Military Law

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:13 pm

brownshoe wrote:
How bad would it be to have two DUIs (one 5+ years ago; one this year)?

I'm incredibly interested in JAG (probably Navy), and I'm otherwise a strong applicant, but I'm worried this will fuck me. Thoughts?

There are few absolutes, but that's probably a dealbreaker.


Agreed 100%.

Based on my time in so far, I cannot envision any situation in which you can get selected. Some criminal conduct can be excused if it happened when you were a teenager or under some other mitigating circumstance. Your issue is that the most recent one occurred in the "you knew better" phase of life and is compounded by the fact that you were an also law student.

When it is done right, officers are selected because they have the intelligence, judgment, and maturity to be able to lead and set the example. The double DUI calls all those characteristics into question for you, even if you have otherwise outstanding things on your resume.

balzie94
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Re: Military Law

Postby balzie94 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:30 pm

Out of curiosity, and not to sound dumb, but do minor traffic infractions hurt a candidate's chances? I noticed on the AF form it asked about even speeding tickets, etc.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:44 pm

balzie94 wrote:Out of curiosity, and not to sound dumb, but do minor traffic infractions hurt a candidate's chances? I noticed on the AF form it asked about even speeding tickets, etc.

I don't think it's a big deal, as long as they are minor infractions, not too many of them, and hopefully not that recent. I listed 3 speeding tickets on my application, and I made a note that I had several older than 10 years that I could no longer find documentation for (the state I received them in doesn't keep records that old), and none of my 3 interviewers made it out to be anything consequential. I was eventually selected, so it's not an absolute bar for sure.

My guess would be that they know minor infractions occur, and as long as they aren't repeated excessively (to the point of getting your license suspended or something similar) or extremely recent (don't get one on base on the way to your interview :D ), I don't think it would be a problem. My interviewers were much more concerned with other areas of my application package.

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:13 am

Anyone applying for Army this time around?

Applied 3 or 4 times to the Navy, rejected, Air Force, the same. Applied Army last year—no go. Graduated this year, hoping my luck changes.

I have some issues on my transcript and personal conduct but nothing too serious or criminal. Just feel like it's enough to ding me despite other stuff like relevant internships and activities.

71723
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Re: Military Law

Postby 71723 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:53 am

While this thread is on the subject of criminal background stuff... I'm a 2L and I'm going to be applying to the Army, Navy, and Air Force JAG summer internships with the hope of entering into one of the branches through DAP after 3L.

I had an minor-in-possession conviction as a freshman in college (6 years ago now), which is the only thing that has ever happened to me and I completed one of those alcohol education programs which expunges the record. Would this seriously impact my chances both for an internship and DAP after graduation?

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:05 am

71723 wrote:While this thread is on the subject of criminal background stuff... I'm a 2L and I'm going to be applying to the Army, Navy, and Air Force JAG summer internships with the hope of entering into one of the branches through DAP after 3L.

I had an minor-in-possession conviction as a freshman in college (6 years ago now), which is the only thing that has ever happened to me and I completed one of those alcohol education programs which expunges the record. Would this seriously impact my chances both for an internship and DAP after graduation?

First, note that you can start applying to the Navy's Student Program (which is kind of like a DAP just for law students) as a 2L, and the SP seems to be the best way to get in. You might also be eligible for the Air Force OYCP, but I haven't looked into that recently.

My guess (and others here have more experience with this than I do) is that it won't be an absolute bar, but be ready to make it extremely clear to any interviewer how and why you have changed. I spent a lot of time in my interviews having to talk about previous problems in life (not criminal, but other stuff) and explain why it wasn't a problem now. This would certainly be one of those things. From what I can tell, the interviewer can put his or her own spin on the situation, recommending whether to put much weight on the conviction. A strong history of not doing the wrong thing and of doing a lot of the right things will help, but I can't guarantee this wouldn't keep you out, especially when the JAG corps get their pick of a lot of highly-qualified candidates.

I think it would be less of a hindrance to getting an internship than it would to getting a commission. I still don't quite understand how the Air Force made its internship selections. I was lucky to get one of the internships; I looked pretty good on paper, but I am sure a LOT of other people did too.

71723
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Re: Military Law

Postby 71723 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:36 am

howell wrote:
71723 wrote:While this thread is on the subject of criminal background stuff... I'm a 2L and I'm going to be applying to the Army, Navy, and Air Force JAG summer internships with the hope of entering into one of the branches through DAP after 3L.

I had an minor-in-possession conviction as a freshman in college (6 years ago now), which is the only thing that has ever happened to me and I completed one of those alcohol education programs which expunges the record. Would this seriously impact my chances both for an internship and DAP after graduation?

First, note that you can start applying to the Navy's Student Program (which is kind of like a DAP just for law students) as a 2L, and the SP seems to be the best way to get in. You might also be eligible for the Air Force OYCP, but I haven't looked into that recently.

