Military Law

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:55 pm

Esquire wrote:This thread needs to evolve. It used to be about being accepted into the JAG program. The vast, vast majority of that information has been disseminated and reiterated. At its inception, many of us were clueless. But together, we pieced together thoughts, hearsay, and more recently, our own firsthand evidence. We've done a lot to demystify the JAG Corps. This thread really is the definitive JAG book.

Now, let's start talking about the career itself. And, more importantly, post career options. You'd be shortsighted to not consider this information before accepting a commission. Does anyone have any idea what JAGs do post JAG Corps?

I'm fairly new so I don't know too many who have transitioned to the civilian sector. The ones I personally know who have retired are O5s and O6s. They took a federal position with the EPA and IG. My secondhand information is that government positions are definitely possible. For younger O3s and O4s. Be it DA, DOJ. I've also heard many JAGs go to solo practice, DUI stuff. I'm not sure whether that's based on personal choice or what. I can't see someone giving up a great gig with a solid salary to chase ambulances, though.

Does anyone else have any info?


I'm in the same boat as you.

I've seen a lot of my peers that punched out end up with ICE, essentially serving as the Government Representative at various types of hearings. Others have ended up with SSA, some as Admin Law Judges. When I was deployed I interacted with DOD Office of General Counsel daily and the GS 12-14 types were almost all former JAGs.

I've been in trial defense last year and a surprising amount (at least to me) of area defense/senior trial/senior defense end up hanging out their own shingle doing criminal defense, almost always as civilian DC at courts-martial with some civilian practice mixed in. All of them seem truly happy with the decision though I cannot see myself doing this. My last court I did alongside a former Navy JAG who now was a civilian DC - he truly loved it and got me thinking about it as an option.

I've heard anecdotally that we are marketable for AUSA positions but until I can meet someone in a hiring position that can tell me that...

User avatar
Esquire
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:45 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:00 pm

ajax adonis wrote:I have a non-JAG friend who is an AUSA. He has several coworkers who are former JAGs of various branches. This is in a major US Attorney's office.
Patrick Bateman wrote:I've heard anecdotally that we are marketable for AUSA positions but until I can meet someone in a hiring position that can tell me that...

The AUSA thing is what I keep hearing, too. And I know current AUSAs who were JAGs. But I don't know if it's a sure thing. It seems like a definite possibility, for sure, but is it something I can count on? Maybe AUSA gigs are still really competitive for ex JAGs. All else equal, you'll get it. But whether all else is equal...

Moves like JAGger wrote:I've read elsewhere that JAGs experienced in government procurement/contracting have great exit options with major defense firms who employ them as contract negotiators. I imagine this is true but it seems that there would be major conflict issues that would have to be waived.

I've given ethics or post government employment briefings. Basically, if you did procurement, you have to sit out anything you worked on. So it's possible. You just need to be vigilant and ethical. I don't know whether JAGs would do the contract negotiation. Usually, the Contracting Officers do that stuff in the DOD. Not JAGs. JAGs do stuff like ensuring bona fide need.

holajerin
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby holajerin » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:03 pm

2L here in DC, anxiously awaiting results for the Navy spring board (and trying, mostly unsuccessfully, to not let it distract me from finals studying). I've been able to do externships in both the U.S. Attorney's Office and in "main" Justice (i.e., DOJ, one of the Criminal Division subsections). In both settings, I've met multiple former JAGs from both AF and Army. None from Navy yet, but I assume that's just because the Navy JAG Corps is smaller?

Anyway, all that is to say that JAG experience definitely seems to be a great foot in the door with federal government prosecution work, if nothing else. A couple of pieces of advice I have been given about transitioning out of JAG work:

1. Even if you're only planning to be a JAG for a relatively short amount of time, it's important to carefully keep track of what you've done (responsibilities, #s of trials, etc.) to be able to effectively communicate your experience and skills in interviews down the road. Even in the federal government (and I would assume it's even more true in private work), while many people will afford you significant respect as a former JAG attorney, they will not have a clear idea of exactly what you do and what your skills are.

2. If you plan to spend a long time as a JAG, the more senior you get, the further you (typically) become removed from actual legal work, because you're getting more managerial and administrative responsibilities as a higher-ranking officer. Thus, if you suspect at the outset that you will eventually want to transition to other litigation work, you should aim for opportunities to stay as connected to trial work (or other chances to utilize your actual legal skills) as much as possible. (For example, in the Navy, you can choose to pursue a dedicated Military Justice track.) As I've heard from a few people, an unfortunate consequence of making this decision to stay focused on trial work/utilizing your legal skills is that you may not be as competitive for promotion and certain opportunities as others. At least judging by what I've heard from former AF, Army, and Navy JAGs, they really do value generalists and leaders more than dedicated trial attorneys, the higher-up you go.

Bateman, does that all sound correct to you?

