Military Law

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bobkat12
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Re: Military Law

Postby bobkat12 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:14 am

Thanks, Patrick Bateman and shock259, you guys always have really good advice. I'm really interested in the Navy and serving as an officer therein, and assume this situation applies to Navy as well. I guess the question is then military law or just military, which goes back to my concern in the original post -- I could conceivably do both, separately, serve first and then pursue law later on in the civilian world. How's that for gap year experience! 8)

Shock259, I am definitely interested in law, but there are still things I feel I need figure out about it before I commit to it. For me though, being an officer is something the runs really deep. I come from a family with long-reaching military roots -- no one was a big-time academy grad or anything like that, but I have a lot of officers (including my dad and his dad) and many WWII veterans. And while I'm not at an academy or being forced by my family that this is unequivocally what my destiny is, I feel strongly about keeping a tradition of service in my family, especially as an officer, and I'd like to someday reach my grandfather's rank of Major/Lt. Commander. JAG initially appealed to me because it meant being an officer and combing that with another interest of mine. I think I just need to think this through some more.

Quite frankly, this is a tough decision, but thanks again for the insight, it most certainly helps.

bobkat12
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Re: Military Law

Postby bobkat12 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:17 am

Rotor wrote:
bobkat12 wrote:Hi All,

I joined the forum a few months back, haven't looked at it in a while so I was surprised to find I was only a couple pages behind. Anyway, I have a question about pursuing JAG via the funded programs that are offered to current officers. As a matter of what I want to do with my life, I know I want to be an officer and have that experience, but I am really interested in law as well. I know this is TLS so the majority of folks on the forum are seeking their JD before the military and will apply to programs for law students and barred attorneys. I was wondering, however, if anyone could speak to the funded programs for officers. I've read the whole forum, and I know these programs were at least mentioned, however, I was hoping for some more detail. Are the officers selected for FLEP at a disadvantage to law students in terms of growth in the JAG Corps?

I feel that one of the pros about applying through FLEP is that your branch doesn't have to worry about wondering about your potential performance as an officer, which, by all accounts, is a big part of selection for law students/DA attorneys.

My main concern is that while law is something that people can get into later in life, being an officer has a narrow window for age, and I don't want to miss the boat for that. I'm just unsure about which path to take to becoming a Judge Advocate.
Most of my Navy JAG friends were FLEPers. I think that one of the advantages of FLEP is that you will qualify in a warfare specialty (surface warfare, pilot, submarine officer, etc.) before going to law school, which will give you a little bit of "street cred" by wearing a warfare pin.

HOWEVER! I would echo PB's warning not to join as an officer in hopes of back-dooring into JAG. For FY 13, Navy selected three (plus one alternate). http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/r ... V12090.txt. Note: In addition to the difficulty in just getting selected, you also have to be released by your old warfare specialty-- which isn't so easy for some areas. For example, there are no aviators on that list (nor did I ever know an aviator turned JAG despite what the TV show might have suggested was possible-- but that's anecdotal).

If you want to join to fly, drive ships/submarines, etc. great-- do that and enjoy serving. I did for 20+ years. You can try for JAG, but certainly don't count on it. But don't think you can't go back after serving-- even after a full career.

Edit: Seconding Shock, thirding PB


Rotor,

I was typing my response to PB and Shock259 and didn't see yours right away, but I wanted to thank you for advice as well. You all have been very helpful and I'm very grateful.

bobkat12
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Re: Military Law

Postby bobkat12 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:20 am

P.S. Given the above exchange, I'm curious as to what makes funded legal so competitive/difficult to achieve? Is it simply in virtue of the fact that they only offer a couple of spots a year a supplement to the majority of Judge Advocates they get from law school/DA, or are the people applying simply outstanding candidates? I'm also curious as to how the selectors assess your potential as a lawyer since you aren't in law school yet and don't have law school gpa or activities like law review and moot court. Is it pure LSAT?

