Military Law

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:07 am

What, no Bradley Manning discussion? I guess there must be another thread for that.

I've been lurking this thread for awhile but don't think it will be of much use to me. You all mostly to be talking about JAGging whereas I have been in the military for some time and absolutely will not go JAG (pay/rank reduction) but am planning on studying homeland/national security law, and then find some cool position for that somewhere. Any way you can persuade me to keep following this thread? If not this should be retired to "JAGs and JAG Applications" or some such rather than "military law".

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Military Law

Postby ScottRiqui » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:43 pm

Keithustus wrote:What, no Bradley Manning discussion? I guess there must be another thread for that.

I've been lurking this thread for awhile but don't think it will be of much use to me. You all mostly to be talking about JAGging whereas I have been in the military for some time and absolutely will not go JAG (pay/rank reduction) but am planning on studying homeland/national security law, and then find some cool position for that somewhere. Any way you can persuade me to keep following this thread? If not this should be retired to "JAGs and JAG Applications" or some such rather than "military law".


--ImageRemoved--

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:47 pm

spleenworship wrote:Pics for JAG Apps... Serious, no smiling I assume? I'm getting them taken today.

I might be late on this, but either should be fine. I went the serious route, but I don't think it matters. I've seen pictures of selectees, and there is a broad range.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:39 pm

Keithustus wrote:I've been lurking this thread for awhile but don't think it will be of much use to me. You all mostly to be talking about JAGging whereas I have been in the military for some time and absolutely will not go JAG (pay/rank reduction) but am planning on studying homeland/national security law, and then find some cool position for that somewhere. Any way you can persuade me to keep following this thread? If not this should be retired to "JAGs and JAG Applications" or some such rather than "military law".

We've been waiting for your arrival, Neo.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:27 pm

howell wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Pics for JAG Apps... Serious, no smiling I assume? I'm getting them taken today.

I might be late on this, but either should be fine. I went the serious route, but I don't think it matters. I've seen pictures of selectees, and there is a broad range.


Yea, I don't think it matters. I had a smile with mine.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:36 pm

Keithustus wrote:What, no Bradley Manning discussion? I guess there must be another thread for that.

I've been lurking this thread for awhile but don't think it will be of much use to me. You all mostly to be talking about JAGging whereas I have been in the military for some time and absolutely will not go JAG (pay/rank reduction) but am planning on studying homeland/national security law, and then find some cool position for that somewhere. Any way you can persuade me to keep following this thread? If not this should be retired to "JAGs and JAG Applications" or some such rather than "military law".


I'm sorry we have disappointed you.

On you road to finding some cool position for that somewhere, you might find these more your speed:

http://www.caaflog.com/

http://www.lawfareblog.com/

Great reads. For those looking to go into military justice, you cannot beat CAAFlog.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:37 pm

Ha, nicely played.

So honestly, you don't actually talk about any actual military law issues in this thread? It's just about becoming a JAG? Some of you must be taking some Law and War, International Law, etc. courses that are worth discussing, yes?

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LSATmakesMeNeurotic
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Re: Military Law

Postby LSATmakesMeNeurotic » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:40 pm

Keithustus wrote:Ha, nicely played.

So honestly, you don't actually talk about any actual military law issues in this thread? It's just about becoming a JAG? Some of you must be taking some Law and War, International Law, etc. courses that are worth discussing, yes?


Might I suggest creating a thread in the lounge?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:41 pm

spleenworship wrote:Pics for JAG Apps... Serious, no smiling I assume? I'm getting them taken today.


I've seen both smiling and serious. I'm pretty sure I smiled in mine. I think the safest answer if you are a guy is to go serious but no one is going to get a rejection letter solely on account of smiling.

I go through this every time I have to get an updated official bio photo.

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:48 pm

LSATmakesMeNeurotic wrote:
Keithustus wrote:So honestly, you don't actually talk about any actual military law issues in this thread? It's just about becoming a JAG? Some of you must be taking some Law and War, International Law, etc. courses that are worth discussing, yes?


Might I suggest creating a thread in the lounge?


Thank you, Neurotic, for being the one sane, reasonable person here. I'll look around the site more, find that lounge, and maybe find what im really looking for: military law (not military accessions). You being the only one to provide information and advice is some excellent irony, both because of your name and because JAGs especially are expected to be sane and reasonable. Good luck to all others on your applications.

Edit: and Thank you, Patrick, too! I didn't see your detailed post because of when the comments were being written versus posted.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:16 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Keithustus wrote:What, no Bradley Manning discussion? I guess there must be another thread for that.

