Military Law

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andythefir
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Re: Military Law

Postby andythefir » Fri May 24, 2013 2:06 pm

ALeal90 wrote:
bouakedojo wrote:
ALeal90 wrote: Do you mean 3 GLP candidates nationwide? I am taking a gap year. Anything you suggest doing to prepare besides getting in tip top shape?


In my interview for the OYCP being in top shape didn't seem to matter at all. They ask for a picture in a suit to make sure you don't have weight problems but other than that it didn't seem to make any difference.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri May 24, 2013 7:08 pm

andythefir wrote:
ALeal90 wrote:
bouakedojo wrote:
ALeal90 wrote: Do you mean 3 GLP candidates nationwide? I am taking a gap year. Anything you suggest doing to prepare besides getting in tip top shape?


In my interview for the OYCP being in top shape didn't seem to matter at all. They ask for a picture in a suit to make sure you don't have weight problems but other than that it didn't seem to make any difference.


Just my $.02 as I procrastinate in writing some motions:

Some there may be some SJAs that do not care about fitness but there are a lot that do. Given the four SJAs I've worked for, three put physical fitness (to include the fitness appearance of applicants) toward the top of their list. This also applies to the selection board that makes the ultimate decision - even if the SJA is laid back, one of the three on the panel may not.

While the photo is an easy screen for the true fatties, it is also pretty easy to tell folks that are athletic versus those that are just in acceptable shape. With highly competitive selection and with fitness being 100% in an applicant’s control, my recommendation remains to look/be as fit as possible.

In respect to GLP selection: 3 folks were selected, total, from the lot of applicants that applied for the annual GLP/OYCP board.

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Young Marino
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Re: Military Law

Postby Young Marino » Fri May 24, 2013 11:56 pm

Wow. So should I start to gear up for a career in the private sector now? lol. Outside of graduating top ten percent in my class in undergrad with honors, writing a thesis, working on the Obama campaign and serving as the secretary of an advisory board in my local government I don't have much else to offer. I mean I do have few years of general work experience but nothing serious. I imagine those candidates selected for GLP had resumes superior to mine.. Is there anything I can do from now to August 2014 that would help? Maybe join USAF reserves?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat May 25, 2013 2:19 pm

ALeal90 wrote:Wow. So should I start to gear up for a career in the private sector now? lol. Outside of graduating top ten percent in my class in undergrad with honors, writing a thesis, working on the Obama campaign and serving as the secretary of an advisory board in my local government I don't have much else to offer. I mean I do have few years of general work experience but nothing serious. I imagine those candidates selected for GLP had resumes superior to mine.. Is there anything I can do from now to August 2014 that would help? Maybe join USAF reserves?


Your undergrad background is solid and shows some connection/interest in public service. That is good. I cannot hazard any guesses in terms of how competitive you will be for GLP - when you have fewer than five folks selected from a pool of hundreds, there are going to be some arbitrary decisions made. You can make an analogy to an AUSA or fed district clerk position - everyone is smart and well credentialed from the get go. Your stats were solid enough to get you into law school - now the "reset" button gets pushed and you have to distinguish yourself from your new peers, who are all going to be smart and competitive.

Some selected for GLP are prior service, either officer or enlisted. Some were college athletes. Some have other advanced degrees. Some have spent significant time in DOD or other Fed positions as a civilian. Everyone applying for these positions are going to have a great resume, so stop stressing out if your resume is better/worse. Everyone brings something different in respect to strengths/weaknesses.

Stay involved with public service, in whatever form that takes. Ideally, you can get linked up with USAO/local DA or Public Defender as a volunteer, where you can also gain some sense of litigation experience along the way.

Also, start managing your expectations early. It is great that you are proactively working on your GLP application but the odds are against you, and everyone else, for selection. That should not dissuade you - someone is going to be among those three selects, but have a well researched “Plan B” for your 1L summer, along with your OYCP application and Summer Intern application for your 2L. There are a number of folks on this board that went through 4+ application cycles for DAP prior to selection – that is over a year of multiple rejections.

Good luck.

