Military Law

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Navy JAG app and JAG Corps

Postby Scotusnerd » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:36 pm

latinolaw wrote:#1: What is the "publication information" section on the Navy JAG app?
#2: Do the various JAG braches care whether I apply to other branches?


Read the thread for the answer to number 2. There's plenty of it around. Not so sure on #1, but I suggest applying a bit of mental elbow grease and figuring it out. It doesn't sound too hard.

QueueToo
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Re: Military Law

Postby QueueToo » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:41 am

transfer2014 wrote:Does anyone know if the Air Force 3L direct commission process is more competitive than the 2L one-year ROTC program or if the acceptance rates are similar?


When I applied to the One Year College Program, I was told somewhere between six and ten people were accepted. I believe the acceptance rate for 3L direct appointments is, while low, somewhere in the single digit percent range. Orders of magnitude higher than for the OYCP. So it's actually the other way; the 2L program is more competitive than the 3L program.

QueueToo
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Re: Navy JAG app and JAG Corps

Postby QueueToo » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:44 am

latinolaw wrote:#1: What is the "publication information" section on the Navy JAG app?
#2: Do the various JAG braches care whether I apply to other branches?


1) I can't pull up my old application but if I remember right it's about papers you've published. Are you on a journal? Is your note getting published? If so then that goes there. For most other applicants it will otherwise be blank. If, however, you published a paper with a faculty member in earlier schooling it would be appropriate here.

2) I don't believe so. I'm not sure that which other branches I was applying to ever came up in my interviews. It can go either way though. It either shows you really want to do JAG (which is good) or that you aren't as committed to one specific branch (which is less good). My friend who went to Westpoint advanced the tactic of applying to all of them and said that's what he did for the Academies because it creates inner-branch competition for you and makes one branch fear that if they don't grab you now, they may not get to have you. Hopefully that rambling nonsense I just typed was somewhat useful.

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:02 pm

transfer2014 wrote:I've got a quick question. My understanding is that AIR Force JAG tells you where you will initially be assigned before you have to accept your commission and make a commitment. Is this still true if you are accepted through the February boards in your 2L year? My hunch is no (because it is one-year ROTC and there is a stipend attached), but I was hoping someone could give me a definite answer.


I came in through OYCP. I can tell you this - theoretically, you have to go where they send you. We submit a dream sheet of our top 10 base choices, as well as top geographic preferences. EVERYONE that I know who did OYCP in my year group got something on their dream sheet (and I ended up meeting all of us - we are a very small group). That has not always been the case. OYCPers in the past have gotten stuck in less desirable bases.

The reason I say "theoretically" is that, even though I was assigned to somewhere on my list, I was still required to talk it over with my spouse before I gave them the thumbs up. This leads me to two assumptions, which may or may not be accurate:
1) you might even be able to talk JAX into assigning you to a different base (IF you have a good reason for it, something other than "Minot sounds cold and awful"); and/or
2) you can probably withdraw from the program if they assign you to a base you just can't go to for some reason.

For obvious reasons, #2 is not a desirable outcome, because you'd probably have to pay back all that ROTC stipend...I also wonder if they might make you take a different type of job (i.e. be a Force Support Officer or something).

Back in the day, DAPers got a choice between 2 bases before they definitively accepted their commission. That's not the case anymore (so I'm told), so don't count on that. And by the way, I have heard many people state, without joking, that Minot is actually awesome.

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:06 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Are there any bases that a new air force JAG is totally unlikely to receive if they put them on their "dream sheet"?

In particular, are Travis, Lackland, and Andrews LOL worthy?


Every base needs new baby JAGs (or JAG-lets, as I like to call them). I know new JAGs at Lackland and Andrews. I don't really know anyone at Travis.

Be warned that just because a base is in cool place doesn't mean that it's all grins and fun times. Lackland and Andrews are two super busy base legal offices and both are relatively big. Lackland has a crazy military justice load. Andrews has a crazy civil/general law load coupled with an at-times crazy justice load.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:24 pm

allAF wrote:Back in the day, DAPers got a choice between 2 bases before they definitively accepted their commission. That's not the case anymore (so I'm told), so don't count on that. And by the way, I have heard many people state, without joking, that Minot is actually awesome.