I've been lurking this thread for awhile but don't think it will be of much use to me. You all mostly to be talking about JAGging whereas I have been in the military for some time and absolutely will not go JAG (pay/rank reduction) but am planning on studying homeland/national security law, and then find some cool position for that somewhere. Any way you can persuade me to keep following this thread? If not this should be retired to "JAGs and JAG Applications" or some such rather than "military law".


I'm sorry we have disappointed you. I thought we were doing okay with the thread as this is a law school student forum and not ForeignPolicy.com.

On you road to finding some cool position for that somewhere, you might find these more your speed:

http://www.caaflog.com/

http://www.lawfareblog.com/

Great reads. For those looking to go into military justice, you cannot beat CAAFlog.


I like caaflog. I just noticed the recent analysis of Kastenberg. Good stuff.

I would also add to this list:

http://tjaglcs-adc.blogspot.com/
Last edited by bouakedojo on Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:22 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
spleenworship wrote:Pics for JAG Apps... Serious, no smiling I assume? I'm getting them taken today.


I've seen both smiling and serious. I'm pretty sure I smiled in mine. I think the safest answer if you are a guy is to go serious but no one is going to get a rejection letter solely on account of smiling.

I go through this every time I have to get an updated official bio photo.


I went with both and had them send them to me. The smiling ones looked... Really bad. So I'm going with serious. I look bad in both IMO, but at least the serious ones don't look goofy. The smiling ones looked super duper goofy.

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FlanAl
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Re: Military Law

Postby FlanAl » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:47 am

Its been a long time since I posted in this thread. i got pretty discouraged after going to the navy recruiter after 1L and basically being told I had no shot (leg injury that slightly effects my physical capabilities plus some drug experimentation in college). Since then I have switched my career focus but am still eager to serve and was wondering if anyone knew if the National Guard was more flexible with who they take and how people have managed to do the 11 week training program in virginia without messing with the start dates for their civilian jobs. Is anyone on this thread doing national guard and working as like a DA etc.?

This thread was super helpful when I was looking for information on full time military careers and I want to thank you guys for all of your helpful insight.

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:42 am

FlanAl wrote:if anyone knew if the National Guard was more flexible with who they take and how people have managed to do the 11 week...


I was talking with my brigade JAG a few months ago about some other issues and some of what you're asking came up. First, in general, no, ARNG is not less selective. (We did not discuss ANG.) The biggest concern, though, is that ARNG units really prefer to assign those duty positions to JAGs who are coming off active duty rather than fill them with fresh law-school graduates. Reason: ARNG JAG roles and responsibilities do teach you about ROE and those areas, but it is far more difficult in ARNG to become competent at UCMJ and other punishment options compared to JAGs on active duty. So you may be able to find a position in ARNG, yes, but they probably wouldn't select you unless there are no alternate candidates coming off active duty who also want that slot.

As to the JAG basic course, guess what? You're joining the military. One weekend per month, two weeks in the summer, and deployments. And that's after you've got yourself job qualified by attending an officer basic course (or whatever they're called these days). There is flexibility in when you attend the school: select dates that work for your schedule. But you still must go, since you are nearly useless to your commander without attending. Dealing with job and family while also fulfilling your service obligation is one of the fun, unique challenges of the reserve components.

Lastly, you may want to look into Navy Reserves, Marine Corps Reserves, and Army Reserves. Unlike National Guard (Army and Air Force), they may be a better place to get exposure to the daily UCMJ lifestyle critical to a JAG, since they are controlled by the federal government, not states.

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FlanAl
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Re: Military Law

Postby FlanAl » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:06 pm

Yeah, I was mostly just wondering if civilian employers are usually cool with a deferred start date so that you can go to VA for the 11 week training they talk about on their website.
Thanks for the info!

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:16 pm

Ah, I see. In that case...

1) depends on the employer, and

2) if your employer baulks, http://www.ESGR.mil. But it would be ironic for a lawyer to work for a place where ESGR support was necessary.

Pdk7
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:04 pm

FYI: Army has just opened up the applications for the FY 14 active duty and internship applications.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:19 pm

Pdk7 wrote:FYI: Army has just opened up the applications for the FY 14 active duty and internship applications.


Damn! I just checked three hours ago, lol, and didn't see anything!

Thanks man! Now I can get on that!

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FlanAl
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Re: Military Law

Postby FlanAl » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:27 pm

Thanks for the responses Keithustus

Any idea whether or not it would be ok to go into an OCI interview with Army and ask about reserves? I have no idea what the culture is like regarding applying for active vs. reserve. I did see earlier on the thread that Army reserve is probably the least selective for people trying to get JAG, anyone know if there is any truth to this?