Fed_Atty
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:01 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:52 am

My guess is that this thread will evolve, but it will take time. It started out with Bateman as the only one with JAG experience and I imagine as it goes on some of us will get out, some will get promoted etc. Its interesting for me seeing glimpses into the other services. Even some minor things like the Army publishes its selection list, the AF makes the list available internally and for the Navy most of us have no idea who was selected. We do get an e-mail from the JAG stating how many were selected, how many applied and some qualifications, but nothing specific.

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:20 pm

holajerin wrote:1. Even if you're only planning to be a JAG for a relatively short amount of time, it's important to carefully keep track of what you've done (responsibilities, #s of trials, etc.) to be able to effectively communicate your experience and skills in interviews down the road. Even in the federal government (and I would assume it's even more true in private work), while many people will afford you significant respect as a former JAG attorney, they will not have a clear idea of exactly what you do and what your skills are.


This is spot on. It made me a laugh a bit because this was an exact conversation I had with one of the former JAGs at DOD/OGC when we were working together. He said he was initially incredulous that the DOD lawyers interviewing him simply had no idea how the Air Force worked and he had truly translate his resume into something more civilian friendly.

After a few years in military service, I think most of us forget how insular of an experience it is. It is terribly easy to become "that guy" who throws out military acronyms and initialisms (there is a difference between the two!) with no regard to the audience. I remember being a 2L intern with the AF and absolutely hating everyone who did that to me. And now, tragically, I've become the that very thing.

Thankfully, at least for me, I've got piles of performance reports and quarterly award packages that have tracked everything I've done over the years.

holajerin wrote: 2. If you plan to spend a long time as a JAG, the more senior you get, the further you (typically) become removed from actual legal work, because you're getting more managerial and administrative responsibilities as a higher-ranking officer. Thus, if you suspect at the outset that you will eventually want to transition to other litigation work, you should aim for opportunities to stay as connected to trial work (or other chances to utilize your actual legal skills) as much as possible. (For example, in the Navy, you can choose to pursue a dedicated Military Justice track.) As I've heard from a few people, an unfortunate consequence of making this decision to stay focused on trial work/utilizing your legal skills is that you may not be as competitive for promotion and certain opportunities as others. At least judging by what I've heard from former AF, Army, and Navy JAGs, they really do value generalists and leaders more than dedicated trial attorneys, the higher-up you go.


This is also spot on and a reality that is causing me some stress as I attempt to figure out what I want for my next assignment.

The Air Force will make you a generalist if you stay in or at least give you some "generalist" (or "broadening" in AF Orwellian speak) assignments along the way. Some folks fight it a little longer than others but eventually, we all end up back at a base legal office or some other leadership position. For those of you curious about how this might shake out, here is an example with a military justice "track" minded JAG:

Years 1-2: Base Legal at Wing X, section OIC within both military justice and general law
Years 3-4: Base Legal at Wing Y, division OIC, running mil jus/gen law
Years 5-6: Area Defense Counsel (Major's board will be around this time)
Years 7-8: Senior Trial Counsel/Senior Defense Counsel
Years 8-9: This is where most folks will end up as a Deputy SJA at a normal to bigger base, or SJA at a smaller base. There are a wide variety of assignments at this point in one's career but most folks will have to "come back to the fold" after that long doing just trial work.

That is all just a rough template. Some folks land an ADC position after 2-3 years at base legal. Some Senior Trial Counsel never were ADCs. A lot of Senior Defense have an assignment between ADC and SDC like working at our appellate shop or teaching at the JAG School.

You hit the challenging aspect of this right on the head. Once we get to that six year mark, some tougher decisions need to start being made about where one wants to go.

mlittle5
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:40 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby mlittle5 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:01 pm

For those interested, it appears the Army just posted the Select list for the Reserves. Congrats to anyone who got in!

User avatar
Rowinguy2009
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Rowinguy2009 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:51 pm

mlittle5 wrote:For those interested, it appears the Army just posted the Select list for the Reserves. Congrats to anyone who got in!


Anyone have any idea how selective this is? I know it's not as bad as active duty, but with only 48 chosen it has to be somewhat selective right?

ShockTop
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:23 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby ShockTop » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:46 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:Years 7-8: Senior Trial Counsel/Senior Defense Counsel
Years 8-9: This is where most folks will end up as a Deputy SJA at a normal to bigger base, or SJA at a smaller base. There are a wide variety of assignments at this point in one's career but most folks will have to "come back to the fold" after that long doing just trial work.


Is that about where you would be promoted to O-4? When does that normally happen?

User avatar
Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:02 am

ShockTop wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:Years 7-8: Senior Trial Counsel/Senior Defense Counsel
Years 8-9: This is where most folks will end up as a Deputy SJA at a normal to bigger base, or SJA at a smaller base. There are a wide variety of assignments at this point in one's career but most folks will have to "come back to the fold" after that long doing just trial work.


Is that about where you would be promoted to O-4? When does that normally happen?


Short answer - yes.