I had lunch today with a JAG from the office I'm currently interning at and he said the exact same thing. He was able to choose between 2 places, but that is not the case anymore. He also said everyone he's talked to who went to Minot liked it a lot.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:07 pm

allAF wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Are there any bases that a new air force JAG is totally unlikely to receive if they put them on their "dream sheet"?

In particular, are Travis, Lackland, and Andrews LOL worthy?


Every base needs new baby JAGs (or JAG-lets, as I like to call them). I know new JAGs at Lackland and Andrews. I don't really know anyone at Travis.

Be warned that just because a base is in cool place doesn't mean that it's all grins and fun times. Lackland and Andrews are two super busy base legal offices and both are relatively big. Lackland has a crazy military justice load. Andrews has a crazy civil/general law load coupled with an at-times crazy justice load.


Agreed in all regards to Lackland and Andrews. My friends at Lackland JA are being worked like rented mules but are getting simply insane amounts of MJ experience. I don't think any other base can compare to their volume - a base worth requesting if you have ADC ambitions.

Travis is also a larger legal office that picks up plenty of first tour JAGs. Not a bad call to have them on your dream sheet. I had my PRK eye surgery up there - great area.

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JCFindley
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Re: Military Law

Postby JCFindley » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:23 pm

bouakedojo wrote:
I had lunch today with a JAG from the office I'm currently interning at and he said the exact same thing. He was able to choose between 2 places, but that is not the case anymore. He also said everyone he's talked to who went to Minot liked it a lot.


It is one of the few bases with absolutely NO redeeming value. Here is the deal with the remote bases though; the military members end up being MUCH closer to each other and everyone ends up liking it and having fond memories.

I used to have a rule that I NEVER planned to land anywhere to get fuel where I wouldn't mind spending a week if we broke. There are only three bases still open that were on that list. Minot, Grand Forks, and Laughflin in Del Rio TX. There are a few others that are a little remote depending on your tastes. Columbus MS comes to mind as does Vance in Enid OK.

When it comes down to it though, there are no really horrible Air Force bases anymore.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:14 am

JCFindley wrote:I used to have a rule that I NEVER planned to land anywhere to get fuel where I wouldn't mind spending a week if we broke.
This earns you an "outstanding" on headwork for your x-country evaluation :P

JCFindley wrote:When it comes down to it though, there are no really horrible Air Force bases anymore.
Unless you compare them to Navy bases. 8) A buddy of mine who selected Navy JAG just found out he "had" to go to Jacksonville FL.

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JCFindley
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Re: Military Law

Postby JCFindley » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:28 am

Rotor wrote:
JCFindley wrote:I used to have a rule that I NEVER planned to land anywhere to get fuel where I wouldn't mind spending a week if we broke.
This earns you an "outstanding" on headwork for your x-country evaluation :P

JCFindley wrote:When it comes down to it though, there are no really horrible Air Force bases anymore.
Unless you compare them to Navy bases. 8) A buddy of mine who selected Navy JAG just found out he "had" to go to Jacksonville FL.


And they all beat Yuma.

rakor
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Re: Military Law

Postby rakor » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:27 am

allAF wrote:
transfer2014 wrote:http://www.teenbar.net/showthread.php?1199-teenage-frustrationI've got a quick question. My understanding is that AIR Force JAG tells you where you will initially be assigned before you have to accept your commission and make a commitment. Is this still true if you are accepted through the February boards in your 2L year? My hunch is no (because it is one-year ROTC and there is a stipend attached), but I was hoping someone could give me a definite answer.


I came in through OYCP. I can tell you this - theoretically, you have to go where they send you. We submit a dream sheet of our top 10 base choices, as well as top geographic preferences. EVERYONE that I know who did OYCP in my year group got something on their dream sheet (and I ended up meeting all of us - we are a very small group). That has not always been the case. OYCPers in the past have gotten stuck in less desirable bases.

The reason I say "theoretically" is that, even though I was assigned to somewhere on my list, I was still required to talk it over with my spouse before I gave them the thumbs up. This leads me to two assumptions, which may or may not be accurate:
1) you might even be able to talk JAX into assigning you to a different base (IF you have a good reason for it, something other than "Minot sounds cold and awful"); and/or
2) you can probably withdraw from the program if they assign you to a base you just can't go to for some reason.