Also, I'll be a 3L and gunning for public defender work as my civilian job, which I think would translate pretty well. The main question is if I get an offer to start work on say 10/1 from a PD office, can I come back later and say "that offer is great but I can't start until spring because of my reserve training" and they can't do anything about it?

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FlanAl
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Re: Military Law

Postby FlanAl » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:35 pm

Also, I was checking this out on auto admit and was wondering if anyone here could translate "you need to check out the LSO map on the JARO site" into lay speak for me. thanks!

Pdk7
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:45 am

spleenworship wrote:
Pdk7 wrote:FYI: Army has just opened up the applications for the FY 14 active duty and internship applications.


Damn! I just checked three hours ago, lol, and didn't see anything!

Thanks man! Now I can get on that!



Good luck!

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:27 pm

Pdk7 wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Pdk7 wrote:FYI: Army has just opened up the applications for the FY 14 active duty and internship applications.


Damn! I just checked three hours ago, lol, and didn't see anything!

Thanks man! Now I can get on that!



Good luck!



I'm waiting on a transcript from a community college. Ugh. They only mail them. No PDF, no express. And I had to go in in person to request it. Thank goodness I don't live in another city!

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Moves like JAGger
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Re: Military Law

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:49 pm

Keithustus wrote:What, no Bradley Manning discussion? I guess there must be another thread for that.

I've been lurking this thread for awhile but don't think it will be of much use to me. You all mostly to be talking about JAGging whereas I have been in the military for some time and absolutely will not go JAG (pay/rank reduction) but am planning on studying homeland/national security law, and then find some cool position for that somewhere. Any way you can persuade me to keep following this thread? If not this should be retired to "JAGs and JAG Applications" or some such rather than "military law".


You must be a flag officer, then? Otherwise I'm confused why JAG would be a pay/rank reduction?

Also -- you are surprised that law students on a forum devoted to law schools would be discussing JAG in a thread entitled Military Law?

Let me guess, you're in intelligence?

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Keithustus
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Re: Military Law

Postby Keithustus » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:22 pm

Hmmm....so many assumptions.

It would be a grade reduction because in the Army, JAG is a completely separate branch from most of the officer branches with which civilians are familiar: infantry, armor, logistics, ordnance, etc. If an officer wishes to change to JAG (or the chaplain corps or become an Army doctor), they must end their original commission and earn a new one in those fields. Rank at the start of service for those branches is determined by civilian education and experience. Lawyers just out of law school are O-1s or -2s and typically become O-3 during their first assignment after completing the JAG basic school. I start law school this month, and when I graduate, I likely will have already have become an O-4. I've been told that it doesn't work that way in the Marines, though, but I don't think I've met a Marine JAG before so can't personally confirm. I've been told that in the Navy, they're O-1 once they graduate law school and pin O-2 they day they arrive for JAG school.

I am not surprised that there is discussion about becoming JAGs in here. I am surprised that there seems so little else. This thread is named "military law", after all, and becoming a JAG is only the tiniest and most insignificant part of a discussion of military law. There should be questions and discussions about various rules of engagement, current events in the military law world (hence why I couldn't believe there were no posts about the Manning judgment), the various international agreements and which countries abide by which ones, etc. If TLS is made almost exclusively of folks still in law school with little or no actual military law experience, then I guess it makes sense, with the exception that these issues must arise sometimes out of upper-level courses aimed toward this audience.

Intelligence officer? No, those guys are fun, but I was never drawn to it. Field-training at the MI school is literally spent in a parking lot.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Military Law

Postby ScottRiqui » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:55 pm

Keithustus wrote:
It would be a grade reduction because in the Army, JAG is a completely separate branch from most of the officer branches with which civilians are familiar: infantry, armor, logistics, ordnance, etc. If an officer wishes to change to JAG (or the chaplain corps or become an Army doctor), they must end their original commission and earn a new one in those fields.


I promise you that you wouldn't be reduced in rank from an O-3 or O-4 to an O-1 or O-2 if you re-branch to JAG, especially if you're still on active duty while attending law school. That just doesn't happen. In fact, I think the statutes expressly prohibit resigning a commission and then re-commissioning at a lower pay grade.

Post-WWII, the only time an officer can be non-punitively reduced in rank is in the special case of retiring 3- and 4-star flag officers. Retiring as a 3- or 4-star requires Congressional approval, so without that approval it's possible that an active-duty O-9 or O-10 might have to retire as an O-8.
Last edited by ScottRiqui on Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.




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