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Young Marino
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Re: Military Law

Postby Young Marino » Sat May 25, 2013 6:25 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
ALeal90 wrote:Wow. So should I start to gear up for a career in the private sector now? lol. Outside of graduating top ten percent in my class in undergrad with honors, writing a thesis, working on the Obama campaign and serving as the secretary of an advisory board in my local government I don't have much else to offer. I mean I do have few years of general work experience but nothing serious. I imagine those candidates selected for GLP had resumes superior to mine.. Is there anything I can do from now to August 2014 that would help? Maybe join USAF reserves?


Your undergrad background is solid and shows some connection/interest in public service. That is good. I cannot hazard any guesses in terms of how competitive you will be for GLP - when you have fewer than five folks selected from a pool of hundreds, there are going to be some arbitrary decisions made. You can make an analogy to an AUSA or fed district clerk position - everyone is smart and well credentialed from the get go. Your stats were solid enough to get you into law school - now the "reset" button gets pushed and you have to distinguish yourself from your new peers, who are all going to be smart and competitive.

Some selected for GLP are prior service, either officer or enlisted. Some were college athletes. Some have other advanced degrees. Some have spent significant time in DOD or other Fed positions as a civilian. Everyone applying for these positions are going to have a great resume, so stop stressing out if your resume is better/worse. Everyone brings something different in respect to strengths/weaknesses.

Stay involved with public service, in whatever form that takes. Ideally, you can get linked up with USAO/local DA or Public Defender as a volunteer, where you can also gain some sense of litigation experience along the way.

Also, start managing your expectations early. It is great that you are proactively working on your GLP application but the odds are against you, and everyone else, for selection. That should not dissuade you - someone is going to be among those three selects, but have a well researched “Plan B” for your 1L summer, along with your OYCP application and Summer Intern application for your 2L. There are a number of folks on this board that went through 4+ application cycles for DAP prior to selection – that is over a year of multiple rejections.

Good luck.


Thanks Patrick. One more question: if I decide to go to a TTT with no air force or military affiliation am I put at a disadvantage when applying for internships and DAP?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat May 25, 2013 9:02 pm

ALeal90 wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
ALeal90 wrote:Wow. So should I start to gear up for a career in the private sector now? lol. Outside of graduating top ten percent in my class in undergrad with honors, writing a thesis, working on the Obama campaign and serving as the secretary of an advisory board in my local government I don't have much else to offer. I mean I do have few years of general work experience but nothing serious. I imagine those candidates selected for GLP had resumes superior to mine.. Is there anything I can do from now to August 2014 that would help? Maybe join USAF reserves?


Your undergrad background is solid and shows some connection/interest in public service. That is good. I cannot hazard any guesses in terms of how competitive you will be for GLP - when you have fewer than five folks selected from a pool of hundreds, there are going to be some arbitrary decisions made. You can make an analogy to an AUSA or fed district clerk position - everyone is smart and well credentialed from the get go. Your stats were solid enough to get you into law school - now the "reset" button gets pushed and you have to distinguish yourself from your new peers, who are all going to be smart and competitive.

Some selected for GLP are prior service, either officer or enlisted. Some were college athletes. Some have other advanced degrees. Some have spent significant time in DOD or other Fed positions as a civilian. Everyone applying for these positions are going to have a great resume, so stop stressing out if your resume is better/worse. Everyone brings something different in respect to strengths/weaknesses.

Stay involved with public service, in whatever form that takes. Ideally, you can get linked up with USAO/local DA or Public Defender as a volunteer, where you can also gain some sense of litigation experience along the way.

Also, start managing your expectations early. It is great that you are proactively working on your GLP application but the odds are against you, and everyone else, for selection. That should not dissuade you - someone is going to be among those three selects, but have a well researched “Plan B” for your 1L summer, along with your OYCP application and Summer Intern application for your 2L. There are a number of folks on this board that went through 4+ application cycles for DAP prior to selection – that is over a year of multiple rejections.

Good luck.


Thanks Patrick. One more question: if I decide to go to a TTT with no air force or military affiliation am I put at a disadvantage when applying for internships and DAP?