For obvious reasons, #2 is not a desirable outcome, because you'd probably have to pay back all that ROTC stipend...I also wonder if they might make you take a different type of job (i.e. be a Force Support Officer or something).

Back in the day, DAPers got a choice between 2 bases before they definitively accepted their commission. That's not the case anymore (so I'm told), so don't count on that. And by the way, I have heard many people state, without joking, that Minot is actually awesome.


exept for the Ford case :| but yeah

arodtoo
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Re: Military Law

Postby arodtoo » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:26 pm

Do the navy and airforce jags also do any transactional work? I can't seem to find a clear indication on their website.

Is it not favorable to indicate that you are interested in both the transactional and litigation aspects (I have experience in both areas).

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:03 pm

JCFindley wrote:
bouakedojo wrote:
I had lunch today with a JAG from the office I'm currently interning at and he said the exact same thing. He was able to choose between 2 places, but that is not the case anymore. He also said everyone he's talked to who went to Minot liked it a lot.


It is one of the few bases with absolutely NO redeeming value. Here is the deal with the remote bases though; the military members end up being MUCH closer to each other and everyone ends up liking it and having fond memories.

I used to have a rule that I NEVER planned to land anywhere to get fuel where I wouldn't mind spending a week if we broke. There are only three bases still open that were on that list. Minot, Grand Forks, and Laughflin in Del Rio TX. There are a few others that are a little remote depending on your tastes. Columbus MS comes to mind as does Vance in Enid OK.

When it comes down to it though, there are no really horrible Air Force bases anymore.

Yeah, as a Navy bubba, I avoided those great plains states altogether. However, flying extensively in the south and west, I tried to avoid Meridian and Yuma at all costs...

BetterCallSaul!
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Re: Military Law

Postby BetterCallSaul! » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:49 am

arodtoo wrote:Do the navy and airforce jags also do any transactional work? I can't seem to find a clear indication on their website.

Is it not favorable to indicate that you are interested in both the transactional and litigation aspects (I have experience in both areas).

From what I understand, the AF is engaged in heavy transactional work -- contracting, procurement, etc. In interviewing with my SJA, I gather the AF just wants to make sure that every JAG can prosecute a case (hence, the litigation component).

I don't think it would be harmful to indicate that you are interested in both the transactional and litigation aspects per se. If you just indicated that you are interested in transactional, then I think it would be frowned upon.

In addition to the litigious component of being a JA, I am interested in going into administrative law as I've heard very good things about it from current AF JAGs (aside from admin law being the worst course at my school!!)

FikazsuK
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Re: Military Law

Postby FikazsuK » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:21 am

Jredelman15 wrote:Currently a 0L applying to law school next month. Can someone speak to the exit options for JAG? I am concerned with government, biglaw, and politics. If it is possible can you speak about what big government jobs are likely after JAG, any anecdotal is also appreciated. My grandfather was a Lt. Colonel in the Marines would this help?


I'm in the same boat. Particularly interested in becoming an AUSA after JAG. If anyone could shed some light on JAG exit options, it would be greatly appreciated. (Sorry if it's been brought up before.)

thomas7669
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Re: Military Law

Postby thomas7669 » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:59 pm

I have read that JAG can lead to ADA and AUSA positions in smaller less competitive districts. However it is going to be hard to get something like Manhattan DAs office. Biglaw is also probably not likely(but he said a lot of JAGs arent interested in big law, so they never tried).

That is just what I read from a JAG taking questions on another forum.

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:52 pm

thomas7669 wrote:I have read that JAG can lead to ADA and AUSA positions in smaller less competitive districts. However it is going to be hard to get something like Manhattan DAs office. Biglaw is also probably not likely(but he said a lot of JAGs arent interested in big law, so they never tried).

That is just what I read from a JAG taking questions on another forum.

Half the AUSAs at my summer internship were former JAG it seemed like...

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:29 pm

BetterCallSaul! wrote:
arodtoo wrote:Do the navy and airforce jags also do any transactional work? I can't seem to find a clear indication on their website.

Is it not favorable to indicate that you are interested in both the transactional and litigation aspects (I have experience in both areas).

