Military Law

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hncsarge34

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Re: Military Law

Postby hncsarge34 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:46 pm

--LinkRemoved--

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bouakedojo

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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:44 pm

hncsarge34 wrote:
northerniowan wrote:Has anyone else been selected to attend OCS for the Marine Corps this summer on a law contract? OCC-213. READY TO FUCK SHIT UP!


Congratulations. Two pieces of advice: Get really close with your squad mates because they'll be writing your peer evaluations. Also, constantly push water or else you'll become acquainted with the silver bullet.


:shock: Google helps me learn something new everyday.

I hope that's a Marine Corps only thing....

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Moves like JAGger

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Re: Military Law

Postby Moves like JAGger » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:43 pm

any info on the selection rate or #'s for the April AF DAP board?

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Rotor

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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:28 pm

BetterCallSaul! wrote:Am I witnessing complaining because some fortunate Judge Advocate applicants have to wait for a class to open up?

For those of us still waiting, such behavior looks...unbecoming...to put it diplomatically. Please be aware that you are very fortunate for being picked up and, like most things in the military (and life in general), patience is a virtue. You're not endearing yourself to those of us who think it an honor and privilege to serve as a Judge Advocate and are patiently awaiting our good news. Further, the in-fighting is very childish. This forum is mainly informative and supportive. Act accordingly.

Hey Saul, as you are still waiting, am I correct in deducing you have zero military experience? (I recognize you may have served before school but I suspect based on your tone that isn't the case).

I encourage you to remember this board is for everyone interested in the military at all phases of the process. Some, like you, are still hoping to get picked up. Others have been selected. Both groups have their issues and concerns that they'd like to share with the community to get insight and/or advice. Those who were complaining about the delay have serious practical concerns, like eating and housing, that were exacerbated by the delay and most definitely worthy of this board's assistance. I would think you'd a) show a shred of empathy for a fellow American who, like you, is eager to serve and b) be interested in the discussion because if you get picked up, odds are good you would be in the same situation in a year or two. Your sensitivity reeks of entitlement and selfishness. I'm sure you can guess where those characteristics rank on the "officer like quality" scale.

And if you think patience > complaining in the military, it's clear you haven't served.

Thanks for listening.

PS--accusing an officer/candidate of "unbecoming" conduct is not diplomatic. It is an accusation of violating the UCMJ (Art. 133).

BetterCallSaul!

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Re: Military Law

Postby BetterCallSaul! » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:05 am

Hey Rotor,

Your deductive skills are spot on. I have not served and am not a primary source on all things military. I suppose I was just under the impression that the ‘hurry up and wait’ motto was commonplace to those who have researched, applied for, and accepted the Judge Advocate position and all that it entails (i.e., waiting quite a bit for MEPS/class time/orders/etc.).

I am happy for those who made it and wish all of us (including the previous posters) the best of luck whether commissioned, thinking about applying, or whatever stage they’re at. And I understand everyone’s situation is different and eating and housing needs are exacerbated by the arduous process but context is necessary. The previous posts were decrying the JAOBC for its seemingly capricious class assignments. Most of the posts have been edited or removed (so maybe you’re not privy to what was said) but the gist of it challenged the JAOBC’s meritocracy and implied that ‘squeaky wheels got cleaned.’ Since we’re still operating within our constitutional rights and not governed by the UCMJ, well maybe we are since I have not served and thus know nothing about the military, I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion (including the opinion of ‘unbecoming’ and ‘diplomatic’) but the tone in which the previous posts were made reeked of entitlement and selfishness; especially given the highly competitive nature of getting in and the forum being frequented and driven mostly by those seeking to get in. In light of these factors, perspective and exercise of restraint, I think, would be the becoming thing to do.

Thanks for listening.

erik_1717

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Re: Military Law

Postby erik_1717 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:09 am

Rotor wrote:PS--accusing an officer/candidate of "unbecoming" conduct is not diplomatic. It is an accusation of violating the UCMJ (Art. 133).


Nerd.

ShockTop

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Re: Military Law

Postby ShockTop » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:32 pm

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Last edited by ShockTop on Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ovocvuec

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Re: Military Law

Postby ovocvuec » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:39 pm

erik_1717 wrote:
Rotor wrote:PS--accusing an officer/candidate of "unbecoming" conduct is not diplomatic. It is an accusation of violating the UCMJ (Art. 133).


Nerd.


*Bump

thelawdoctor

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Re: Military Law

Postby thelawdoctor » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:00 pm

If interested I would say enlist while in law school and get them to pay for it up front.

You can still do OCS on weekends in the National Guard as kind of a late term ROTC deal.

I knew a few who went enlisted and made cpl by graduation, but they also had to do the real basic training and AIT and made less per drill and shit rolls down hill.................I would not do the enlisted option.

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LazinessPerSe

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Re: Military Law

Postby LazinessPerSe » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:32 pm

thelawdoctor wrote:If interested I would say enlist while in law school and get them to pay for it up front.

You can still do OCS on weekends in the National Guard as kind of a late term ROTC deal.