I’m not sure what you mean by Air Force or military affiliation. If you mean proximity to a military installation – no, there is no disadvantage in the direct sense of the term. You will not lose points in selection by attending the Lionel Hutz School of Law which is a six hour drive from the nearest base/fort/camp/station. That said, it is always easier to put together volunteer part-time internships or other opportunities when you are within driving distance.

If you mean affiliation in terms of a “feeder” school that puts a lot of graduates into the various JAG Corps or one that is “pro” military, I’m not aware of any such schools (maybe Texas Tech – I swear half of that faculty are retired JAG Full Birds and GOs). You’ll find a lot of law schools, or at least elements therein, are not terribly fond of the military. I was fortunate to find some incredibly supportive folks in my school’s faculty and administration and an equally amazing LRAP program to boot, but I do not expect that is all too common.

There is no stigma associated with the ol “TTT” status in the JAG Corps. Law school rank has no bearing on selection. I review the selection lists for each board and remain amazed at the diversity of law schools we bring in. It yields great results too – some of the best trial and appellate litigators I have worked with have not come from T-14 or even T1 backgrounds. Once accepted, you’ll sink or swim entirely on your own.

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Young Marino
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Re: Military Law

Postby Young Marino » Sun May 26, 2013 2:53 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
ALeal90 wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
ALeal90 wrote:Wow. So should I start to gear up for a career in the private sector now? lol. Outside of graduating top ten percent in my class in undergrad with honors, writing a thesis, working on the Obama campaign and serving as the secretary of an advisory board in my local government I don't have much else to offer. I mean I do have few years of general work experience but nothing serious. I imagine those candidates selected for GLP had resumes superior to mine.. Is there anything I can do from now to August 2014 that would help? Maybe join USAF reserves?


Your undergrad background is solid and shows some connection/interest in public service. That is good. I cannot hazard any guesses in terms of how competitive you will be for GLP - when you have fewer than five folks selected from a pool of hundreds, there are going to be some arbitrary decisions made. You can make an analogy to an AUSA or fed district clerk position - everyone is smart and well credentialed from the get go. Your stats were solid enough to get you into law school - now the "reset" button gets pushed and you have to distinguish yourself from your new peers, who are all going to be smart and competitive.

Some selected for GLP are prior service, either officer or enlisted. Some were college athletes. Some have other advanced degrees. Some have spent significant time in DOD or other Fed positions as a civilian. Everyone applying for these positions are going to have a great resume, so stop stressing out if your resume is better/worse. Everyone brings something different in respect to strengths/weaknesses.

Stay involved with public service, in whatever form that takes. Ideally, you can get linked up with USAO/local DA or Public Defender as a volunteer, where you can also gain some sense of litigation experience along the way.

Also, start managing your expectations early. It is great that you are proactively working on your GLP application but the odds are against you, and everyone else, for selection. That should not dissuade you - someone is going to be among those three selects, but have a well researched “Plan B” for your 1L summer, along with your OYCP application and Summer Intern application for your 2L. There are a number of folks on this board that went through 4+ application cycles for DAP prior to selection – that is over a year of multiple rejections.

Good luck.


Thanks Patrick. One more question: if I decide to go to a TTT with no air force or military affiliation am I put at a disadvantage when applying for internships and DAP?


I’m not sure what you mean by Air Force or military affiliation. If you mean proximity to a military installation – no, there is no disadvantage in the direct sense of the term. You will not lose points in selection by attending the Lionel Hutz School of Law which is a six hour drive from the nearest base/fort/camp/station. That said, it is always easier to put together volunteer part-time internships or other opportunities when you are within driving distance.

If you mean affiliation in terms of a “feeder” school that puts a lot of graduates into the various JAG Corps or one that is “pro” military, I’m not aware of any such schools (maybe Texas Tech – I swear half of that faculty are retired JAG Full Birds and GOs). You’ll find a lot of law schools, or at least elements therein, are not terribly fond of the military. I was fortunate to find some incredibly supportive folks in my school’s faculty and administration and an equally amazing LRAP program to boot, but I do not expect that is all too common.