My guess (and others here have more experience with this than I do) is that it won't be an absolute bar, but be ready to make it extremely clear to any interviewer how and why you have changed. I spent a lot of time in my interviews having to talk about previous problems in life (not criminal, but other stuff) and explain why it wasn't a problem now. This would certainly be one of those things. From what I can tell, the interviewer can put his or her own spin on the situation, recommending whether to put much weight on the conviction. A strong history of not doing the wrong thing and of doing a lot of the right things will help, but I can't guarantee this wouldn't keep you out, especially when the JAG corps get their pick of a lot of highly-qualified candidates.

I think it would be less of a hindrance to getting an internship than it would to getting a commission. I still don't quite understand how the Air Force made its internship selections. I was lucky to get one of the internships; I looked pretty good on paper, but I am sure a LOT of other people did too.


Thanks, Howell. It is my one blemish, so I have a lot more in the "right things" category than wrong. Hoping that I don't get dinged because of it.

I hadn't seen the Navy SP, so thanks again! Unfortunately, today is the deadline for the fall board, so I'd have to wait for the spring, but I'll get on top of that for February. And I have been looking into the Air Force OYCP, but my understanding is that it's even more ultra-selective than DAP, so I'm not holding out hope - that's why I was more interested in the internships.

I have my FSO interview with Army for an summer internship coming up next week. Going through this thread, I hadn't seen much talked about the FSO interviews... Can anyone comment on what those are like?

jackstark
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Re: Military Law

Postby jackstark » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:42 am

For folks in the Navy who did October NJS (where they require you to have bar results in-hand before starting), which states' July bar exams report results in time to qualify? Only ones I've found so far are Wisconsin and West Virginia.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:08 pm

How bad would it be to have two DUIs (one 5+ years ago; one this year)?

I'm incredibly interested in JAG (probably Navy), and I'm otherwise a strong applicant, but I'm worried this will fuck me. Thoughts?

You're done. Don't bother with an app.
Groundie wrote:Anyone applying for Army this time around?

Applied 3 or 4 times to the Navy, rejected, Air Force, the same. Applied Army last year—no go. Graduated this year, hoping my luck changes.

I have some issues on my transcript and personal conduct but nothing too serious or criminal. Just feel like it's enough to ding me despite other stuff like relevant internships and activities.

Hey, I remember you. Good luck. Let me tell you, this is the greatest job I've ever had. I really enjoy what I do. It's worth the difficult application process.

target
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Re: Military Law

Postby target » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:20 pm

So should I assume then that things happened more than 5 years ago would have lesser impact then things occurred recently?

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:07 am

Esquire wrote:
Groundie wrote:Anyone applying for Army this time around?

Applied 3 or 4 times to the Navy, rejected, Air Force, the same. Applied Army last year—no go. Graduated this year, hoping my luck changes.

I have some issues on my transcript and personal conduct but nothing too serious or criminal. Just feel like it's enough to ding me despite other stuff like relevant internships and activities.

Hey, I remember you. Good luck. Let me tell you, this is the greatest job I've ever had. I really enjoy what I do. It's worth the difficult application process.

Thank you. I've been stirring around this thread a while and the advice you and others have posted has been invaluable, as has the support. Getting to see what JAs do on a daily basis was the greatest experience of my life.

My transcripts and personal conduct happened while in law school, but at this point 3 years ago. I understand if it's a reason for dinging me—there's plenty of folks at decent schools that would make excellent officers and attorneys without any question marks. That being said, if I strike out again, I will be here this time next year, applying to Army.

As I wait to find out if I've passed the bar, it's tough to get stuff to add to the resume before applying, for both this year and the possible next. That's the challenge.

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Doc Review Lifer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Doc Review Lifer » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:40 am

In re: tattoos...

When I was eighteen and during my Rage-Against-the-Machine time of my youth, I got a communist tattoo on my leg (less than 25% of the area). I have never been an official member of the political organization. Further, I am having it removed and towards the end of the removal process for it. If selected, I plan on disclosing the tattoo (well, ex-tattoo by then) as well. I am just curious as to the ramifications of this error in my judgment.

Facially, I am unsure whether the tattoo would violate the AF policy prohibiting tattoos and/or brands obscene or advocate sexual, racial, ethnic, or religious discrimination.

Shall I be worried?

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:42 am

Doc Review Lifer wrote:In re: tattoos...

When I was eighteen and during my Rage-Against-the-Machine time of my youth, I got a communist tattoo on my leg (less than 25% of the area). I have never been an official member of the political organization. Further, I am having it removed and towards the end of the removal process for it. If selected, I plan on disclosing the tattoo (well, ex-tattoo by then) as well. I am just curious as to the ramifications of this error in my judgment.

Facially, I am unsure whether the tattoo would violate the AF policy prohibiting tattoos and/or brands obscene or advocate sexual, racial, ethnic, or religious discrimination.

Shall I be worried?

Are you supposed to disclose removed tattoos? I never had any tattoos, so I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to that part of the process.

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Doc Review Lifer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Doc Review Lifer » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:04 am

howell wrote:
Doc Review Lifer wrote:In re: tattoos...

When I was eighteen and during my Rage-Against-the-Machine time of my youth, I got a communist tattoo on my leg (less than 25% of the area). I have never been an official member of the political organization. Further, I am having it removed and towards the end of the removal process for it. If selected, I plan on disclosing the tattoo (well, ex-tattoo by then) as well. I am just curious as to the ramifications of this error in my judgment.

