Military Law

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LazinessPerSe
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Re: Military Law

Postby LazinessPerSe » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:48 am

In the effort of trying to cover all bases - can anyone speak right now about the hiring rates of non-JAG USN Officers? i.e. Is a back-up plan of using a law degree as an advanced degree for application to Navy Intelligence or Supply a good alternative in this current lean-military time?

(Assuming the status quo here - not going to get into the possibility of Navy spending and expansion going nuts with a new president).

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:23 am

LazinessPerSe wrote:In the effort of trying to cover all bases - can anyone speak right now about the hiring rates of non-JAG USN Officers? i.e. Is a back-up plan of using a law degree as an advanced degree for application to Navy Intelligence or Supply a good alternative in this current lean-military time?

(Assuming the status quo here - not going to get into the possibility of Navy spending and expansion going nuts with a new president).


Best bet is to talk to an officer recruiter. The numbers change throughout the month. The Navy is supposedly downsizing officers at this point, but even so there may be communities that are short. What is your undergrad in? Is it a BA or BS?

newbie_05
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Re: Military Law

Postby newbie_05 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:40 am

On the AF Advocate Applicant Information Form, they are asking mental health history questions and credit history, how many years back should I cover? I looked at security clearance form 86 and the form goes 7 years back. Does that mean that I should cover only previous 7 years? Would the investigator really go and check every doctor I been to?

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:20 pm

newbie_05 wrote:On the AF Advocate Applicant Information Form, they are asking mental health history questions and credit history, how many years back should I cover? I looked at security clearance form 86 and the form goes 7 years back. Does that mean that I should cover only previous 7 years? Would the investigator really go and check every doctor I been to?


Maybe there is other guidance, but if they don't say to only go back X number of years on the form itself, put down everything. The instructions tell you to explain every "yes" or whatever, so do that (honestly, of course). Even if it sounds ridiculous to include going to see a therapist when your parents divorced when you were 11 years old, still include it, but explain it. Same with the credit stuff. If you can honestly and reasonably explain what happened, most things are not a huge deal.

I spent a couple of weeks this summer trying to find records from 15+ years ago, so they do care about these things. Pain in the ass, but everything turned out fine.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:21 pm

Does anyone know when the 2L AF summer internship apps go up? It says on the website September or October, but I was wondering if things have changed.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:24 pm

NavyJAG1 wrote:For the Navy - you will have a structured interview. Every single candidate is asked the same series of questions and scored based on the result. It is completely different from a normal interview. Without divulging too much, you will be given a number of scenarios and have to develop solutions to problems.

There will be some time at the end for an informal discussion - but at that point the interview is essentially over.


Without divulging too much, is there any recommendations for how to prepare for this or is there even a way to prepare?

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:30 pm

bouakedojo wrote:Does anyone know when the 2L AF summer internship apps go up? It says on the website September or October, but I was wondering if things have changed.


It seems to change from year to year. It looks like it wasn't up until January this past school year. The year before, I applied in early/mid November, so it can vary quite a bit.

BetterCallSaul!
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Re: Military Law

Postby BetterCallSaul! » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:53 pm

Anyone else going for the AF October DAP board?

Hoping that the fourth time is a charm!

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LazinessPerSe
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Re: Military Law

Postby LazinessPerSe » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:44 pm

NavyJAG1 wrote:
LazinessPerSe wrote:In the effort of trying to cover all bases - can anyone speak right now about the hiring rates of non-JAG USN Officers? i.e. Is a back-up plan of using a law degree as an advanced degree for application to Navy Intelligence or Supply a good alternative in this current lean-military time?

(Assuming the status quo here - not going to get into the possibility of Navy spending and expansion going nuts with a new president).


Best bet is to talk to an officer recruiter. The numbers change throughout the month. The Navy is supposedly downsizing officers at this point, but even so there may be communities that are short. What is your undergrad in? Is it a BA or BS?


BA in Business, 3.77 MCL. Law degree makes me a great candidate for Supply or Intel, but obviously JAG is the primary goal.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:12 pm

howell wrote:
bouakedojo wrote:Does anyone know when the 2L AF summer internship apps go up? It says on the website September or October, but I was wondering if things have changed.


It seems to change from year to year. It looks like it wasn't up until January this past school year. The year before, I applied in early/mid November, so it can vary quite a bit.


Interesting. Thanks!

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:53 pm

I'm starting to compile the information in this thread into a single document. First thought: there's a lot.

