of the officer branches with which civilians are familiar: infantry, armor, logistics, ordnance, etc. If an officer wishes to change to JAG (or the chaplain corps or become an Army doctor), they must end their original commission and earn a new one in those fields. Rank at the start of service for those branches is determined by civilian education and experience. Lawyers just out of law school are O-1s or -2s and typically become O-3 during their first assignment after completing the JAG basic school. I start law school this month, and when I graduate, I likely will have already have become an O-4. I've been told that it doesn't work that way in the Marines, though, but I don't think I've met a Marine JAG before so can't personally confirm. I've been told that in the Navy, they're O-1 once they graduate law school and pin O-2 they day they arrive for JAG school.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:16 pm

[quote="Esquire]You have no idea what you're talking about.[/quote]

I had been told it works like the Chaplain and Medical Corps, as that process has been explained to me by Chaplains and doctors who have gone through that process. Not wanting to become a JAG, it never concerned me to confirm the second-hand accounts.

Maybe you'd like to help us all out?

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Keithustus wrote:
Esquire wrote:You have no idea what you're talking about.


I had been told it works like the Chaplain and Medical Corps, as that process has been explained to me by Chaplains and doctors who have gone through that process. Not wanting to become a JAG, it never concerned me to confirm the second-hand accounts.

Maybe you'd like to help us all out?

You should just recant your speculation and assumptions that you keep posting as facts.

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:47 pm

Esquire wrote: You should just recant your speculation and assumptions that you keep posting as facts.


Perhaps you're assuming that people will take words out of context, which is their fault. You should just recant your dismissal and refusal to help readers of this forum, and find relevant facts, if you know how to find any, such as the following:

Persons receiving original appointments as Reserve officers of the Army with assignment to the JAGC will be appointed in the
highest grade entitled under 10 USC 3359 as follows:

Appointment grades
Commissioned Service Credit: 3 years or more, but less than 7 years
Appointment Grade: First Lieutenant
Commissioned Service Credit: 7 years or more, but less than 14 years
Appointment Grade: Captain
Commissioned Service Credit: 14 years or more, but less than 21 years
Appointment Grade: Major
Commissioned Service Credit: 21 years or more, but less than 23 years
Appointment Grade: Lieutenant Colonel
Commissioned Service Credit: 23 years or more
Appointment Grade: Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel as determined by HQDA.

Notes:
In determining the appointment grade of a prospective JAGC officer, the years of commissioned service credit will be the sum of all credit awarded for constructive service credit and prior commissioned service under paragraphs (2), (3), and (4) below. A period of time will be counted only once when computing credit. Qualifying periods of less than one full year will be proportionately credited.

Constructive service credit will be computed and awarded as follows:
Constructive service credit
Qualifications: (a) Award of the first professional law degree (J.D. or LL.B) by a law school accredited by the American Bar Association
(ABA) at the time the applicant received the degree.
Credit: 3 years
Qualifications: (b) Special legal experience in unusual cases, based on the needs of the Army command or activity to which the appointee will be assigned.
Credit: One–half year for each year of qualifying experience, up to a maximum of 3 years credit.

Notes:
Requests for such credit will accompany the application for appointment and will fully justify the unique needs of the command or activity and the special
qualifications of the person to be appointed. Periods spent in an active status or on AD may not be counted when computing constructive service credit.

Credit for prior commissioned service will be computed as follows:
Prior commissioned service credit
Qualifications: (a) Active duty commissioned service (other than as a commissioned warrant officer) to include periods of annual training or other active duty for training performed while a member of any component of the military services.
Credit: 1 year for each year of service
Qualifications: (b) Commissioned service (other than as a commissioned warrant officer) in an active status, while serving in any component of the military services, but not on extended active duty.
Credit: 1 year for each year of service


Excellent, so for anyone looking to switch to JAG, at least, you aren't categorically penalized for time spent in other branches/services, at least not to the extent as I had been told. (E.g. a 25-year old CPT who rebranches to JAG will not have enough years accrued to remain a CPT.)

