Military Law

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blink
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Re: Military Law

Postby blink » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:14 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
blink wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:Happy to help.

I've never heard anything official from on high regarding a non-profit like TFA. My personal position, were I ever to find myself as an SJA (will occur when glaciers start forming in hell) or at JAX is that I would look on an experience like that favorably. It reflects that you are willing to serve the greater good and have an ambition beyond just a pay check. Those positions are also not easy to get, so it shows you showed yourself as qualified to someone out there. I've come across a number of different personalities in the JAG Corps all of whom had their own reasons for wanting to serve as an officer. As a result, I've never seen a "true" path in terms of public service, be it being prior enlisted, in a USAO/DOJ/Dist Attorney internship, or something a bit less conventional like TFA.

If you are truly good at it, I would also see being a teacher as a quality that could translate well into the trial-lit and advocacy heavy world of the JAG Corps. Our job is to help non-lawyers make important decisions - explaining technical concepts to someone without that specific technical background strikes me as the bread and butter of teaching. Most of the successful litigation track JAGs I know (Area Defense Counsels, Senior Trial Counsels, etc) like to bounce their arguments off of non-lawyers for that very reason. We make our arguments to a panels of AF officers and occasionally senior enlisted, outside of the JAG career field (unless the forum is military judge alone), so the ability to tone down the lawyer in favor the plain-English core concepts can be an incredibly valuable skill.


Great stuff, Bateman, thanks. One other question that I can't recall ever being answered specifically (but maybe implied often): does the exact degree of physical fitness matter? If I have a perfect score on the fitness tests, will that place me in higher regard than if I have a less impressive, but still sufficient score?


It certainly cannot hurt.

Having only applied to AF DAP, I cannot say if this is different for OYCP/GLP, but I am not aware of any PT as part of the application process. A lot of SJAs will ask applicants where they rank and stack on the PT Test (a very good idea do have done a mock test ahead of time so you can tell them where you are ). From personal experience, physical appearance will speak volumes in this category. There is a reason applicants include a picture as part of the application package. If an appicant looks heavy, it really will not matter if they can somehow still run fast. To be successful, you need to look fit. Looking fat (or having an abysmal law school GPA) will generally kill any interview before it even gets off the ground.

If you can honestly say you have cleared 90 on mock AF PT tests for your interview, you will have the box checked in this regard.


Awesome; thank you again. Last question, I promise! I've been looking all over for any way to get involved with the USAO/DOJ this summer, but I'm having a hard time. I'm going to just call them tomorrow, but before I go in blind, I was wondering if you know of anything that USAO offers to pre-law students? I'd love to get any kind of experience around cases in the DOJ, since that's where I want to end up long term. Everything they seem to have pertains only to current law students. Your help is much appreciated.

eas1423
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Re: Military Law

Postby eas1423 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:19 pm

Re: USAO opportunities -- I interned at the USAO in DC after my 1L year last summer, and we had 1 undergrad intern attached to the program (and probably 75 other law students, total). His girlfriend's mom was one of the section supervisors so that may have had something to do with it -- but anyway, it was possible! Unfortunately they assigned him to routine stuff like copying/filing in the least respected section, Misdemeanors. (Contrast that with USAF JAG, which allowed me to intern as an undergrad but gave me the same work as the law students! Mil beats civ yet again! :)

Anyway, so, it seems that it could be possible to intern with USAO as an undergrad, but it might be more worth your time to do something over the summer specifically slated for undergrads, and then cut your teeth more thoroughly at USAO when in law school.

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Lock74
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Re: Military Law

Postby Lock74 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:53 pm

Is there any current Marine JAGs that went through PLC OCS that I could pm? Thanks

Ranger85
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Re: Military Law

Postby Ranger85 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:17 pm

LSATmakesMeNeurotic wrote:
Ranger85 wrote:
erik_1717 wrote:
Ranger85 wrote:Have any of you that were selected for the Army Summer Internship heard anything about assignments yet? Other than just submitting the wishlist.



I have not. I was only picked as an alternate and figured that I wasn't selected because I didn't hear anything last week either. Were you selected or an alternate?



Selected, The Selection list wasn't due till Feb 18th so some people probably didn't accept and you might still have a shot.


Just got an email saying the alternates will hopefully have an answer by March 29th. Thanks to Congress not being able to play nicely in the sandbox, the internship program has been stunted.


