Military Law

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target
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Re: Military Law

Postby target » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:59 am

Can you speak a little bit more about the force-out process? I always assume that they would never force you out regardless of whether you get promoted or not.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:04 pm

shock259 wrote:PB:

Can you speak a little on how you can get to your 20 years in the AF? Who gets forced out when, what promotions must you get in order to keep moving up, etc.

I spoke with a Navy JAG a couple of days ago and she gave me the following info for the Navy. Here's how I remember the timeline:

When you come out of Naval Justice School, you are a LTJG. LTJG's get bumped up to LT's automatically within 2 years (maybe less). During your third year, you have to basically re-apply to the Navy (I forget the name of the board, but some kind of review board). You write a personal statement, interview, get evaluated by your peers/superior officers, etc. After this process, about 20-30% of JAGs are forced out. If you get forced out here, you'll be leaving at the 4 year mark.

After 4 years, the next big goal is to get promoted. You are eligible for 2 (and only 2) promotion boards to LCDR. If you are denied promotion at both of these boards, then you'll be forced out at the 8 year mark. You must hit LCDR for your 8 year review board.

After 8 years and LCDR, your next goal is to get promoted to CDR. Again, you'll have two promotion boards to get promoted or you'll be ineligible for CDR If you miss CDR, you won't be forced out of the Navy but you will be stuck at LCDR for the rest of your career and there is some stigma associated with that.

Is the Air Force similar? Does anyone else have any insight or thoughts?


With only four years in, I’m still getting my arms around this particular subject. I’d love any prior service folks to correct me if I stray off the reservation here.

For the traditional Direct Appointment accession into the JAG Corps:

You promote to O-3 six months after the day you leave for OTS. Last year (or maybe it was 2010) there was a continuation/retention board for the O-3s with roughly 4+ years in – the goal there was eliminate 5%-10% of that group. This was as the rest of the AF began downsizing. They also offered voluntary separation pay for anyone that wanted to get out. Enough people took the money where they did not have to involuntarily separate as many officers as they originally thought but there were still a handful that got the ax. Those folks usually were either just lousy JAGs or had some paperwork for DUI or other misconduct.

That continuation board has not been a reoccurring thing, though I would not be surprised if it became one. With everyone making Captain, there needs to be some sort of quality control that occurs before the Major selection board. Line Officers outside of JAG now have to undergo Central Selection Board for promotion from O-2 to O-3, with 95% making the cut.

Approximately five years after you pin on O-3, your leadership submits a Promotion Recommendation Form for your O-4 board. The PRF is composed of the best bullets from all your previous Performance Reports. That is more or less what the promotion board evaluates in deciding selection to O-4. We get two “looks” for selection to O-4: in the zone (the year you are supposed to be selected) and above the zone (a year past the year you were supposed to be selected). Roughly 90% of eligible JAG O-3s make the cut for O-4 that are in the zone. If passed over, there is still a chance for selection above the zone but it is uncommon. There is no below the zone (promoting a year early) for JAG O-4. Between the posting of the selection results and when one actually pins the rank on, you are generally looking at wearing O-3 for 6 years and change.

After roughly 5 years as an O-4, your PRF is submitted for the O-5 board. While there is technically a double below the zone (promoting two years early) for the Line, I cannot recall a JAG ever being selected for this. A very select few may make it one below the zone.

It used to be that if you were passed over for O-5, you could just ride out your 20 as a terminal O-4. There is now an annual continuation board for passed over O-4s that determines if they will be retained another year. While it is possible to make it to 20, the practical result is that you will be forced out if you are passed over for O-5.

target wrote:Can you speak a little bit more about the force-out process? I always assume that they would never force you out regardless of whether you get promoted or not.


It is an “up or out” system. If you are a non-select for O-4 or O-5, you are out before your 20. O-5s that do not make O-6 are already at 17 years in, so they will ride out O-5 until their 20.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:27 pm

Thanks so much, PB. Very informative.

Our accounts seem quite similar. I will follow up on some of the information I recieved to try and verify it. One discrepancy between our accouts is the fail rate for the first review/continuation board. 5-10% vs. 20-30%. Have a hard time believing that the Navy forces out so many more people than the Air Force. Perhaps the info I got was a little skewed. I'll get some more opinions and post back in a bit.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:18 pm

shock259 wrote:Thanks so much, PB. Very informative.

Our accounts seem quite similar. I will follow up on some of the information I recieved to try and verify it. One discrepancy between our accouts is the fail rate for the first review/continuation board. 5-10% vs. 20-30%. Have a hard time believing that the Navy forces out so many more people than the Air Force. Perhaps the info I got was a little skewed. I'll get some more opinions and post back in a bit.

What you heard is pretty close to accurate for the Navy. The board is the "Career Status Board," and it is held twice a year. You apply for it after you've been a JAG for 3 years. If you are not selected at the first board, you get one more look at the next board. If you're not selected, you will probably be forced out (so, then you are at the 4 year point). If I remember correctly, three boards ago and two boards ago the selection rate was 70%. The board that was just held was 85%. So those numbers were generally correct. Obviously, as the economy (hopefully) improves, fewer people will apply for CSB and the rates will go up.

