Military Law

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evilxs
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Re: Military Law

Postby evilxs » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:03 pm

thekc7 wrote:Just a curiosity question for those in the Army JAG Corps: Why are Fort Carson and Fort Lewis so popular? I've noticed that they are in the "big 6" where you're only allowed to choose one for your assignment list.



I have been on Fort Carson.

It is one of the nicest Army bases, and has an amazing location.

If I get the JAG offer from the Army, it would be tops on my list.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:03 pm

evilxs wrote:
adonai wrote:
evilxs wrote:Mine was longer than everyone else here. :shock:

The first time it took from 8:30am until 3:30pm.
The most recent interview, at a different AFB, I started at 10:00am and ended at 5:20pm.

Please tell me you had 10 former careers to talk about. Otherwise I don't know why else an interview would be a whole day. I find social situations with even close friends exhausting if I'm talking 8 hours straight.



Both AFB's indicated to me that they set aside the day for the interview. I found that to be the case when I interviewed. I would not call it a singular interview, but instead more like a panel. I met specifically and individually with Captains, Lt's, and of course the Colonel.

In between meetings I received a tour of the facility, tours of the base, lunch meeting with the staff, and one interview where I was prompted to ask any questions I had which would not be discussed/reported to the Colonel.

Each individual "interview" meeting indicated they would be writing a report about their interactions with me to the Colonel.

It is very intense, the interview itself was the singular most difficult I have ever been through. The questions were the normal ones peppered with unexpected land mines. The oral advocacy portion of the interview was not done by one base, but was by the second. Be prepared for this interview: this is not something you can wing.

I think it is fair to say it is a full day interview. The in between activities count. Everything you do say, how you walk, talk, hold yourself, etc are being judged. This is a dog and pony show. They want to see an officer when you walk through the door. That you have the look, mannerisms, intelligence, and leadership potential to be an Air Force officer. If you don't the next guy will. Don't be nervous. Be confident, but not cocky. Try meeting with a friend in the service and get tips.


Holy. Shit.

I've worked in three different legal offices if you include the internship and I have never seen anything like that.

Thank God I snuck in under the wire a few years ago.

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evilxs
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Re: Military Law

Postby evilxs » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:45 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Holy. Shit.

I've worked in three different legal offices if you include the internship and I have never seen anything like that.

Thank God I snuck in under the wire a few years ago.


I've been following this thread through my 3 years of law school and I had read in here about a guy who had an interview like mine.
I knew it was possible, but definitely had a few moments of FML going through my head.

I want this so badly, but it is so much work to receive the letter that says eh try again. LOL

If I do this again, which I probably will - this is a dream of mine, I will try yet another AFB. If nothing else, I am persistent.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:47 am

Wow, that sounds brutal.

evilxs wrote:If I do this again, which I probably will - this is a dream of mine, I will try yet another AFB. If nothing else, I am persistent.

Yeah, I would definitely be looking to interview at a different base after that interview experience. :D

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:33 am

Wow, evilxs. I'm going to think my interview is a breeze compared to yours! :)

adonai
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Re: Military Law

Postby adonai » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:48 am

evilxs wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Holy. Shit.

I've worked in three different legal offices if you include the internship and I have never seen anything like that.

Thank God I snuck in under the wire a few years ago.


I've been following this thread through my 3 years of law school and I had read in here about a guy who had an interview like mine.
I knew it was possible, but definitely had a few moments of FML going through my head.

I want this so badly, but it is so much work to receive the letter that says eh try again. LOL

If I do this again, which I probably will - this is a dream of mine, I will try yet another AFB. If nothing else, I am persistent.

Geez. If you had trouble with oral advocacy, I don't know what I'd do. Thanks for the great info though. I really hope you get it this time. My base told me interview will be only 3 hours, and it is a very small base with not much staff. Hopefully I won't get this fastball pulled on me, but it's good to know it's a possibility and I will definitely try to get myself mentally prepared for it.

Also, for anyone who knows about or has interviewed for AF JAG OYCP, how much bearing does the AFROTC's evaluation of you have on your overall JAG package? They have five ratings: Outstanding (must select), Excellent (should select), Standard (can select), Marginal (select if needed), Unsatisfactory (do not select). If they said in the eval they're willing to accept you into their AFROTC detachment, is that good enough?

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evilxs
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Re: Military Law

Postby evilxs » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:42 am

adonai wrote:Geez. If you had trouble with oral advocacy, I don't know what I'd do. Thanks for the great info though. I really hope you get it this time. My base told me interview will be only 3 hours, and it is a very small base with not much staff. Hopefully I won't get this fastball pulled on me, but it's good to know it's a possibility and I will definitely try to get myself mentally prepared for it.