Yea I was so heartbroken when I got the email about sequestration affecting the internship. My thinking is though from what I know about the sequester commanders can't move money around from different programs so at the most they will either have to reduce the Pay to GS-5, reduce weeks from 8 to 6 or just reduce the number of selected which doesn't seem likely. It just doesn't seem likely they will get rid of the entire program. Honestly I would be willing to do the internship without pay just because I know how important it is for getting selected for Active Duty next year.

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LSATmakesMeNeurotic
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Re: Military Law

Postby LSATmakesMeNeurotic » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:55 pm

Ranger85 wrote:Yea I was so heartbroken when I got the email about sequestration affecting the internship. My thinking is though from what I know about the sequester commanders can't move money around from different programs so at the most they will either have to reduce the Pay to GS-5, reduce weeks from 8 to 6 or just reduce the number of selected which doesn't seem likely. It just doesn't seem likely they will get rid of the entire program. Honestly I would be willing to do the internship without pay just because I know how important it is for getting selected for Active Duty next year.



I was thinking they might just keep whoever accepted from their selections and not add any alternates to fill the slots left open. It seemed like an easy way to make the cuts and still keep some interns but if the people selected got an email too, that's pretty rough.

MeredithDC
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Re: Military Law

Postby MeredithDC » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:29 pm

turtlejax wrote:Does anyone know anything about how the looming sequester would affect JAG hiring or commissioning? Are we safe for the most part because the positions are for AD?


What I am hearing from the Hill is "we don't know." There are so many factors that are going to go into sequestration, that no one is sure what is going to happen. Personnel hiring and commissioning is something that isn't really being discussed - pilot training, the underfunding of the KC-46 at FY11 levels, and civilian furloughs are the hot topics for the Air Force for example - not whether new classes will be able to be as large.

My gut feeling is that the answer will change depending on if sequestration is resolved in March, April (when the CR will run out) or September. But again the bottom line is "we don't know."

Beachbum89
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Re: Military Law

Postby Beachbum89 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:44 pm

Anyone know when the Navy JAG Internship program will start making offers? When I applied for the 1L internship last month the woman I interacted with in DC said I'd be notified by the end of this month. Also do people really think doing a JAG internship your 1L summer limits what you can do 2L summer and after graduating? I was under the impression 1L summer doesn't really matter as long as you do something law related.

Lechsie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Lechsie » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:44 am

Much thanks to all of you, of course, for keeping this thread remarkably civil and informative. My contribution is unfortunately yet another set of questions; I have not seen this issue yet addressed. I have applied to the Navy JAG Direct Appointment Program. I am curious re the timing of announcements for the professional recommendations of DAP applicants such as myself. Second, I am also curious whether the numbers I have seen posted - north of 1,000 applicants for the DAP in 2010, 4-5 individuals selected - are real. Third, I am curious whether the JAG Corps is looking for something different or extra in its Direct Appointments (e.g., heavy litigation or prosecutorial experience, or prior military service) than it would in a student or pre-licensure applicant.
Last edited by Lechsie on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:24 am

Lechsie wrote:Much thanks to all of you, of course, for keeping this thread remarkably civil and informative. My contribution is unfortunately yet another set of questions; I have not seen this issue yet addressed. I have applied to the Navy JAG Direct Appointment Program. (BA '92, JD '07, MA '11 . . . so feeling a teeny bit ancient while posting here.) I am curious re the timing of announcements for the professional recommendations of DAP applicants such as myself. Second, I am also curious whether the numbers I have seen posted - north of 1,000 applicants for the DAP in 2010, 4-5 individuals selected - are real. (The federal judge for whom I clerked five years ago told me I was one of over 600 applicants for his chambers, and at the time that was incomprehensible.) Third, although a little late to redo an overly interesting life history, I am curious whether the JAG Corps is looking for something different or extra in its Direct Appointments (e.g., heavy litigation or prosecutorial experience, or prior military service) than it would in a student or pre-licensure applicant. For superficial reference, my niche practice is regulatory/environmental, I have over twenty years in non-profit/public sector positions (including two stints at USDOJ during law school), and my academic credentials are excellent albeit not stratospheric. Thank you in advance and "bonne chance" to everyone. (Like water, we all find our own level, eventually.)