Regarding promotion to O-4 - one big difference from PB's post on the AF is that the Navy's selection rate to O-4 has also been much lower. I think the last few boards it's been in the 70s. Same deal though - if you fail to select twice, you will be forced out. As you can see, it's been tough in the Navy the last few years.

xerxes
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Re: Military Law

Postby xerxes » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:20 pm

So question, do we have anyone here who has gone through ODS/NJS with the Navy? have some questions I wanted to PM.

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law

Postby Fed_Atty » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:36 am

xerxes wrote:So question, do we have anyone here who has gone through ODS/NJS with the Navy? have some questions I wanted to PM.


I went through OCS and then NJS. While I did not go through ODS, I have spoken with many of my colleagues who have gone through it.

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IHeartPhilly
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Re: Military Law

Postby IHeartPhilly » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:13 pm

This thread is a great read, and I'm currently working my way through it.

Im an 0L about to start school this Fall and am aiming for Navy/Army JAG. Quick question, and I hope it hasn't been glossed over yet (apologies if it has). Would a second language profiency (i/e: pashtun/arabic) be a marketable skill when applying for JAG? Or would this skill be irrelevant/no help?

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:35 pm

IHeartPhilly wrote:This thread is a great read, and I'm currently working my way through it.

Im an 0L about to start school this Fall and am aiming for Navy/Army JAG. Quick question, and I hope it hasn't been glossed over yet (apologies if it has). Would a second language profiency (i/e: pashtun/arabic) be a marketable skill when applying for JAG? Or would this skill be irrelevant/no help?

Probably but here's the best answer: it couldn't hurt.

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SemperLegal
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Re: Military Law

Postby SemperLegal » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:23 pm

shock259 wrote: (unless you join the Marines, in which case it actually is) ... (again, unless you join the Marines). ... (again, unless you join the Marines).


Just FYI, having done Marine Recruit Training, let me tell you that given enough time to prepare (60 days), a little heart, and no serious medical problems, anyone can pass Marine entry requirements. Drill Instructors are very good at turning civilians into Marines. They have been doing it for 237 years.

That being said, Marine SJAs (and I assume all other USMC JAGs) are expected to maintain a higher level of fitness than our less expeditious counselors due to a cultural difference (alluded to in the staff/line officer posts). However, its almost impossible not to do so (You get 1-2 hours off in the mornings to physically train, gym access, and some pretty knowledgeable workout partners/trainers).

Keep this a secret though; our PR machine spends a lot of time making us look like warriors right out of the womb.

Dasho
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Re: Military Law

Postby Dasho » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:05 pm

Great thread! I have spent some time reading it all. Thanks to all those who contribute. I just finished my 1L year and have been committed to Marine JAG for some time. I am recently married and am trying to get more info about training and deployment so I am give my family a heads up to what to expect. I have been visiting the MarineOCS website and found out there is a family day in week 9 of OCS where the candidates can see their family.
Is that the only day during the 10 weeks or are there others?

Also, what is the 6 month BI training like? Do married officers live with their wives? If not how often are visits allowed?

Finally, how long are Marine JAG deployments? I have heard multiple answers of the different threads I have visited (6 months to 12 months).

Again thank you for any answers given.

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Military Law

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:29 pm

.
Last edited by SchopenhauerFTW on Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rirruto
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rirruto » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:39 pm

Does anyone have any insight into whether any of the branches will allow you to defer for a year to do a state or federal clerkship? The Marines will allow you to request a deferral, but I can't find anything about any of the other programs either in this thread or elsewhere.

The Navy application for the fall board is up for anyone wanting to get a jump on filling it out.

Link to Marines allowing you to do clerkship or LLM for posterity. Under "Examination Requirements."
http://media.marines.com/uploads/document/plc_-_law_pathway.pdf

ZeroDay
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Re: Military Law

Postby ZeroDay » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:11 am

Rirruto wrote:Does anyone have any insight into whether any of the branches will allow you to defer for a year to do a state or federal clerkship?

Army JAGC may consider requests for a deferral of up to one year. I don't know if they consider requests every cycle, but I know they sometimes do. Also, I think they consider a clerkship a good reason to defer an applicant's start date. Keep in mind that you don't get accepted and then start the next day -- it will take at least several months but likely a year or longer for you to start with the Army, even without a deferral. My understanding is that they have three sets of training classes every year. One starts in February, another in July, and the last in October. And you have to pass a state bar and get a medical clearance before they can schedule you for a class. So, if you were to graduate from law school in May, then you'd go off to training the following year in either February, July, or October -- assuming you pass the bar and are cleared by the Medical Review Board.

clwilson6
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Re: Military Law

Postby clwilson6 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:21 pm

SchopenhauerFTW wrote:Are there no paralegals in the Marines? I know people who have been paralegals in the Army, but the only similar position in the USMC seems to be that of a legal services specialist.