From what I understand, the AF is engaged in heavy transactional work -- contracting, procurement, etc. In interviewing with my SJA, I gather the AF just wants to make sure that every JAG can prosecute a case (hence, the litigation component).

I don't think it would be harmful to indicate that you are interested in both the transactional and litigation aspects per se. If you just indicated that you are interested in transactional, then I think it would be frowned upon.

In addition to the litigious component of being a JA, I am interested in going into administrative law as I've heard very good things about it from current AF JAGs (aside from admin law being the worst course at my school!!)


There is plenty of non-criminal stuff out there. We have directorates that cover international law, operations law, environmental law, labor law, contracting (related to acquisitions/procurement/military fiscal law, not UCC), acquisitions/procurement, fiscal, etc.

Something worth distinguishing is the first four year hitch versus all the career options after that. The template is two assignments at Base Legal Offices, each two years, with each year within split between military justice (criminal) and civil. Your first tour will have you running a section within a division (the adverse actions section with the military justice division) and your second tour will have you running the civil or military justice division. There can be a lot of deviations from this template but it is probably the easiest way to distill how things end up for 80% of the JAGs out there.

As I posted about before, the exact nature of those four years will be determined heavily by your base's mission. Some bases are heavy on justice, others on civil. Regardless, you will be seasoned on all areas by the time you get done.

I say this because it is important to know you will be forced into areas outside of your comfort zone and interests. Litigators are going to be stuck doing contracts and fiscal; admin law nerds are going to be put into the courtroom to litigate. You cannot go into the job thinking you will focus on the areas on wihich you want to focus - you'll largely be a jack of all trades, master of none. Once you clear the first four years, you then can specialize more. Those who distinguished themselves in the courtroom can be selected as an Area Defense Counsel. Those that want to pursue Environmental can put in for a position at the Environmental Law Field Support Center. And so on.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:43 pm

FikazsuK wrote:
Jredelman15 wrote:Currently a 0L applying to law school next month. Can someone speak to the exit options for JAG? I am concerned with government, biglaw, and politics. If it is possible can you speak about what big government jobs are likely after JAG, any anecdotal is also appreciated. My grandfather was a Lt. Colonel in the Marines would this help?


I'm in the same boat. Particularly interested in becoming an AUSA after JAG. If anyone could shed some light on JAG exit options, it would be greatly appreciated. (Sorry if it's been brought up before.)


I think you will have a tough time getting any solid information on this. I'm coming on my four year mark and I'm still trying to figure it all out.

I constantly have well meaning civilians telling me how marketable I will be as a Fed attorney but until some SES/GS-15 tells me this while giving me a job offer, I remain skeptical. I personally have friends that separated and went to DOD General Counsel, ICE, and SSA. I know several former Senior Trial Counsel and Senior Defense Counsel that hung out their own shingle to focus on military defense work as civilians. They make an absolute killing.

With my trial experience, I feel like USAO outside of the insanely competitive districts (SDNY, etc) should be realistic, but who knows.

leedleed
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Re: Military Law

Postby leedleed » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:28 pm

spleenworship wrote:
thomas7669 wrote:I have read that JAG can lead to ADA and AUSA positions in smaller less competitive districts. However it is going to be hard to get something like Manhattan DAs office. Biglaw is also probably not likely(but he said a lot of JAGs arent interested in big law, so they never tried).

That is just what I read from a JAG taking questions on another forum.

Half the AUSAs at my summer internship were former JAG it seemed like...


Which US Attorney's office?

ksllaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby ksllaw » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:58 am

a.) How are JAG salaries generally?

b.) Is it an LRAP eligible position?

c.) Is it at all possible to migrate into JAG later in one's career (post biglaw, e.g.)? It seems everyone is saying the best option is to go directly from out of law school?

and, finally,

d.) How difficult would you rate getting into JAG compared to getting into biglaw, federal clerkships, and top public interest work? Is it generally easier, harder, or about the same?

Thanks very much!

transfer2014
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Re: Military Law

Postby transfer2014 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:27 pm

I'm about to start talking to recruiters. What is the etiquette for addressing officers I'm talking to? Should I use their ranks?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:57 pm

transfer2014 wrote:I'm about to start talking to recruiters. What is the etiquette for addressing officers I'm talking to? Should I use their ranks?


You can never go wrong with rank and last name.