My process involves first mostly copying and pasting posts into a Word document, creating headings as I go. I will then try to synthesize each section, then reorganize. After that, I will try to update the document with anything I can pull from other sources (e.g., if we didn't clearly lay out the application to the AF GLP, then I can pull the application process details from the AF JAG website) and whatever else I can add. Then synthesize again, reorganize, rinse, repeat.

I expect there will be some quotes from posters and a lot of paraphrasing. I have never compiled a forum thread, so I don't know how that should work. Suggestions are certainly welcome.

If you don't hear from me with progress within a month, feel free to nag me. I might need it. If anyone else would rather do this or if anyone has already started, just let me know. I have no problem passing off whatever I finish to someone else if it helps. I'm doing this because I think it should be done. We have a wealth of info here, and making it more manageable will increase its availability. When I finish or get close to finishing (assuming someone else doesn't grab the torch from me), I'll run it by Ken to see if he thinks it's something that could be added to the site or presented in a better way than a link in this thread to a Google doc or something. I would just like to be able to point students interested in JAG to a single source that has as much info as possible.

transfer2014
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Re: Military Law

Postby transfer2014 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:40 pm

howell wrote:I'm starting to compile the information in this thread into a single document. First thought: there's a lot.

My process involves first mostly copying and pasting posts into a Word document, creating headings as I go. I will then try to synthesize each section, then reorganize. After that, I will try to update the document with anything I can pull from other sources (e.g., if we didn't clearly lay out the application to the AF GLP, then I can pull the application process details from the AF JAG website) and whatever else I can add. Then synthesize again, reorganize, rinse, repeat.

I expect there will be some quotes from posters and a lot of paraphrasing. I have never compiled a forum thread, so I don't know how that should work. Suggestions are certainly welcome.

If you don't hear from me with progress within a month, feel free to nag me. I might need it. If anyone else would rather do this or if anyone has already started, just let me know. I have no problem passing off whatever I finish to someone else if it helps. I'm doing this because I think it should be done. We have a wealth of info here, and making it more manageable will increase its availability. When I finish or get close to finishing (assuming someone else doesn't grab the torch from me), I'll run it by Ken to see if he thinks it's something that could be added to the site or presented in a better way than a link in this thread to a Google doc or something. I would just like to be able to point students interested in JAG to a single source that has as much info as possible.


Thank you very much for this.

I've got a quick question. My understanding is that AIR Force JAG tells you where you will initially be assigned before you have to accept your commission and make a commitment. Is this still true if you are accepted through the February boards in your 2L year? My hunch is no (because it is one-year ROTC and there is a stipend attached), but I was hoping someone could give me a definite answer.
Last edited by transfer2014 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Military Law

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:43 pm

I spoke to a air force recruiter who confirmed your suspicions. No, once you are accepted to the ROTC 1-year program you have accepted an air force service. They tell you where to go after that.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:31 pm

bouakedojo wrote:
NavyJAG1 wrote:For the Navy - you will have a structured interview. Every single candidate is asked the same series of questions and scored based on the result. It is completely different from a normal interview. Without divulging too much, you will be given a number of scenarios and have to develop solutions to problems.

There will be some time at the end for an informal discussion - but at that point the interview is essentially over.


Without divulging too much, is there any recommendations for how to prepare for this or is there even a way to prepare?



+1

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:11 am

Kobe_Teeth wrote:
bouakedojo wrote:
NavyJAG1 wrote:For the Navy - you will have a structured interview. Every single candidate is asked the same series of questions and scored based on the result. It is completely different from a normal interview. Without divulging too much, you will be given a number of scenarios and have to develop solutions to problems.

There will be some time at the end for an informal discussion - but at that point the interview is essentially over.


Without divulging too much, is there any recommendations for how to prepare for this or is there even a way to prepare?



+1


Think of the questions as issue spotters. Do not feel that you have to begin speaking as soon as the question is read - you can take time to think about your answer and even diagram it on note paper. While you are talking, the interviewers will be taking copious notes and likely not making much eye contact. This is all part of the process.

BetterCallSaul!
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Re: Military Law

Postby BetterCallSaul! » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:03 am

Current Judge Advocates,

Regarding the threat of legal action for No Easy Day, does the UCMJ provide for any cause of action by Judge Advocates? I realize the author is retired and the suit would probably be brought by the DoD but I was just curious...

