Military Law

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:59 pm

AFJAGHopeful1988 wrote:I'm currently in law school (went straight through from undergrad to law school), and I am going through the JAG application Process. Unfortunately, my parents are both strongly opposed to any of their children entering the military in any capacity. I've tried to discuss it with them at various times over the past few years as JAG has been something I have been interested in for a long time, but the conversations have gotten very emotional and I usually just end the conversation for the sake of avoiding an argument. At this point I try not to bring it up. That said, I feel very uncomfortable hiding it from them that I am going thorugh the JAG application process and if I do get a commission, springing it on them that I was entering the military would be very difficult for them. I think it's time that they and I had a serious conversation about it. Has anyone else had this problem? If so, how did you deal with this conversation/issue?


Parents like this generally fall into two camps: the first have no fundamental issue with the military but have the perfectly reasonable fear for the safety of their children. The second tend to be the sort that are so "liberal" that they hate the military in some form, despite having no service background or first-hand knowledge about how it functions.

If they are in the first camp - you need to educate them. Consider talking to a nearby AFB Legal Office; ask for a base tour and Q&A from one of the active duty JAGs. Let you parents see first hand what day-to-day on an AFB is like. A lot of civilians also simply do not understand that combat arms positions are a world apart from staff positions - most assume that everyone wearing the uniform can moonlight as a Ranger or SEAL.

They also need to learn about deployments - your folks may assume you would be in some door-kicker position in the AOR. While there is always the risk of indirect fire on a FOB and Green-On-Blue, them understanding you are in legal/advisory role while deployed and realtively safe may go a long way.

This thread is a great place to learn about some aspects JAG service but the information you need to convince your folks is probably going to have to come from somewhere more direct.

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Ty Webb
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Re: Military Law

Postby Ty Webb » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:34 am

My dad provided some comfort to my mom by letting her know that I'm probably 4x more likely to get gunned down in the third ward of Houston (where my LS is) than in Kabul or Kandahar. And that I'm probably 10x as likely to get run over by an 18-wheeler on the interstate as I am to die in combat.

That made her feel better...and then it didn't.

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LazinessPerSe
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Re: Military Law

Postby LazinessPerSe » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:37 pm

I recently completed the interview with Navy JAG. What I'll let on for those still waiting (or the 0-1Ls here) is that the structured interview is not as intimidating as it seems. The best advice I can give to both practice for the interview and during the interview itself is to pay attention to real world problems you have encountered in your life or that you see and how you would "fix" them if you had the opportunity.

If anyone has any questions about the interview, feel free to ask. As a side, though, please don't ask what questions they posed. You'll have to do that leg work on your own.

xerxes
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Re: Military Law

Postby xerxes » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:44 pm

Current/ex military folks - anyone have some gouge on where to look for ratings/reviews/thoughts on Naval bases? Putting in my preferences for initial duty location, and have a list of places I'd like to get thoughts on. Thanks for any help!

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JCFindley
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Re: Military Law

Postby JCFindley » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:19 pm

xerxes wrote:Current/ex military folks - anyone have some gouge on where to look for ratings/reviews/thoughts on Naval bases? Putting in my preferences for initial duty location, and have a list of places I'd like to get thoughts on. Thanks for any help!



My dad was 26 yrs Navy and I have been to a LOT while in the usaf. Be happy to answer non-JAG Qs on any you have in mind.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:46 pm

xerxes wrote:Current/ex military folks - anyone have some gouge on where to look for ratings/reviews/thoughts on Naval bases? Putting in my preferences for initial duty location, and have a list of places I'd like to get thoughts on. Thanks for any help!

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about the base itself. Just pick a city you think would be fun to live in. You're going to move after 2 years anyway. That being said, I can probably answer any specific questions you have about most Navy bases.

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JCFindley
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Re: Military Law

Postby JCFindley » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:48 pm

brownshoe wrote:
xerxes wrote:Current/ex military folks - anyone have some gouge on where to look for ratings/reviews/thoughts on Naval bases? Putting in my preferences for initial duty location, and have a list of places I'd like to get thoughts on. Thanks for any help!

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about the base itself. Just pick a city you think would be fun to live in. You're going to move after 2 years anyway. That being said, I can probably answer any specific questions you have about most Navy bases.


Oh, and this......

It is the town much more than the base that makes or breaks an assignment.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:49 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Anyone have any experience with Robins in Warner Robins, GA? Particularly in regards to what JAGS are doing there.

I interned there. JC was correct. There is a huge civilian population working on base (off the top of my head, maybe 18,000 civilians and only ~2,000 military). With the small military presence, military justice wasn't terribly busy. It was a slow summer, and there were maybe 3 courts. There were maybe 3-4 officers doing military justice/adverse actions (besides the SJA and Deputy SJA). When I started, there was 1 ADC on base, but that got bumped to 2 before I left.