Now if only someone who had actual knowledge of those matters, and not me who had only heard about it from unreliable sources and had to review the ARs myself, had provided that, the internet and the professional obligations of those seeking entry to or already members of a bar, would have worked.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:58 pm

I didn't refuse to help anyone. I just successfully tasked you out to prove yourself wrong. Now we have the right answer. There, I just helped everyone.

Pdk7
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:20 pm

Now if only someone who had actual knowledge of those matters, and not me who had only heard about it from unreliable sources and had to review the ARs myself, had provided that, the internet and the professional obligations of those seeking entry to or already members of a bar, would have worked.[/quote]


You're starting law school, and you're in a forum filled with lawyers or people who are pursuing the profession. One thing you should know about our profession is that you should always be looking up the facts and answers for yourself, to the extent possible, before relying on the words of others, reliable or unreliable. In fact, no matter what your source is, you should be doing your own research. You should be relying on word of mouth to point you in the right direction. Here in this forum we share advice derived from our own personal experiences, but you'll notice that most of us qualify our statements with "in my experience" or "I've heard" or links to the resources from which we get our information, as you have just done. You also need to learn to sift the information to determine what is useful or credible and what isn't before you make an assertion.

I say all that to say, don't blame us or the internet for not giving you the information you wanted. You're going to be a lawyer. You need to learn how to find it yourself. Which is what I think Esquire was trying to get you to see.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:10 pm

Hey all, I need some advice.

In 98 I dropped out of UG because of financial reasons. I was non-scholarship Navy ROTC. I tried to join the Army and was DQ'd. I didn't know about waivers and my recruiter... I dunno, maybe after I refused to lie like he asked he didn't want to put more effort in, who knows. Anyway, so... I know I need a sentence or two explaining the drop out. But regarding my DQ:

For my essays for Army and Navy (not USCG which has a two page essay and who does MEPS first rendering this question moot) how much, if at all, should I go into that? I don't want them to prejudge me for needing a waiver, but I also go into wanting to serve my whole life and it might look odd to not mention a prior attempt.

What do y'all think?

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:56 pm

spleenworship wrote:Hey all, I need some advice.

In 98 I dropped out of UG because of financial reasons. I was non-scholarship Navy ROTC. I tried to join the Army and was DQ'd. I didn't know about waivers and my recruiter... I dunno, maybe after I refused to lie like he asked he didn't want to put more effort in, who knows. Anyway, so... I know I need a sentence or two explaining the drop out. But regarding my DQ:

For my essays for Army and Navy (not USCG which has a two page essay and who does MEPS first rendering this question moot) how much, if at all, should I go into that? I don't want them to prejudge me for needing a waiver, but I also go into wanting to serve my whole life and it might look odd to not mention a prior attempt.

What do y'all think?



I would not mention it at all. You are looking for them to offer you a commission. If and when you get the offer, there may be a time when you need to go into it, possibly at MEPS, but not necessarily. Absolutely never lie. Absolutely never leave out a critical fact if it pertains to the question that is being asked. However, there is no need to volunteer information that can only hurt you at this stage.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:47 pm

NavyJAG1 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Hey all, I need some advice.

In 98 I dropped out of UG because of financial reasons. I was non-scholarship Navy ROTC. I tried to join the Army and was DQ'd. I didn't know about waivers and my recruiter... I dunno, maybe after I refused to lie like he asked he didn't want to put more effort in, who knows. Anyway, so... I know I need a sentence or two explaining the drop out. But regarding my DQ:

For my essays for Army and Navy (not USCG which has a two page essay and who does MEPS first rendering this question moot) how much, if at all, should I go into that? I don't want them to prejudge me for needing a waiver, but I also go into wanting to serve my whole life and it might look odd to not mention a prior attempt.

What do y'all think?



I would not mention it at all. You are looking for them to offer you a commission. If and when you get the offer, there may be a time when you need to go into it, possibly at MEPS, but not necessarily. Absolutely never lie. Absolutely never leave out a critical fact if it pertains to the question that is being asked. However, there is no need to volunteer information that can only hurt you at this stage.


Good point. Now I just have to figure out how to explain 15 years of not joining a service. They're going to wonder "why now?" when they read my application. Hmmm...




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