Facially, I am unsure whether the tattoo would violate the AF policy prohibiting tattoos and/or brands obscene or advocate sexual, racial, ethnic, or religious discrimination.

Shall I be worried?

Are you supposed to disclose removed tattoos? I never had any tattoos, so I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to that part of the process.


I've heard of a selectee having their paperwork being held up because the AF needed the tattoo removal records...

hoogs23
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Re: Military Law

Postby hoogs23 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:18 pm

sorry if this was already covered, but does the army or navy do anything like the air force oycp?

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:57 pm

hoogs23 wrote:sorry if this was already covered, but does the army or navy do anything like the air force oycp?


Have you done any research??? :wink: :)

The Army does not, but the Navy does have a student program that you can apply to as a 2L.

See here for more info:

--LinkRemoved--

balzie94
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Re: Military Law

Postby balzie94 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:04 pm

Doc Review Lifer wrote:In re: tattoos...

When I was eighteen and during my Rage-Against-the-Machine time of my youth, I got a communist tattoo on my leg (less than 25% of the area). I have never been an official member of the political organization. Further, I am having it removed and towards the end of the removal process for it. If selected, I plan on disclosing the tattoo (well, ex-tattoo by then) as well. I am just curious as to the ramifications of this error in my judgment.

Facially, I am unsure whether the tattoo would violate the AF policy prohibiting tattoos and/or brands obscene or advocate sexual, racial, ethnic, or religious discrimination.

Shall I be worried?


Seeing it as the Air Force has a question about "Have you ever supported an organization that seeks to change the United States government other than by constitutional means," you may have to provide an interesting addendum here...

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Doc Review Lifer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Doc Review Lifer » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:34 pm

balzie94 wrote:
Doc Review Lifer wrote:In re: tattoos...

When I was eighteen and during my Rage-Against-the-Machine time of my youth, I got a communist tattoo on my leg (less than 25% of the area). I have never been an official member of the political organization. Further, I am having it removed and towards the end of the removal process for it. If selected, I plan on disclosing the tattoo (well, ex-tattoo by then) as well. I am just curious as to the ramifications of this error in my judgment.

Facially, I am unsure whether the tattoo would violate the AF policy prohibiting tattoos and/or brands obscene or advocate sexual, racial, ethnic, or religious discrimination.

Shall I be worried?


Seeing it as the Air Force has a question about "Have you ever supported an organization that seeks to change the United States government other than by constitutional means," you may have to provide an interesting addendum here...


I see where you are coming from, but the operative words are change the United States government other than by constitutional means.... The American Communist Party operates on the principle of democratic centralism and seeks to bring about change constitutionally (working with labor unions, civil right groups etc.) I know it's a rather strict constructionist interpretation but words are important.

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Nightrunner
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Re: Military Law

Postby Nightrunner » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:05 pm

balzie94 wrote:Seeing it as the Air Force has a question about "Have you ever supported an organization that seeks to change the United States government other than by constitutional means," you may have to provide an interesting addendum here...

/covers AIM tattoo

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oberlin08
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Re: Military Law

Postby oberlin08 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:19 am

FYI: I spoke with an Army JAG the other day at my school's OCIs. She stated that applications are way down this year.

71723
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Re: Military Law

Postby 71723 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:28 am

oberlin08 wrote:FYI: I spoke with an Army JAG the other day at my school's OCIs. She stated that applications are way down this year.


Applications are down for what? Active duty? Internships? Both?

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:10 am

Nightrunner wrote:
balzie94 wrote:Seeing it as the Air Force has a question about "Have you ever supported an organization that seeks to change the United States government other than by constitutional means," you may have to provide an interesting addendum here...

/covers AIM tattoo


At first, when I read this, my mind went to:

Image

How's 2L treating you? I can't wait for 3L myself so I can have a little free time.

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:29 pm

Not to overexcite anyone waiting on AF results, but I am pretty sure I heard at my staff meeting earlier this week that the DAP board has been meeting this week. Not sure when decisions will be made, or how many people they'll take, but take heart that progress is being made. At least for AF, it sounds like lots of folks are still applying, and only a small percent get selected (estimating 5-7%). What can I say... AF appears to be awesome.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:55 pm

allAF wrote:Not to overexcite anyone waiting on AF results, but I am pretty sure I heard at my staff meeting earlier this week that the DAP board has been meeting this week. Not sure when decisions will be made, or how many people they'll take, but take heart that progress is being made. At least for AF, it sounds like lots of folks are still applying, and only a small percent get selected (estimating 5-7%). What can I say... AF appears to be awesome.


A word of caution - while they may be meeting this week, do not think that results will be posted next week. Not only are there a ton of applicants but TJAG reviews the recommended selections personally before they become official. As I posted before (either this board or AirForceOTS), I think mid-November is a safe guesstimate.

And of course the Air Force is awesome.

hoogs23
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Re: Military Law

Postby hoogs23 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:49 am

say you apply to JAG programs for each branch because you just want to be a JAG officer. Would the separate branches disapprove of that and you should just focus on one?




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