Also, for anyone who knows about or has interviewed for AF JAG OYCP, how much bearing does the AFROTC's evaluation of you have on your overall JAG package? They have five ratings: Outstanding (must select), Excellent (should select), Standard (can select), Marginal (select if needed), Unsatisfactory (do not select). If they said in the eval they're willing to accept you into their AFROTC detachment, is that good enough?


I didn't have trouble, I would say that I didn't knock it out of the park. So I held my own, but damn that could have been better if that makes sense?

I interviewed at a smaller base! lmao. I won't complain, I really enjoyed the staff there and the time they gave me. I really am toying going back to face the same Colonel again and re-interviewing. I am sure I will be a little less thrown off by expecting it.

I did the OYCP process, and my Colonel who interviewed me afterwards said he just needed something saying hey they'll take me. I don't know how much he took stock in what they sent, but it went out in my complete package to DC. If the Colonel needs clarification, or even the selection board for that matter about how strong of a candidate you are, they can always call and ask. If you have not yet interviewed at the base you can ask your interviewing AFROTC contact if they could reissue the letter including the selection ranking. I know I worked closely with my AFROTC interview Lt. Col, just because I was the first OYCP he had ever done. They can be unfamiliar with the process/recommendation. When he issued my letter it also lacked some of the suggested components. I contacted him proactively and said hey I have the letter, but it is missing one small thing. For a candidate they need to know if I am a must select, may select, select only if needed, etc. Would you be willing to edit the letter to include your perception of my placement potential for the selection board? He was more than willing to and we took care of that before I delivered the letter to my interview on the AFB.

Mr. Worf
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Re: Military Law

Postby Mr. Worf » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:02 am

megamanx wrote:
wedge96 wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Mr. Worf wrote:2L here applying for JAG summer internships. JAG felt like a black hole before I found this thread, thanks to everyone who has contributed!

Just curious if anyone knows how the Boards look at unpaid summer intern work? If I'm not selected for one of the paid summer internships, I'm considering working at a local Air Force base (the SJA gave me the thumbs up) this summer. I know getting one of the paid internships is good when applying for DA, is there any similar boost with unpaid work, other than hopefully a good letter of recommendation?

If this has already been covered in one of the 146 forum pages, then I must've missed it, sorry.

Thanks.


Good question.

I would highly recommend going the unpaid route in the event you do not get picked up for the official intern program. I've never been able to get a good feel for how many extra "points" an applicant may get by going through the official program versus the ad-hoc volunteer one. While there is something to be said to already having an application favorably reviewed by a JAX and getting competitively selected, I also think having the initiative and determination to arrange an unpaid internship speaks a lot about how seriously an applicant wants to pursue JAG.

The true pay off with the internship comes from being able to prove yourself over 10 weeks in a legal office and having that reflected by the SJA in the interview. It is much easier to demonstrate you have the ability to fit in and excel in the military over a 10 week window that in a 90 minute interview.

Having worked with a few unpaid interns in the past: if you end up going that route, work early with whoever your handler is (usually one of the Captains or the Law Office Superintendent) on how to get computer access. Official interns are DOD hires, so it is easy enough to get them a CAC and access to the network. If you volunteer, that is not always the case. Sometimes it can be worked out - other times you might be bringing in your own laptop. I had one unpaid intern who ended up getting a wireless card/wi-fi hotspot so he could do research and have email access.


FWIW: I wasn't selected for the Army or AF paid internships so I volunteered at a local AF base legal office. I worked there all summer (~12 weeks), did as much legal work I could (criminal, legal assistance, procurement, environmental, real estate, etc.), talked a lot with everyone in the office about the AF and JAG Corps, did group PT with the office, sat in on all staff meetings and video teleconferences, and saw every hearing/courtroom proceeding I could. After my internship I interviewed with the SJA there and got picked up on my first board.

I heard that the SJA asked everyone in the office for their opinion of me when I interviewed to get a better idea of me and whether I would be a good fit in the AF. Also, everyone in the office, the SJA included, seemed impressed that I worked my entire 2L summer there for free and I think it made a difference when she wrote my interview report. I think the paid internship shows the AF is at least interested in you, but I definitely think the unpaid route can help as well.


This is a damn good idea that a few guys I knew took advantage of last summer. However, make sure the base (not just the JAG office) will allow such an internship to work. I worked with a volunteer intern last year that was told week one that he would not be getting a CAC card and therefore couldn't access any office computers the entire summer.