There is no stigma associated with the ol “TTT” status in the JAG Corps. Law school rank has no bearing on selection. I review the selection lists for each board and remain amazed at the diversity of law schools we bring in. It yields great results too – some of the best trial and appellate litigators I have worked with have not come from T-14 or even T1 backgrounds. Once accepted, you’ll sink or swim entirely on your own.


Again Mr. Bateman, you have helped immensely. What I meant by "affiliation" is my target school has an rotc detachment on it's campus while the other TTT school I am considering does not and does not have a cross town agreement with any school doing usaf rotc. Therefore, I wanted to know if attending the latter would put me at a disadvantage since there is no military detachment. However, both schools are located fairly close to where I am living now and the nearest air force base is with an hour and a half .. I guess during my gap year I can go check it out and see if there is any volunteer work I can do on the base assisting the jags or even shadowing a jag for one day a week or something. Just to ask because the worst they can say is no. Of course, I plan to continue serving my community on the advisory board but does this sound like a proactive approach?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon May 27, 2013 10:45 am

I do not know GLP/OYCP well enough to discuss the specifics but I am fairly certain you are required to drill with a local ROTC detachment throughout. The local ROTC Det Commander has to provide a letter that he/she will take you on – that is included with your application package. Without a ROTC det, you are not doing GLP/OYCP.

They do not have to be a part of the college/university to which your law school is attached – you can attend Lionel Hutz School of Law but work with the Barry Zuckercorn University AFROTC Detachment across town. I worked with a Havard Law guy who had to drill with the MIT AFROTC Det because progressive Harvard did not have/allow any ROTC detachments on campus at the time.

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Young Marino
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Re: Military Law

Postby Young Marino » Mon May 27, 2013 11:50 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:I do not know GLP/OYCP well enough to discuss the specifics but I am fairly certain you are required to drill with a local ROTC detachment throughout. The local ROTC Det Commander has to provide a letter that he/she will take you on – that is included with your application package. Without a ROTC det, you are not doing GLP/OYCP.

They do not have to be a part of the college/university to which your law school is attached – you can attend Lionel Hutz School of Law but work with the Barry Zuckercorn University AFROTC Detachment across town. I worked with a Havard Law guy who had to drill with the MIT AFROTC Det because progressive Harvard did not have/allow any ROTC detachments on campus at the time.


I understand that. But I'm considering perhaps going to a school without access to GLP program and trying my luck with OYCP (which I believe can be done through any university) and the internships. All depends on the amount of $$ each school offers. Would interacting with jags at the nearest base to me be a plus on my application or would it not even matter (I guess it would depend on if I developed a relationship and put one down as a reference)? From what you have told me, it seems like getting into GLP would be very difficult and I would hate to take on a lot more debt just to have access to the program that I may not even get into.. So I would definitely consider going to a TTT school without access to GLP if it means getting a significant discount on tuition especially if I can have access to OYCP and internship opportunities.

paul554
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Re: Military Law

Postby paul554 » Mon May 27, 2013 11:52 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:I do not know GLP/OYCP well enough to discuss the specifics but I am fairly certain you are required to drill with a local ROTC detachment throughout. The local ROTC Det Commander has to provide a letter that he/she will take you on – that is included with your application package. Without a ROTC det, you are not doing GLP/OYCP.

They do not have to be a part of the college/university to which your law school is attached – you can attend Lionel Hutz School of Law but work with the Barry Zuckercorn University AFROTC Detachment across town. I worked with a Havard Law guy who had to drill with the MIT AFROTC Det because progressive Harvard did not have/allow any ROTC detachments on campus at the time.


That's mostly correct I believe. MIT has a crosstown agreement with Harvard, this means there is no ROTC detachment on the campus but Harvard students can drill, and recieve credit, from the MIT location. If I remember right your law school must have at least a crosstown agreement for the GLP/OYCP program. So even if a university right next door has a huge ROTC detachment, your SOL if they don't have that agreement.