Everyone had a time slot during the week when they would go over to the legal assistance office and work there. I think we usually had 1 JAG officer working full-time at the legal assistance office, too, but I don't know if they always did that. There is a large retirement population there, and the legal assistance office seemed really busy. I think there were 4 full-time civilian attorneys working in the legal assistance office.

There was a large group of civilian attorneys (my guess would be in the 12-15 range), several of which were retired JAG officers, but there were also a few that came straight out of law school. We had 1 JAG officer working in the labor section and 1 working in contracting. One of these guys would help out with courts too. We also had a separate reserve JAG office at the time, but I never went over there and didn't really know what they did.

If you have other questions about Robins or Warner Robins, just let me know.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:49 pm

LazinessPerSe wrote:I recently completed the interview with Navy JAG. What I'll let on for those still waiting (or the 0-1Ls here) is that the structured interview is not as intimidating as it seems. The best advice I can give to both practice for the interview and during the interview itself is to pay attention to real world problems you have encountered in your life or that you see and how you would "fix" them if you had the opportunity.

If anyone has any questions about the interview, feel free to ask. As a side, though, please don't ask what questions they posed. You'll have to do that leg work on your own.


Did mine today too. It was not intimidating in the least. It was actually fun in some regards.

Also, I located this on google:

http://www.jag.navy.mil/library/instruc ... 150-1C.pdf

It looks like, if they do a prescreening board, they can establish a cutoff percentile and then give everyone a composite number, based on their LSAT percentile (40%) and their interview score (60%). Whoever makes the cut, then goes on to the next round, where they analyze your app more closely? I dunno. I thought my interview went well. We'll see in December/January.

Starscream15
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Re: Military Law

Postby Starscream15 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:11 am

Just wanted to post regarding AF JAG assignments. I just accepted my station and it was my 3rd domestic choice. Unlike previously stated, only one base was offered. When I was called I was asked what I thought about X base and if I would like to be stationed there. I was not told if any other option. I said I was happy to go to X as it was one of my top choices. I was told to think it over and talk to my fam/spouse and confirm the next day. So no two choices anymore just FYI. It was not a take it or leave it discussion but felt like the base was being suggested for a reason.

Good luck to all the applicants. I leave for COT in 12 days. Getting excited and a little nervous. I have shin splints right now but they arent too bad. My current PT score/self test is good but kind of concerned about any long runs. Oh well just going to suck it up and bring icy hot lol.

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JCFindley
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Re: Military Law

Postby JCFindley » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:11 pm

Starscream15 wrote:Just wanted to post regarding AF JAG assignments. I just accepted my station and it was my 3rd domestic choice. Unlike previously stated, only one base was offered. When I was called I was asked what I thought about X base and if I would like to be stationed there. I was not told if any other option. I said I was happy to go to X as it was one of my top choices. I was told to think it over and talk to my fam/spouse and confirm the next day. So no two choices anymore just FYI. It was not a take it or leave it discussion but felt like the base was being suggested for a reason.

Good luck to all the applicants. I leave for COT in 12 days. Getting excited and a little nervous. I have shin splints right now but they arent too bad. My current PT score/self test is good but kind of concerned about any long runs. Oh well just going to suck it up and bring icy hot lol.


Good luck and congrats!

I am pretty familiar with most USAF bases so feel free to PM if you want any first hand info. (Assuming I actually do know anything about it.)

balzie94
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Re: Military Law

Postby balzie94 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:36 pm

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Last edited by balzie94 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:00 pm

balzie94 wrote:Huh. So this answers the question about the importance of the LSAT in Navy JAG. Answer: It's significant. That said, I wonder if it plays much of a role beyond determining whether you move on to Level 2.


Yea, it seems to me that with Level 2, it's more a totality of the circumstances type judgment with the LSAT playing a much lesser role. At least that's the impression I get.

balzie94
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Re: Military Law

Postby balzie94 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:21 pm

FWIW, a friend of mine told me that when he was picked up by Navy, they told him specifically that he earned a perfect interview score. So maybe at Level 2 the interview score matters more. . .

Regardless, to determine how much the LSAT matters in practice, we need to know what the the average interview score is. That memo says the structured interview is scaled on a 0-60 scale. But do most candidates end up scoring 55+ every time? If so, the LSAT becomes extremely important. On the other hand, if the average candidate scores in the 40-50 range, a lower LSAT score can easily be overcome with a great interview.

Candidate A: Interview Score - 58/60; LSAT - 160 (78th percentile). (58) + (78* .4) = 89.2

Candidate B: Interview Score - 50/60; LSAT - 174 (95th percentile). (50) + (95 * .4) = 88

Candidate A (89.2) > Candidate B (88).