I knew a few who went enlisted and made cpl by graduation, but they also had to do the real basic training and AIT and made less per drill and shit rolls down hill.................I would not do the enlisted option.


This is really bad advice. People in law school have college degrees. There might be an option of commissioning in one area and hoping to lateral in to JAG via LEP, but that's a fool's gamble at best. There is literally no incentive to enlist when entering law school. Enlisting is signing a contract. Many programs (such as Navy Nuclear Power) do not allow for truncating the contract by promoting up to officer. There is no guarantee you will even promote to officer.
Last edited by LazinessPerSe on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ranger85

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Re: Military Law

Postby Ranger85 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:44 am

Rotor wrote:
BetterCallSaul! wrote:Am I witnessing complaining because some fortunate Judge Advocate applicants have to wait for a class to open up?

For those of us still waiting, such behavior looks...unbecoming...to put it diplomatically. Please be aware that you are very fortunate for being picked up and, like most things in the military (and life in general), patience is a virtue. You're not endearing yourself to those of us who think it an honor and privilege to serve as a Judge Advocate and are patiently awaiting our good news. Further, the in-fighting is very childish. This forum is mainly informative and supportive. Act accordingly.

Hey Saul, as you are still waiting, am I correct in deducing you have zero military experience? (I recognize you may have served before school but I suspect based on your tone that isn't the case).

I encourage you to remember this board is for everyone interested in the military at all phases of the process. Some, like you, are still hoping to get picked up. Others have been selected. Both groups have their issues and concerns that they'd like to share with the community to get insight and/or advice. Those who were complaining about the delay have serious practical concerns, like eating and housing, that were exacerbated by the delay and most definitely worthy of this board's assistance. I would think you'd a) show a shred of empathy for a fellow American who, like you, is eager to serve and b) be interested in the discussion because if you get picked up, odds are good you would be in the same situation in a year or two. Your sensitivity reeks of entitlement and selfishness. I'm sure you can guess where those characteristics rank on the "officer like quality" scale.

And if you think patience > complaining in the military, it's clear you haven't served.

Thanks for listening.

PS--accusing an officer/candidate of "unbecoming" conduct is not diplomatic. It is an accusation of violating the UCMJ (Art. 133).



Couldn't agree with you more. Its not that we aren't grateful on getting picked up but having to wait over a year after taking the bar before actually having a job is no small thing. I've been in the service in one form or another for over 10 years and to me it just seems more like typical Army bureaucracy and bad planning. Its not as if simply because we were picked up to be in the JAG Corps we should bow down at the feet of the Army God and just simply let their benevolent decisions wash over us. These are legitimate complaints.

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Postby Myself » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:32 am

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Last edited by Myself on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rotor

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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:24 pm

erik_1717 wrote:
Rotor wrote:PS--accusing an officer/candidate of "unbecoming" conduct is not diplomatic. It is an accusation of violating the UCMJ (Art. 133).


Nerd.

Come back and comment after you've spent 25 years in uniform and tell me how you feel about having someone call you unbecoming.

ShockTop

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Re: Military Law

Postby ShockTop » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:19 pm

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Last edited by ShockTop on Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pdk7

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Re: Military Law

Postby Pdk7 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:40 pm

Did anybody for Army use a PHA instead of going through the DODMERB process? If so did you just email your DD2766 and questionnaire? Also, do we have to be 100% green as far as medical readiness (i.e. no missing vaccinations, have all required glasses/inserts, etc.) goes or is the PHA good enough? I'm going to email them on Monday but I figure I'd see if any of you know the answer.

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Rotor

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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:42 am

ShockTop wrote:you're pissed, I get that, but taking it out on the board isn't necessary.
Shock, I appreciate your opinion, and I rarely, rarely, rarely get into internet pissing contests, but you totally miss it. I'm not taking anything out on the board. I was taking it out on Erik and now you.

I was not personally offended by Saul's post that kicked off this bruhaha. I am not a JAG selectee and am not affected by the Army's decision. My initial response was an attempt to do exactly what you appear to be doing now-- making the board an inviting place for everyone. Saul essentially said that selectees shouldn't come here and vent their concerns because there are others here whose feelings get hurt because they haven't been selected and would trade spots in a sec. I just tried to make the case that it should be an open forum for everyone and people who were offended (like Saul) shouldn't try to squelch them.

That would have been the end of it until Erik came in and decided to get all chippy over my PS. I even let slide Saul's mocking repetition of my "thanks for listening."

I served 25 years in uniform--21 commissioned. I've been coming to this board contributing since page 3 to talk about my experiences in the Navy and what I knew of JAG from my several good friends who were JAGs. My PS about "unbecoming" a) reflects my disdain for people who use that word too lightly (when talking about an officer's qualities) and b) attempted to teach those who haven't served (ineffectively apparently) the significance that word has only to have Erik call me a nerd. I don't play this card often, but I earned better than that from my service.

Finally, I NEVER told anyone they HAD to have 25 years and get insulted just to express an opinion in here. I said that when those things happen, come back and tell me how you feel. My bet is you don't find it such a "diplomatic" term.