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:57 pm

BetterCallSaul! wrote:Current Judge Advocates,

Regarding the threat of legal action for No Easy Day, does the UCMJ provide for any cause of action by Judge Advocates? I realize the author is retired and the suit would probably be brought by the DoD but I was just curious...


JAGs do not have independent "executive" legal authority like a civilian District Attorney might. The Commanders run the show and we advise. The Commanders at the Wing, NAF, Center, and MAJCOM level (for the USAF) have a special legal status under the UCMJ as Convening Authorities - they are the only ones that have the authority to convene a court-martial. Unlike Art III Fed Courts, which are "open" all the time, courts-martial under Art I have to be convened, or opened, each time a proceeding is to occur. The Convening Authority literally orders this through a piece of paper known as a Convening Order. There is only one true Commander within the AF JAG Corps - the Commander of the Air Force Legal Operations Agency

So in short, while the service TJAGs and SJAs to SOCOM, JSOC, NAVSOC, and the other affiliated commands have no doubt given a ton of legal advice/opinion, none of them have the authority to pull the trigger on any action against any author/publisher.

Practically speaking, the member would have to be brought out of retirement, back onto active duty, for the Navy to have jurisdiction. This is highly unlikely. Further, any national security type case is a hornet's nest to prosecute because it requires a ton of classified material to be put out there in the first place. For the quiet professionals that keep secrets for a living, the juice is rarely worth the squeeze.

BetterCallSaul!
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Re: Military Law

Postby BetterCallSaul! » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:15 pm

Cheers, much appreciated.

BetterCallSaul! wrote:Practically speaking, the member would have to be brought out of retirement, back onto active duty, for the Navy to have jurisdiction. This is highly unlikely. Further, any national security type case is a hornet's nest to prosecute because it requires a ton of classified material to be put out there in the first place. For the quiet professionals that keep secrets for a living, the juice is rarely worth the squeeze.


This reminds me of Nelson Demille's Word of Honor. A good read if y'all haven't already!

ksllaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby ksllaw » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:12 pm

It seems from reading what others have written that obtaining a military lawyer position does not necessarily correlate with law school prestige (T14)/grades (top of class) is that correct?

In other words, being a Yale law graduate would not necessarily guarantee you a spot in JAG over a William & Mary law graduate (of relatively equal academic standing at their respective institutions)? Instead, there are "other" criteria? If so, what are these other criteria?

And, do the criteria favor any big law experience, for example?

Are military lawyer jobs most easily or normally obtained directly out of law school or with some experience after law school. If with experience, then what type would be best?

Thanks everyone!!! Greatly appreciate the feedback!

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:45 pm

ksllaw wrote:It seems from reading what others have written that obtaining a military lawyer position does not necessarily correlate with law school prestige (T14)/grades (top of class) is that correct?

In other words, being a Yale law graduate would not necessarily guarantee you a spot in JAG over a William & Mary law graduate (of relatively equal academic standing at their respective institutions)?


School is not very relevant. Here's a sample of quotes from the first 15 pages of this thread:


As long as it is ABA accredited they don't care if your degree says Yale or Cooley.

Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=100>


JAG is much less concerned about where you go to school than most other employers. Those are all great schools - personally, I would go to the one that put me the least in debt. Regarding the classes - it couldn't hurt to take those you mentioned, but my interviewer didn't seem too concerned with what types of classes I was taking. If anything, they like to see courses that get you ready (in theory) to try cases - trial practice, evidence, crim. pro, etc, which are offered everywhere.

Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=175>

I do not see these schools having any real impact on your JAG career. They are all solid T25 level programs, none head and shoulders above the other. My class at JASOC had literally everything from HYS to T4. Our instructors were similarly credentialed. Kind of how your LSAT does not matter the moment you are admitted to law school, your law school does not have much impact on your JAG career. You will either sink or swim as a litigator or trial attorney, it does not matter what name is on that JD. 

Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=175>

As I've mentioned previously, Air Force JAG does not get caught up in the USNWR rankings game. There is no concentration of a certain rank of school, be it at the base level or the headquarters level. Military service requires a special sort of lawyer. The criteria that law firms rely on, namely law school rank and being on a law journal, do not jive with what is necessary for someone in uniform. 

My JASOC class has every type of school represented, from Harvard and NYU on down to T4s. You are very quickly judged on your abilities as a trial lawyer. No one gives a crap where you went to law school.

Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=200>

Don't know if this has been posted... but this is the active duty army selection for the fall 2008 board. It lists everyone and what schools they came from. So, as Bateman mentioned - no clear distribution.


Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=200>


None of the JAGs I've known have been T14. My closest JAG friend graduated from NYLS and is quite successful. (should easily make O-5 when the results are released soon).

Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=250>

It's not they think that he/she is a better student. But what is much more likely is that they think he/she will make a better officer. Of course, that is where the service is actually looking at the "whole-person," encompassing much more than grades.

Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=250>

At my present base, with among the largest base legal offices in terms of AD personnel, has a double Harvard grad as my immediate supervisor and a T4 grad as my SJA. That, in a nutshell, is the JAG Corps. We are an results oriented business, no one gets too excited about where your JD came from.

Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=250>

I talked to a JAG recruiter for the Air Force yesterday and went through some specifics about their selection process. I think I got pretty straight answers, which basically reconfirm everything the people in this thread have already said.

The #1 thing was the desire to serve as an Air Force JAG. #2 was public interest work. #3/#4 were grades and school. But, it didn't seem like school counted any more than grades. I agree that the first 2 recruiting points are probably the most important for what the various branches are looking at. But, there is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between a Top 10 school and a Tier 4 school. We get a lot of transfer students at Emory that were literally #1 or #2 in their class from a Tier 3, and they end up average or worse when they get here. I guess I harped on this before, but I agree with the public service aspect being really important. But if you are going to consider academics, then I don't see why they would not do it the right way.

Pasted from <http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=275>


ksllaw wrote:Instead, there are "other" criteria? If so, what are these other criteria?

And, do the criteria favor any big law experience, for example?


The bolded quote in my first list of quotes on school ranking summarizes this well. The military is looking for criteria that make good officers and criteria that make good lawyers in the military setting. A lot of these qualities are covered in the first 15 pages of the thread (and throughout). I can try to summarize it in the next day or two if no one else gets around to it. But the military really does look at the whole person, and it's not just about law school success. Law school success is good, but so is leadership, public service, some interest in being more athletic than a slug, trial experience or coursework/extracurriculars focusing on trial work, and other qualities. It also helps (as one Army JAG interviewer said) if your interviewer can picture being deployed with you and not hating it because of you. The subject of what the branches are looking for is one that I hope to have more to contribute on in the coming weeks, but the others can say it better than I can, so hopefully they will chime in.

Are military lawyer jobs most easily or normally obtained directly out of law school or with some experience after law school. If with experience, then what type would be best?


In general, during law school seems to be the best route, but there are minor exceptions. My general advice would be to start applying for internships and/or active duty positions as soon as you can get a decent application package together instead of holding off to get experience if this is what you decide you want to do.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:25 pm

Are there any bases that a new air force JAG is totally unlikely to receive if they put them on their "dream sheet"?

In particular, are Travis, Lackland, and Andrews LOL worthy?

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JCFindley
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Re: Military Law

Postby JCFindley » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:30 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Are there any bases that a new air force JAG is totally unlikely to receive if they put them on their "dream sheet"?

In particular, are Travis, Lackland, and Andrews LOL worthy?


The great thing about the JAG field is they have them at every base. You will have more at big depot/contractor rich bases (Eglin, Wright-Pat, Lackland etc.) and you will likely have more at various HQs, (Offet, Langly, Randolph, Pentagon etc) but for the most part, you will have a decent shot just about anywhere obviously depending on the needs of the AF. Now, the thing is that the better the local the more people will have it on their dream sheet but most USAF bases are nice and most are in nicer areas with a few notable exceptions. (Minot and Grand Forks come to mind of examples of my never EVER want to be there list.)

The three you mention are not LOL worthy but know that Minot and Columbus MS are also billets they have to fill.

Pogues
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Re: Military Law

Postby Pogues » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:02 am

In response to Howell's great post about school prestige, I would add only this "word of wisdom" from the SJA with whom I interviewed.

"We are not the Harvard Air Force, or the Yale Air Force, or the Stanford Air Force, we are the United States Air Force." I think the same could probably be said for Army, Navy, Marines, or Coast Guard.

transfer2014
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Re: Military Law

Postby transfer2014 » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:41 pm

Does anyone know if the Air Force 3L direct commission process is more competitive than the 2L one-year ROTC program or if the acceptance rates are similar?

latinolaw
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Navy JAG app and JAG Corps

Postby latinolaw » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:42 pm

#1: What is the "publication information" section on the Navy JAG app?
#2: Do the various JAG braches care whether I apply to other branches?




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