The answer to that question is that they are both the same, just a different title. The work is pretty similar except I believe that the Marine legal specialist rotate throughout the different law offices pretty quickly. Paralegals in other services may stay within a particular legal specialty longer than most Marine paralegals. I may be off the mark but I spent 20 years as a legal specialist and interacted with my other service counterparts on many occasions.

clwilson6
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Re: Military Law

Postby clwilson6 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:28 pm

Dasho wrote:Finally, how long are Marine JAG deployments? I have heard multiple answers of the different threads I have visited (6 months to 12 months).


I've worked in JAG offices for 20 years and from my experience the answer is, it all depends. Generally, many JAG offices don't deploy in their entirety. Certain personnel in individual offices are assigned to deploying units and their deployment is based off of the deployment cycle of the unit their assigned to. Most deployments range between 9-12 months depending. However, most units aren't really active in theater for the full 9-12 months because of change overs near the end of the deployment cycle thereby sometimes only deploying for 6-9 months. I've seen JAG personnel that have been deployed up to 15 months but that is usually because some personnel wish to remain in theater (collect some extra cash, glory and experience) and get attached to other units in theater or other incoming units.

msanders44
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Re: Military Law

Postby msanders44 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:03 pm

Can someone explain the JAG process to me? I'm confused because I thought for undergrad you were a part of ROTC and then if you joined and were accepted while in law school you were JAG but it sounds like you don't join JAG until after you graduate law school. Can someone explain this please? And also what type of stats does someone usually have to have to get into JAG? Do they base it on GPA and LSAT, along with the obvious physical fitness, etc. or is it rank in law school, etc.?

target
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Re: Military Law

Postby target » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:22 pm

msanders44 wrote:Can someone explain the JAG process to me? I'm confused because I thought for undergrad you were a part of ROTC and then if you joined and were accepted while in law school you were JAG but it sounds like you don't join JAG until after you graduate law school. Can someone explain this please? And also what type of stats does someone usually have to have to get into JAG? Do they base it on GPA and LSAT, along with the obvious physical fitness, etc. or is it rank in law school, etc.?


you should start at page 1 and read on. All your questions have been thoroughly answered in previous pages. But to be responsive, you can join JAG while you are in law school, but you don't start serving until you graduate. For your second question, there is not good data on what it takes to get accepted. JAG looks at each component of your application.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:39 pm

target wrote:
msanders44 wrote:Can someone explain the JAG process to me? I'm confused because I thought for undergrad you were a part of ROTC and then if you joined and were accepted while in law school you were JAG but it sounds like you don't join JAG until after you graduate law school. Can someone explain this please? And also what type of stats does someone usually have to have to get into JAG? Do they base it on GPA and LSAT, along with the obvious physical fitness, etc. or is it rank in law school, etc.?


you should start at page 1 and read on. All your questions have been thoroughly answered in previous pages. But to be responsive, you can join JAG while you are in law school, but you don't start serving until you graduate. For your second question, there is not good data on what it takes to get accepted. JAG looks at each component of your application.


You let him off easy. I was going to go with:

Hey, you just posted here
And this is crazy
But you need to read the whole thread
And repost here, maybe?


--ImageRemoved--

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:46 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

So, so good.

msanders44
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Re: Military Law

Postby msanders44 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:30 pm

well considering there are 126 pages I don't have the time to read all of that I thought asking would be easier since the first couple pages didn't answer my questions

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spleenworship
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Re: Military Law

Postby spleenworship » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:54 pm

msanders44 wrote:well considering there are 126 pages I don't have the time to read all of that I thought asking would be easier since the first couple pages didn't answer my questions


First 10 pages answered 90% of my questions, and 100% of the ones I didn't know I had. Mastering "skimming for important info" is a skill that will serve you well as an attorney.

target
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Re: Military Law

Postby target » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:11 pm

msanders44 wrote:well considering there are 126 pages I don't have the time to read all of that I thought asking would be easier since the first couple pages didn't answer my questions


Dude, you are not even trying (to make up good excuses). Almost all Patrick's posts in the first two pages direct at what you asked.

msanders44
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Re: Military Law

Postby msanders44 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:11 pm

well considering people have said different things as to what it looked at the most when applying I wanted to know others opinions. And it really didn't explain what you are in law school, whether you are JAG or something else because I thought ROTC was for undergrad

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:20 pm

Most of the info is also available on the websites of the respective services if you don't want to read through this thread. :)

Best of luck to you.

msanders44
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Re: Military Law

Postby msanders44 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:36 pm

Thank you for being kind. I've looked at them and still have some questions but a recruiter is supposed to be contacting me within a couple days I was just wanting to see what people had to say on here.

shock259 wrote:Most of the info is also available on the websites of the respective services if you don't want to read through this thread. :)

Best of luck to you.




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