Runner2008
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Re: Military Law

Postby Runner2008 » Mon May 27, 2013 11:55 am

Naval ROTC and AF ROTC Harvard Cross-town affiliate is at MIT. The MIT units should be well-versed in working with cross-town students.

-Naval ROTC instructor

Runner2008
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Re: Military Law

Postby Runner2008 » Mon May 27, 2013 11:56 am

edit.
Last edited by Runner2008 on Sat May 23, 2015 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Young Marino
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Re: Military Law

Postby Young Marino » Mon May 27, 2013 11:58 am

Sorry just noticed what you said about ROTC=GLP, OYCP.. I have a lot to think about. Thanks again Mr. Bateman. You have been a huge help. I'll be contacting you soon.

sapper89
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Re: Military Law

Postby sapper89 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:02 am

This question is in regard to the Marine Corps' PLC-Law Program.

The information I have read about the program states that individuals commissioning through PLC-Law will receive constructive service credit for each year spent in law school prior to commissioning and that they will be promoted on schedule while attending law school. From this I gather that an individual earning a commission via PLC-Law will be a 1st Lieutenant with a minimum of (3) three years of service by the time they report to The Basic School. That being said they'd be eligible for Captain within a year.

I'm wondering if I am interpreting this right.

=============================================================================================================================
Should have just used google earlier...

1021.
CONSTRUCTIVE SERVICE CREDIT
1. If the Secretary of Defense determines that the number of
designated active duty Marine Corps judge advocates below the
grade of major are less than the numbers needed for the Marine
Corps, the Secretary of Defense may authorize the Secretary of
the Navy to credit any person receiving both an original
appointment and a judge advocate designation, with a period of
service credit.
2. Constructive service credit is credit, other than prior
commissioned service credit, which is granted for law school
attendance. It provides grade and date of rank comparability
for an officer who begins Marine Corps commissioned service
after obtaining a baccalaureate degree.
3. The Judge Advocate Support Branch of the Staff Judge
Advocate to the Commandant's office will coordinate with CMC
(MMPR), in accordance with MCO 1120.9, when determining whether
any constructive service credit is warranted.

So I guess it would depend on whenever you applied to the program.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:57 pm

Runner2008 wrote:Also, I posted this on another thread, but I think the 'Military Law' topic would have been more appropriate...

So I have a somewhat unique situation:

I am currently a Foreign Area/Field Artillery Officer in the military. I've just been posted to Marquette University as a ROTC instructor (bizarre chain of events led to this). I have wanted to attend law school for six years and now I have my chance (sort of). I say sort of because I think part-time law + full time job + juggling family commitments would probably not be much fun. Especially because my appointment here is supposed to be a break from the 4 year constant deployment cycle that I just left.

As a university faculty member, I can attend Marquette law part time for free. My faculty appointment is for three years, so if I attend the law school, I would most likely have to finance my last year of law school with the G.I. Bill/Yellow Ribbon program. Attending Marquette law now would DEFINITELY increase my chances for being selected for FLEP/ELP (JAG) as an active duty member as it would decrease the cost to the military by 2/3--they would only have to finance one year of school (although it is by no means a guaranteed)

If I am not selected for FLEP/ELP programs, and stay in the military I will not be able to finish my law degree and will have spent three years at school during which I could have gotten a free Master's degree in International Affairs to further bolster the Foreign Area Officer part of my career. The downside is that, regardless, my advanced degree would be coming from Marquette--a school that is not really well known for law OR political science. If I'm not picked up by FLEP/ELP and decide to get out to finish my law degree, now I'm in this abysmal job market with a degree from a not-great school. The up side is that I would have minimal debt and have the veteran boost for gov.'t jobs.

As much of an honor as its been, I am not excited at all about continuing as a combat arms guy. If I would be selected for FLEP/ELP, I would go from being Artillery/Foreign Area Officer to JAG/Foreign Area Officer.

At the end of the day, I'm making really good money as a 27 year old and love the camaraderie of the military. I do have a wife and dogs to support.