Thanks for the feedback everyone! I'll find out about the CAC access.

Before I discussed it with my wife, I needed to know it could help with my apps next year. Plus I'd like the opportunity to see JAGS at work and make sure it's a good fit.

One more question, there's another base that's closer but smaller and only does legal aid work, is it worth looking into? Or should I stick with my original plans. It would significantly help financially to not have to pay rent in two places... The work will probably be less exciting, but will they look the same on my resume for apps next year?

adonai
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Re: Military Law

Postby adonai » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:19 pm

evilxs wrote:
adonai wrote:Geez. If you had trouble with oral advocacy, I don't know what I'd do. Thanks for the great info though. I really hope you get it this time. My base told me interview will be only 3 hours, and it is a very small base with not much staff. Hopefully I won't get this fastball pulled on me, but it's good to know it's a possibility and I will definitely try to get myself mentally prepared for it.

Also, for anyone who knows about or has interviewed for AF JAG OYCP, how much bearing does the AFROTC's evaluation of you have on your overall JAG package? They have five ratings: Outstanding (must select), Excellent (should select), Standard (can select), Marginal (select if needed), Unsatisfactory (do not select). If they said in the eval they're willing to accept you into their AFROTC detachment, is that good enough?


I didn't have trouble, I would say that I didn't knock it out of the park. So I held my own, but damn that could have been better if that makes sense?

I interviewed at a smaller base! lmao. I won't complain, I really enjoyed the staff there and the time they gave me. I really am toying going back to face the same Colonel again and re-interviewing. I am sure I will be a little less thrown off by expecting it.

I did the OYCP process, and my Colonel who interviewed me afterwards said he just needed something saying hey they'll take me. I don't know how much he took stock in what they sent, but it went out in my complete package to DC. If the Colonel needs clarification, or even the selection board for that matter about how strong of a candidate you are, they can always call and ask. If you have not yet interviewed at the base you can ask your interviewing AFROTC contact if they could reissue the letter including the selection ranking. I know I worked closely with my AFROTC interview Lt. Col, just because I was the first OYCP he had ever done. They can be unfamiliar with the process/recommendation. When he issued my letter it also lacked some of the suggested components. I contacted him proactively and said hey I have the letter, but it is missing one small thing. For a candidate they need to know if I am a must select, may select, select only if needed, etc. Would you be willing to edit the letter to include your perception of my placement potential for the selection board? He was more than willing to and we took care of that before I delivered the letter to my interview on the AFB.

Thanks for the info. I only ask cause I was selected as "standard" but my Lt Col was willing to take me and had very good things to say about me in my eval. Just wondering if that "standard" label would hurt me. I just feel that these recruiters have interviewed so many ROTC candidates that not many candidates impress them that much as to be "Outstanding." Or maybe I'm just wrong and I really just suck.

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:03 pm

Mr. Worf wrote:Before I discussed it with my wife, I needed to know it could help with my apps next year. Plus I'd like the opportunity to see JAGS at work and make sure it's a good fit.

One more question, there's another base that's closer but smaller and only does legal aid work, is it worth looking into? Or should I stick with my original plans. It would significantly help financially to not have to pay rent in two places... The work will probably be less exciting, but will they look the same on my resume for apps next year?


Not JAG here, but did internship including legal assistance and IMO it can be some of the most rewarding work you'll ever do. You get to have real clients with real issues. Granted, most of them are relatively simple like I need a will done before I deploy or I want to set up a power of attorney for my kids and bank account, but it's extremely important work taking care of service members.

While I have not been selected (yet), the interviewers with whom I worked seemed happy with the fact that I would be glad to take on legal assistance and knew that was a basis for JA work.

Almost every single interviewer(Army/Navy/AF) has asked me where I saw myself starting as a freshly minted JA if I were selected. Answering legal assistance and moving on to military justice seems to be the right and realistic answer. Again, I haven't been selected nor served, but the willingness to do the most basic work to help out the service seems to be key, so I could see your internship doing purely legal assistance to be valuable, if it would work better with your budget.

Texan09
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Re: Military Law

Postby Texan09 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:59 pm

thekc7 wrote:Just a curiosity question for those in the Army JAG Corps: Why are Fort Carson and Fort Lewis so popular? I've noticed that they are in the "big 6" where you're only allowed to choose one for your assignment list.


It's because they are located near/in Colorado Springs and Seattle. Awesome places to live for military or civilian.