Each branch has their own quirks with how you verbally address both officers and enlisted. You should look into this depending on who you are talking to. For example, an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel (O-5) is addressed simply as "Colonel ___" in normal/informal settings but you would make the distinction in written correspondence.

Also keep in mind rank abbreviations are not standardized across the services. A Captain becomes "Capt" in the USAF, CPT in the Army, "Capt." (with the period) in the Marines, and CAPT in the Navy (also worth noting that a Navy Captain is an O-6, equivalent to a full Colonel, while the rank refers to an O-3 in the other branches).

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thementor31337
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Re: Military Law

Postby thementor31337 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:47 pm

transfer2014 wrote:I'm about to start talking to recruiters. What is the etiquette for addressing officers I'm talking to? Should I use their ranks?


You can also never go wrong with Ma'am or Sir. I've found that if you're unsure about which rank they are or how that corresponds to the branch of service (Capt. for example), Sir or Ma'am is a winner. Plus from my experience (5yrs enlisted USMC, now GS hoping to do reserve JAG after LS), you'll always be calling higher ranking officers Sir or Ma'am in the workplace.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:26 am

ksllaw, your questions are answered throughout this thread, but I'll try to answer quickly and get you pointed in the right direction.

ksllaw wrote:a.) How are JAG salaries generally?


It's best to look at the compensation as a whole rather than just salary. You will generally come in as an O-2 and move up to an O-3 relatively soon (after 6 months in the Air Force, but I think it's longer in the Navy, for example). You can look these up on military pay charts online (O-2 is around $40k per year, O-3 is around $45k). You can also check out the charts to see how the pay advances.

You also get BAH and BAS, both of which are not counted as income. This can range from $1,500-$2,000 per month for a lot of markets, depending on location, rank, and family size. So this can be an extra $18k-24k per year, tax free. On top of this, medical is covered, which will save several thousand per year. Some of the branches offer student loan repayment plans worth up to $65,000 during your first 4 years. If you stay in for 20 years, retirement is also available.

As an example, I, as a married guy in Atlanta with no children, would have to make around $75-80k in the private sector here in Atlanta to match my take-home pay as an O-2, and that doesn't factor in the possible $65k in SLRP funds or the value of retirement if I were to stay in that long.

b.) Is it an LRAP eligible position?

I am not that familiar with LRAP programs, but my recollection is that it is for most. Certainly check with your school's program to be sure.

There are other alternatives, such as the $65k in SLRP funds for the Army and Air Force, and IBR & PSLF are available for all branches. Note that your income IBR is based off of would not include the BAH & BAS, making your IBR payment that of someone making $40k a year (to start) instead of that of someone making $70-80k.

c.) Is it at all possible to migrate into JAG later in one's career (post biglaw, e.g.)? It seems everyone is saying the best option is to go directly from out of law school?

Yes, I don't know if this is a terribly common way, but I have met many people who had pre-JAG legal careers, even ex-biglaw employees. One concern is age - the max at the time of commissioning is 35 for the Air Force and 42 for the Navy and Army. Another concern is explaining why you would want to make the switch (but explaining "why JAG?" is a hurdle for about everyone). A final concern is that JAG is often looking for people with trial skills (some branches more so than others), so 4 years of never seeing a client or a courtroom while working for a large law firm wouldn't necessarily be a bonus. I have probably heard of more ex-trial lawyers and people who have worked for PD/DA offices than anything. My only suggestion is that if you want to do JAG, go ahead and aim for it as soon as you can, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways.

d.) How difficult would you rate getting into JAG compared to getting into biglaw, federal clerkships, and top public interest work? Is it generally easier, harder, or about the same?

The recent selection rates seem to still be less than 10%, and often significantly less. The important thing is that the selection process is different. For most legal jobs, you can calculate your odds of getting the job mostly from knowing your school and class rank. Other factors are fairly consistent for the prestigious jobs too. But the military is looking for someone who can be a successful attorney and who can also be a successful officer - two roles requiring different traits.

JAG officers come from every law school in the nation, and there seems to be little correlation between US News rank and a student's chances at getting into a JAG corps. This has been covered in this thread, so start making your way through it. But the main point is that the hiring focus is different, so having a legitimate shot at being a SCOTUS clerk will not alone get you selected.




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