Only thing I can comment on: numbers of 4-5 selected from 1000 applicants aren't real. It's more like 4 or 5 selected out of 100.

andythefir
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Re: Military Law

Postby andythefir » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:40 am

Last board was an early October deadline, we found out in the middle/end of December. I am expecting this board to turn around in April or so. As to the acceptances the Navy posted 4% on their website, but I think applicants were up and spots down a few years ago (just like all legal hiring). Now I think it has gotten closer to 4%.

Ranger85
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Re: Military Law

Postby Ranger85 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:06 pm

I spoke to a Professor today who was a retired Army JAG about the sequester situation in relation to the internship. He said I shouldn't worry about it at all. He said its common practice in the military when there is a any type of budget concern to put a freeze on everything and review each expenditure individually, which I do no to be true from my own experience. He also said from what he knows that the TJAG (a three star) is not going to let the internship go away, they need it too much. If you think about it its pretty much vital for their recruitment. In my opinion its not like any service can cut their JAG Corp too much, its a pretty necessary part of the military. As an Infantry Officer I would say the military is more likely to just get rid of say a Field Artillery Regiment than to start pruning the JAG Corps too much. There just isn't that much in savings when you get rid of a few JAGs but the loss to bases and commanders is heavy.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:35 pm

andythefir wrote:get a 1L and 2L summer internship with the JAG. The problem is if you do that you have dramatically reduced your chances for any other employment.

The above isn't completely true. 1L summer doesn't matter, as long as you get a legal based job. And snagging a JAG gig for your 1L is awesome. It's unique, legal based, and you'll have a lot more to talk about in your 2L interviews than pushing paper.

2L internship, well, the 2L internship defines your intended career choice. Or rather, it should. So... Yeah, you're right about that.

jagapplicant2012
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Re: Military Law

Postby jagapplicant2012 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:43 pm

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Last edited by jagapplicant2012 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

votewarrior
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Re: Military Law

Postby votewarrior » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:28 pm

jagapplicant2012 wrote:A little more info trickling in for Direct Commission AD Army JAG selectees: we're eventually going to get appts. with local physicians contracted by the Army to give us physicals. Does anyone know if this is in lieu of going to MEPS or just a stepping stone to MEPS?


My understanding is that the DodMERB is in lieu of a MEPS medical

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2LT_CPG
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Re: Military Law

Postby 2LT_CPG » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:39 pm

jagapplicant2012 wrote:A little more info trickling in for Direct Commission AD Army JAG selectees: we're eventually going to get appts. with local physicians contracted by the Army to give us physicals. Does anyone know if this is in lieu of going to MEPS or just a stepping stone to MEPS?

And congrats to everyone finding out about their summer internship programs!

I don't know if it's changed, but I never did MEPS in ROTC. I did the DODMERB physical, which was really cursory, and that was it. I assume it's the same now.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:51 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:
jagapplicant2012 wrote:A little more info trickling in for Direct Commission AD Army JAG selectees: we're eventually going to get appts. with local physicians contracted by the Army to give us physicals. Does anyone know if this is in lieu of going to MEPS or just a stepping stone to MEPS?

And congrats to everyone finding out about their summer internship programs!

I don't know if it's changed, but I never did MEPS in ROTC. I did the DODMERB physical, which was really cursory, and that was it. I assume it's the same now.


When I was applying for the Marines as a 1L, I did a DODMERB physical instead of MEPS. It was contracted through a local physician at a clinic.

jagapplicant2012
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Re: Military Law

Postby jagapplicant2012 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:24 pm

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Last edited by jagapplicant2012 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

awkwadoodle
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Re: Military Law

Postby awkwadoodle » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:44 pm

Has anyone heard for the Navy internship yet?

Beachbum89
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Re: Military Law

Postby Beachbum89 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:52 pm

awkwadoodle wrote:Has anyone heard for the Navy internship yet?


Nothing yet for me.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:10 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

andythefir
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Re: Military Law

Postby andythefir » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:51 pm

I've been through the thread for most of it but I can't find a directly on point answer for a couple questions (or if I did I can no longer remember it):
(1) How does being a minority affect one's candidacy for the JAG corps (thanks for the correction, Patrick Bateman)? I couldn't help noticing the boxes to check for both the Navy and the Air Force.
(2) Is going to a firm for a summer game over for the JAG corps? For those of us who didn't get the 1L summer internship at some point we have to go on with our lives, and I assume that kind of straying from the JAG path would be very damaging.
Last edited by andythefir on Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:51 pm

ajax adonis wrote:Can someone please explain to me how BAH works for spouses of future JAGs if they're living apart during pre-JAG training?