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oberlin08
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Re: Military Law

Postby oberlin08 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:05 am

Texan09 wrote:
thekc7 wrote:Just a curiosity question for those in the Army JAG Corps: Why are Fort Carson and Fort Lewis so popular? I've noticed that they are in the "big 6" where you're only allowed to choose one for your assignment list.


It's because they are located near/in Colorado Springs and Seattle. Awesome places to live for military or civilian.



I actually heard differently. I heard that it is because those are MASSIVE bases. Ft. Lewis is enormous.

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LSATmakesMeNeurotic
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Re: Military Law

Postby LSATmakesMeNeurotic » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:22 pm

oberlin08 wrote:
Texan09 wrote:
thekc7 wrote:Just a curiosity question for those in the Army JAG Corps: Why are Fort Carson and Fort Lewis so popular? I've noticed that they are in the "big 6" where you're only allowed to choose one for your assignment list.


It's because they are located near/in Colorado Springs and Seattle. Awesome places to live for military or civilian.



I actually heard differently. I heard that it is because those are MASSIVE bases. Ft. Lewis is enormous.


eh, Fort Hood is a "massive" base and I know a lot of people that don't enjoy it that much. While there are more resources on a larger base, I'd say the location is more of a factor than anything else.

PSH
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Re: Military Law

Postby PSH » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:57 pm

6 days until "8 weeks" since the October 12 deadline for the Navy. That is all

target
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Re: Military Law

Postby target » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:08 pm

PSH wrote:6 days until "8 weeks" since the October 12 deadline for the Navy. That is all


I have tried not to think about this because it would only open the door to intense anxiety during final week.

balzie94
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Re: Military Law

Postby balzie94 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:23 pm

Last year, Navy took like 9 weeks in the fall. Just saying. My guess is we'll hear back December 12 ish.

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oberlin08
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Re: Military Law

Postby oberlin08 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:35 pm

My Army Active Duty Application Status just changed to "pending board decision."

Fingers Crossed!

PSH
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Re: Military Law

Postby PSH » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:27 am

balzie94 wrote:Last year, Navy took like 9 weeks in the fall. Just saying. My guess is we'll hear back December 12 ish.


thanks for the tip! :D

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dachillchick
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Re: Military Law

Postby dachillchick » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:48 pm

So I finally found out my assignment...I'm going to Hickam. It's going to be an enormous move for me. Does anyone have any thoughts/familiarity with the base? It would be much appreciated.

BetterCallSaul!
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Re: Military Law

Postby BetterCallSaul! » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:02 pm

For those selected, do you keep in touch with the SJA that recommended you?

Further, do the powers that be - generally speaking - tend to not assign you with the SJA that recommended you?

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:22 pm

dachillchick wrote:So I finally found out my assignment...I'm going to Hickam. It's going to be an enormous move for me. Does anyone have any thoughts/familiarity with the base? It would be much appreciated.

Oh what horrible luck! I hope you get to draw hardship duty pay for having to suffer through your first assignment there. ;)

Haven't known anyone at Hickam. But everyone I knew at Pearl loved it. Some have never left the islands since.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:18 am

dachillchick wrote:So I finally found out my assignment...I'm going to Hickam. It's going to be an enormous move for me. Does anyone have any thoughts/familiarity with the base? It would be much appreciated.

You're dead to me.

Sincerely,
Assigned to Offutt AFB

BetterCallSaul! wrote:For those selected, do you keep in touch with the SJA that recommended you?

Further, do the powers that be - generally speaking - tend to not assign you with the SJA that recommended you?

I have not, no. Doesn't mean it would be a bad idea, though.

I don't think who interviewed you will come into play with assignments at all, but I could be wrong.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:10 pm

BetterCallSaul! wrote:For those selected, do you keep in touch with the SJA that recommended you?

Further, do the powers that be - generally speaking - tend to not assign you with the SJA that recommended you?


Not for me. The SJA that interviewed me retired a year or two later. There is no set protocol either for or against this. If you are fortunate enough to have had a great SJA that you want to stay in touch with, absolutely do that. I still am in contact with my first SJA and a few people from my internship.

I have never seen someone be sent to the base at which they interviewed but I am not aware of any hard and fast rule against that. Same goes for the interviewing SJA but that is also practical. Most SJAs do not do back-to-back tours as SJAs, which generally means that by the time you come on active duty, the SJA's two year tour at that legal office will be up and they will be off doing something else, usually not at another base legal office.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:55 pm

Do the AF Dec DAP results generally come out after the new year?

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:58 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Do the AF Dec DAP results generally come out after the new year?

It was right before Christmas last year. For better or worse.




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