ShockTop

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Re: Military Law

Postby ShockTop » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:11 am

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Last edited by ShockTop on Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Moves like JAGger

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Re: Military Law

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:25 am

you two should get a room :mrgreen:

can we get back to our regularly scheduled programming?

Any news regarding selection rate and/or #'s for the April AF board?

ovocvuec

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Re: Military Law

Postby ovocvuec » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:45 am

I would also be interested to know the application #s and selection rate for April AF Board.
Also, does anyone have any inside knowledge of a release date for Navy results? (other than the vague "early May" timeframe on the website)
It continues to amaze me that the AF consistently has results after 3-4weeks and the other services take 2-4x that amount of time to return results.

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Esquire

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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:37 pm

This thread needs to evolve. It used to be about being accepted into the JAG program. The vast, vast majority of that information has been disseminated and reiterated. At its inception, many of us were clueless. But together, we pieced together thoughts, hearsay, and more recently, our own firsthand evidence. We've done a lot to demystify the JAG Corps. This thread really is the definitive JAG book.

Now, let's start talking about the career itself. And, more importantly, post career options. You'd be shortsighted to not consider this information before accepting a commission. Does anyone have any idea what JAGs do post JAG Corps?

I'm fairly new so I don't know too many who have transitioned to the civilian sector. The ones I personally know who have retired are O5s and O6s. They took a federal position with the EPA and IG. My secondhand information is that government positions are definitely possible. For younger O3s and O4s. Be it DA, DOJ. I've also heard many JAGs go to solo practice, DUI stuff. I'm not sure whether that's based on personal choice or what. I can't see someone giving up a great gig with a solid salary to chase ambulances, though.

Does anyone else have any info?

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Postby Myself » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:50 pm

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Myself

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Postby Myself » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:52 pm

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Moves like JAGger

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Re: Military Law

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:54 pm

I've read elsewhere that JAGs experienced in government procurement/contracting have great exit options with major defense firms who employ them as contract negotiators. I imagine this is true but it seems that there would be major conflict issues that would have to be waived.

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Patrick Bateman

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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:55 pm

Esquire wrote:This thread needs to evolve. It used to be about being accepted into the JAG program. The vast, vast majority of that information has been disseminated and reiterated. At its inception, many of us were clueless. But together, we pieced together thoughts, hearsay, and more recently, our own firsthand evidence. We've done a lot to demystify the JAG Corps. This thread really is the definitive JAG book.

Now, let's start talking about the career itself. And, more importantly, post career options. You'd be shortsighted to not consider this information before accepting a commission. Does anyone have any idea what JAGs do post JAG Corps?

I'm fairly new so I don't know too many who have transitioned to the civilian sector. The ones I personally know who have retired are O5s and O6s. They took a federal position with the EPA and IG. My secondhand information is that government positions are definitely possible. For younger O3s and O4s. Be it DA, DOJ. I've also heard many JAGs go to solo practice, DUI stuff. I'm not sure whether that's based on personal choice or what. I can't see someone giving up a great gig with a solid salary to chase ambulances, though.

Does anyone else have any info?


I'm in the same boat as you.

I've seen a lot of my peers that punched out end up with ICE, essentially serving as the Government Representative at various types of hearings. Others have ended up with SSA, some as Admin Law Judges. When I was deployed I interacted with DOD Office of General Counsel daily and the GS 12-14 types were almost all former JAGs.

I've been in trial defense last year and a surprising amount (at least to me) of area defense/senior trial/senior defense end up hanging out their own shingle doing criminal defense, almost always as civilian DC at courts-martial with some civilian practice mixed in. All of them seem truly happy with the decision though I cannot see myself doing this. My last court I did alongside a former Navy JAG who now was a civilian DC - he truly loved it and got me thinking about it as an option.

I've heard anecdotally that we are marketable for AUSA positions but until I can meet someone in a hiring position that can tell me that...

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Esquire

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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:00 pm

ajax adonis wrote:I have a non-JAG friend who is an AUSA. He has several coworkers who are former JAGs of various branches. This is in a major US Attorney's office.
Patrick Bateman wrote:I've heard anecdotally that we are marketable for AUSA positions but until I can meet someone in a hiring position that can tell me that...

The AUSA thing is what I keep hearing, too. And I know current AUSAs who were JAGs. But I don't know if it's a sure thing. It seems like a definite possibility, for sure, but is it something I can count on? Maybe AUSA gigs are still really competitive for ex JAGs. All else equal, you'll get it. But whether all else is equal...

Moves like JAGger wrote:I've read elsewhere that JAGs experienced in government procurement/contracting have great exit options with major defense firms who employ them as contract negotiators. I imagine this is true but it seems that there would be major conflict issues that would have to be waived.

I've given ethics or post government employment briefings. Basically, if you did procurement, you have to sit out anything you worked on. So it's possible. You just need to be vigilant and ethical. I don't know whether JAGs would do the contract negotiation. Usually, the Contracting Officers do that stuff in the DOD. Not JAGs. JAGs do stuff like ensuring bona fide need.




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