So I'm sort of at a cross roads:

Option 1: Go to Marquette law, hope for FLEP/ELP to finance the last year and have a job as a JAG. If not, waste three years of study for no degree, or get out, finish the one year for the degree, and fight the job market. (least opportunity cost btw).
Option 2: Get a Master's in IR, apply for FLEP/ELP when eligible for full three years benefits. Take the option to get a free masters a degree and quit whining about continuing a combat arms career and where your Master's is coming from--you get to do international shit for christsakes!
Option 3: Get a Master's in _________ for free at Marquette. Apply for FLEP/ELP when eligible for full three years benefits. If not selected, get out, use the ridiculously good benefits of the G.I. Bill (thank you tax payers) to finance law school at the highest ranked school possible. Look for a job. Potentially apply for JAG programs as a grad or another government entity.

Insight and input highly appreciated..


Are you set on doing your full 20 or could you go either way in respect to punching out?

Marquette is not a bad law school by any means but in terms of where it places most of its grads, you are looking at Milwaukee, Madison, and some spillover to Chicago. That really does not matter as much if you are going for Full Bird. If you are looking to go BigFed in DC, a smaller name school might hurt you at DOJ and the other highly selective jobs.

It is hard to turn down an almost free JD. That said, Option 3 gives you the most options and flexibility and with the GI Bill having your back, you likely won't be truly taking on more debt. With your experience thus far, you will have a great law school application package in terms of soft factors, but having a masters to add to that does not hurt at all either.

VetLaw14
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Re: Military Law

Postby VetLaw14 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:58 am

Anyone else gearing up for the Army Reserve Fall board? Also, has there been any update on the gap between selection and JAOBC? Thanks in advance!

VetLaw14
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:51 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby VetLaw14 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:50 pm

Also, has anyone see/heard of any change to the competitiveness of both the Active and Reserve component application process over the last 3-5 years? Thanks again!

thelawdoctor
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Re: Military Law

Postby thelawdoctor » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:22 pm

I noticed today an article about them digging up (or planning to anyways) a veteran from a veterans burial ground since he had a felony.
What the fuck?

I get the theory behind it, but it's still fucked up for several reasons.

1. What if you had the felony FIRST and THEN served? Are you somehow now less of a veteran due to having a waiver first? (they used to be more common)

2. If you have PTSD and do something stupid and then do your time and get help, did you somehow now not serve?

Anyone else think this is fucked up?

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:26 pm

.
Last edited by Myself on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

madspcdisease
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Re: Military Law

Postby madspcdisease » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:38 am

Some of the entitlement and naivety on this board is pretty amazing.

If many of you guys like the military so much, why don't you enlist and actually contribute something, as opposed to talking about how you can beef up your application by joining intramural sports teams or talking about how mommy and daddy served in the AF.

JAGGER
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Re: Military Law

Postby JAGGER » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:15 am

Guys, I was PR'd as an Alternate for Navy JAG recently. For anyone who is also going through the process and would like to share their experience, please PM me. I am also happy to answer any questions about the process for people who are interested in Navy JAG.

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LazinessPerSe
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Re: Military Law

Postby LazinessPerSe » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:50 pm

madspcdisease wrote:Some of the entitlement and naivety on this board is pretty amazing.

If many of you guys like the military so much, why don't you enlist and actually contribute something, as opposed to talking about how you can beef up your application by joining intramural sports teams or talking about how mommy and daddy served in the AF.


Why on earth would anyone interested in JAG ever enlist? Becoming an officer is not a guarantee, let alone a JAG. Furthermore, why on earth would anyone with a college degree ever enlist? It's better to go officer in another community than to go from College/Law degree to E1.

StevenJ11
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Re: Military Law

Postby StevenJ11 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:47 pm

I'm considering the army reserves too. What's the ballpark acceptance rate for the army reserve?

Myself
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:36 pm

.

Postby Myself » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:43 pm

.
Last edited by Myself on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

thelawdoctor
Posts: 416
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Re: Military Law

Postby thelawdoctor » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:29 pm

StevenJ11 wrote:I'm considering the army reserves too. What's the ballpark acceptance rate for the army reserve?

?????

There are a lot of variables to consider.

Do you only want to go JAG for starters? What age? What height/weight? etc,etc,




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