Thus, in the above scenario, if a score of 89 determined who moved on to Level 2, David (160 LSAT) beats Goliath (174 LSAT).
Last edited by balzie94 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:24 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:53 pm

balzie94 wrote:FWIW, a friend of mine told me that when he was picked up by Navy, they told him specifically that he earned a perfect interview score. So maybe at Level 2 the interview score matters more. . .

Regardless, to determine how much the LSAT matters in practice, we need to know what the the average interview score is. That memo says the structured interview is scaled on a 1-100 range. But do most candidates end up scoring 90+ every time? If so, the LSAT is extremely important. On the other hand, if the average candidate scores in the 70-75 range, a lower LSAT score can be overcome with a great interview.

Candidate A: Interview Score - 98; LSAT - 160 (78th percentile). (98 *.6) + (78* .4)

Candidate B: Interview Score - 85; LSAT - 174 (95th percentile). (85 * .6) + (95 * .4)

Candidate A (90) > Candidate B (89).

Thus, in the above scenario, if a score of 90 determined who moved on to Level 2, David (160 LSAT) beats Goliath (174 LSAT).


From my reading of the file, the maximum interview score is a 60. That raw score is taken and added to the LSAT percentile x .4. This then becomes your composite score.

I would copy and paste, but it doesn't let me. See page 17, point #5.

Edit: But yea, I'd agree that in stage 2, the SI would probably matter more.

balzie94
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Re: Military Law

Postby balzie94 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:48 pm

Ah, yes. I misread the scoring. 0-100 is combined LSAT and interview score.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:01 pm

balzie94 wrote:FWIW, a friend of mine told me that when he was picked up by Navy, they told him specifically that he earned a perfect interview score. So maybe at Level 2 the interview score matters more. . .

Regardless, to determine how much the LSAT matters in practice, we need to know what the the average interview score is. That memo says the structured interview is scaled on a 0-60 scale. But do most candidates end up scoring 55+ every time? If so, the LSAT is extremely important. On the other hand, if the average candidate scores in the 40-50 range, a lower LSAT score can be overcome with a great interview.

Candidate A: Interview Score - 58/60; LSAT - 160 (78th percentile). (58 *.6) + (78* .4)

Candidate B: Interview Score - 46/60; LSAT - 174 (95th percentile). (46 * .6) + (95 * .4)

Candidate A (66) > Candidate B (65.6).

Thus, in the above scenario, if a score of 66 determined who moved on to Level 2, David (160 LSAT) beats Goliath (174 LSAT).

I've conducted dozens of these interviews - maybe one or two scored over 50.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:58 pm

brownshoe wrote:I've conducted dozens of these interviews - maybe one or two scored over 50.


Interesting....

tgwwtkwtgn
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Re: Military Law

Postby tgwwtkwtgn » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:35 pm

I would be interested to see the interview score distribution.

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:28 am

Don't freak out too much about the LSAT, the PSB referenced above is not used often, typically they just go right to the accessions board. Most of the interviews I have done have been in the 35 point range. It is pretty tough to get a perfect score

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LazinessPerSe
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Re: Military Law

Postby LazinessPerSe » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:51 am

I called Navy Accessions and was told that the "whole person" concept applies to nearly every part of the application. The LCDR mentioned that the PSB was a rare occurrence, corroborating what NavyJag1 said.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:26 am

NavyJAG1 wrote:Don't freak out too much about the LSAT, the PSB referenced above is not used often, typically they just go right to the accessions board. Most of the interviews I have done have been in the 35 point range. It is pretty tough to get a perfect score


LazinessPerSe wrote:I called Navy Accessions and was told that the "whole person" concept applies to nearly every part of the application. The LCDR mentioned that the PSB was a rare occurrence, corroborating what NavyJag1 said.


Cool. Thanks for the heads up, NavyJAG1 and LazinessPerSe.

target
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Re: Military Law

Postby target » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:30 am

It would be helpful to know how many ppl move on to the second round as well. Say, if 75% of applicants move on to the second round, then, the LSAT score + the interview score matter a little less then the whole person criteria.

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:06 pm

target wrote:It would be helpful to know how many ppl move on to the second round as well. Say, if 75% of applicants move on to the second round, then, the LSAT score + the interview score matter a little less then the whole person criteria.


Again, this is not the typical scenario. In the vast majority of cases there is only one round, the accessions board. It is only if they do the ores creeping board that the equation mentioned above applies.

newbie_05
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Re: Military Law

Postby newbie_05 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:18 pm

Have an interview coming up with the AF. I just finished reading all 137 pages. Right about page 110 with all of the discussions regarding LSAT, School, and Rankings, I got extremely nervous. I really want to serve and believe I have a lot to offer as a “whole person” concept; however, considering the above, I am not sure if I have any chance to stand whatsoever :cry:.




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