You will receive BAH for your spouse while you are at COT & JASOC based on where your spouse is living. At least for the AF. I assume the other services are the same, but I am not sure.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:58 pm

andythefir wrote:(1) How does being a minority affect one's candidacy for the JAG corps (thanks for the correction, Patrick Bateman)? I couldn't help noticing the boxes to check for both the Navy and the Air Force.

My purely anecdotal observation is that it can help. I don't think there is any guidance specifying how much it does or does not help.
(2) Is going to a firm for a summer game over for the JAG corps? For those of us who didn't get the 1L summer internship at some point we have to go on with our lives, and I assume that kind of straying from the JAG path would be very damaging.

I don't think it's too bad. It's better if it gives you experience that has some relation to what you would be doing as a JAG officer. There are other choices for summer employment that would likely be more beneficial.
(3) Is anybody else finding the application process to be infuriatingly arbitrary?

Do you mean arbitrary in what you are supposed to turn in (e.g., a full length photo) or arbitrary in how the selections are actually made?

erik_1717
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Re: Military Law

Postby erik_1717 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:17 pm

howell wrote:
andythefir wrote:(1) How does being a minority affect one's candidacy for the JAG corps (thanks for the correction, Patrick Bateman)? I couldn't help noticing the boxes to check for both the Navy and the Air Force.

My purely anecdotal observation is that it can help. I don't think there is any guidance specifying how much it does or does not help.
(2) Is going to a firm for a summer game over for the JAG corps? For those of us who didn't get the 1L summer internship at some point we have to go on with our lives, and I assume that kind of straying from the JAG path would be very damaging.

I don't think it's too bad. It's better if it gives you experience that has some relation to what you would be doing as a JAG officer. There are other choices for summer employment that would likely be more beneficial.
(3) Is anybody else finding the application process to be infuriatingly arbitrary?

Do you mean arbitrary in what you are supposed to turn in (e.g., a full length photo) or arbitrary in how the selections are actually made?


If he is referring to it being arbitrary in how selections are made, I would suggest that he apply to the Marine Corps. I am only in the application process, but of the three I have applied to (Navy, Marines, Army Summer Internship), the Marines Corps by FAR offer the most control over your application's improvement. The main reason I say this is that they incorporate your physical fitness test score into your initial application. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the other branches all require you to pass a fitness test, but do so after your acceptance. With the Marine Corps, you can continuously improve your physical fitness test score until you receive a 300/300. With a 300 PFT score, I would find it incredibly difficult for you to not eventually get selected (barring something crazy). To me, that is something you know you can improve on that you also know is incredibly important to your application package, as opposed to doing something like extra volunteer work and not knowing how much it helps.

As I said, I am only in the application stages of this, but this is something I have taken away in my experiences.

adonai
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Re: Military Law

Postby adonai » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:24 pm

andythefir wrote:I've been through the thread for most of it but I can't find a directly on point answer for a couple questions (or if I did I can no longer remember it):
(1) How does being a minority affect one's candidacy for the JAG corps (thanks for the correction, Patrick Bateman)? I couldn't help noticing the boxes to check for both the Navy and the Air Force.
(2) Is going to a firm for a summer game over for the JAG corps? For those of us who didn't get the 1L summer internship at some point we have to go on with our lives, and I assume that kind of straying from the JAG path would be very damaging.

(1) If anything, not significant. Definitely not as significant as law school admissions.
(2) It doesn't matter what you do for summer, as long as you get some sort of leadership/management experience out of it. I did some of the most "prestigious" internships one can do as a law student, and it all meant SQUAT cause I didn't command an infantry platoon or anything. I would go as far as to say the summer experience doesn't even have to be legal, but don't take my word for it. The best thing you can do is (1) JAG summer internship (2) something that gives you leadership experience. Leadership makes up a large portion of interviews, and if you don't have something substantive and obvious to vouch for it, you will have a lot of awkward silence. I'm just adding this last part, but pick up an athletic activity whether it be the usual sports, or mountain climbing or something like that. Join a community sports league or do intramural sports if your law school does that. I just feel like they're looking for the best officer/leader as a first priority rather than the best lawyer.




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