Longer answer - things are a bit FUBAR. I think I am meeting my Major's board in summer 2014 (five years after I pinned on Captain). From there, the results have to be released and then I actually have to pin the rank on - that can be an 18 month process.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012 ... board.html

User avatar
Moves like JAGger
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:18 am

Re: Military Law

Postby Moves like JAGger » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:15 am

great info, guys. Thanks!

boardercms
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby boardercms » Wed May 01, 2013 2:21 pm

It is now early May. Can the Navy please release their boards? Please?

erik_1717
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby erik_1717 » Wed May 01, 2013 2:59 pm

boardercms wrote:It is now early May. Can the Navy please release their boards? Please?


Hahaha....I woke up today telling myself the same thing

mlittle5
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:40 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby mlittle5 » Wed May 01, 2013 3:42 pm

erik_1717 wrote:
boardercms wrote:It is now early May. Can the Navy please release their boards? Please?


Hahaha....I woke up today telling myself the same thing


I'm putting my chips on Friday, but I'll take the loss with a pleasant, early surprise.

boardercms
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby boardercms » Wed May 01, 2013 4:08 pm

mlittle5 wrote:
erik_1717 wrote:
boardercms wrote:It is now early May. Can the Navy please release their boards? Please?


Hahaha....I woke up today telling myself the same thing


I'm putting my chips on Friday, but I'll take the loss with a pleasant, early surprise.



My guess is tomorrow. If not tomorrow, then Monday.

DannyBoy31
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:38 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby DannyBoy31 » Wed May 01, 2013 6:40 pm

Status changed here for Navy. Another ding. Hopefully third year yields better results...worst part is I really don't know where I'm going wrong.

User avatar
bouakedojo
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Wed May 01, 2013 6:46 pm

DannyBoy31 wrote:Status changed here for Navy. Another ding. Hopefully third year yields better results...worst part is I really don't know where I'm going wrong.


+1. Good luck to those still in the hunt.

User avatar
LazinessPerSe
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:18 am

Re: Military Law

Postby LazinessPerSe » Wed May 01, 2013 6:53 pm

No status change here, but I'm betting it's just a delayed ding. My package didn't change at all from last ding, other than 1 semester's worth of grades at new T1.

boardercms
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby boardercms » Wed May 01, 2013 8:21 pm

LazinessPerSe wrote:No status change here, but I'm betting it's just a delayed ding. My package didn't change at all from last ding, other than 1 semester's worth of grades at new T1.


I am still pending as well. Earlier in this thread I read that dings get updated first whereas acceptances read as "pending" for a couple of days before updating. Here's to hoping.

adonai
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby adonai » Wed May 01, 2013 8:31 pm

Still pending here as well.

71723
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:10 am

Re: Military Law

Postby 71723 » Wed May 01, 2013 8:42 pm

My Navy status just changed - got dinged. Best of luck to everyone else.

boardercms
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby boardercms » Wed May 01, 2013 8:46 pm

71723 wrote:My Navy status just changed - got dinged. Best of luck to everyone else.


I am sorry to hear that. Quick question to you an everyone who has gotten dinged so far: What is the first letter of your last name? I am trying to figure if there's any predictability to this thing so I don't sit here all day waiting for my ding.

71723
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:10 am

Re: Military Law

Postby 71723 » Wed May 01, 2013 8:49 pm

boardercms wrote:
71723 wrote:My Navy status just changed - got dinged. Best of luck to everyone else.


I am sorry to hear that. Quick question to you an everyone who has gotten dinged so far: What is the first letter of your last name? I am trying to figure if there's any predictability to this thing so I don't sit here all day waiting for my ding.


K, though no idea if they do stuff alphabetically!

adonai
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby adonai » Wed May 01, 2013 9:01 pm

71723 wrote:
boardercms wrote:
71723 wrote:My Navy status just changed - got dinged. Best of luck to everyone else.


I am sorry to hear that. Quick question to you an everyone who has gotten dinged so far: What is the first letter of your last name? I am trying to figure if there's any predictability to this thing so I don't sit here all day waiting for my ding.


K, though no idea if they do stuff alphabetically!

My last name also starts with a K, and I am still pending. So I don't think it is an alphabetical thing.

mlittle5
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:40 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby mlittle5 » Wed May 01, 2013 9:07 pm

adonai wrote:
71723 wrote:
boardercms wrote:
71723 wrote:My Navy status just changed - got dinged. Best of luck to everyone else.


I am sorry to hear that. Quick question to you an everyone who has gotten dinged so far: What is the first letter of your last name? I am trying to figure if there's any predictability to this thing so I don't sit here all day waiting for my ding.


K, though no idea if they do stuff alphabetically!

My last name also starts with a K, and I am still pending. So I don't think it is an alphabetical thing.


Unless they had hundreds of applicants, which they usually do... Mine starts with L and I'm pending as well.

holajerin
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby holajerin » Thu May 02, 2013 9:29 am

Any more status changes yet today? Mine's still pending.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.