Thanks everyone, and again, thank you for the responses to my original post, I feel a step or two closer to my decision already.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:57 am

bobkat12 wrote:P.S. Given the above exchange, I'm curious as to what makes funded legal so competitive/difficult to achieve? Is it simply in virtue of the fact that they only offer a couple of spots a year a supplement to the majority of Judge Advocates they get from law school/DA, or are the people applying simply outstanding candidates? I'm also curious as to how the selectors assess your potential as a lawyer since you aren't in law school yet and don't have law school gpa or activities like law review and moot court. Is it pure LSAT?

Thanks everyone, and again, thank you for the responses to my original post, I feel a step or two closer to my decision already.

I think the difficulty is simply the small numbers of officers selected. I have no idea how many applied to be part of the three selected, so I don't know if your odds are better than the other routes to JAG. It's more the concern that some folks might go that route and do something they don't really like for 2-6 years just on the slim chance they could go JAG. It's too hard a
life to do it well if you don't like it.

For the selection criteria for Navy, see here: http://www.jag.navy.mil/documents/Careers/1520_7f.pdf (PDF page 8 ). No weight is given to the various criteria, but my guess is that "Quality of academic and military records" is the dominant, but not quite determinative one.

Edit: note, even though the instruction authorizes 25 selectees, even before the current fiscal constraints, typical select classes were fewer than 10 (if I recall correctly).

bjack347
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Re: Military Law

Postby bjack347 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:47 am

shock259 wrote:
bjack347 wrote:
Alexandros1886 wrote:@Patrick sorry if I'm being a bother but would mind giving me a couple tips how better to dig through the forum. I looked through about the first and last 15 pages of the post but couldn't find anything on the topic. I also did a forum search for "JAG" (minus the parentheses) but it came back with "No Suitable Matches Were Found." I just searched again though and got the same result even though I know at least my post exists.


Start on page 106 of this forum and go for a few pages; you'll get the type of posts you were looking for.

From a personal perspective, I'm an Ohio native like you and decided on Toledo because it was so cheap. I got picked up for AD JAG this past November despite only being middle of the class at Toledo and no law review, moot court etc. I was prior military though and I believe my app demonstrated strong leadership qualities and a knack for legal writing/advocacy. Recommendations, the JAG FSO interview, and anything tending to show a capacity for quality leadership will always be more important than the school you attend. In my humble opinion, pick the school that's both affordable and located in a city you can see yourself at for three years.


Can you elaborate more on how you specifically demonstrated your strong leadership qualities (aside from prior military)?


@shock other than prior military I believe I was able to show/bolster my leadership intangibles with my work experience and collegiate extracurriculars. While I never worked a legal job during law school, I worked a 20 or so hours a week at a local pizza chain so I could eat. I was able to show leadership here as I was asked to take on a management position after only three weeks on the job. In regards to extracurricular activities, I had on my app that I am an eagle scout, I was captain of the NCAA lacrosse team I played for in undergrad, and I was a member of a scholarship program designed to mold a person who had previously been involved in a lot of volunteer work into the person who created, organized, and managed volunteer/charity programs. In short, my app showed that whenever I did something, I was eventually a leader in that something.

hope that helps

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:54 pm

bobkat12 wrote:P.S. Given the above exchange, I'm curious as to what makes funded legal so competitive/difficult to achieve? Is it simply in virtue of the fact that they only offer a couple of spots a year a supplement to the majority of Judge Advocates they get from law school/DA, or are the people applying simply outstanding candidates? I'm also curious as to how the selectors assess your potential as a lawyer since you aren't in law school yet and don't have law school gpa or activities like law review and moot court. Is it pure LSAT?

Thanks everyone, and again, thank you for the responses to my original post, I feel a step or two closer to my decision already.


The primary issue is that it is ridiculously expensive for the Air Force (or other service) to pay for all 1st Lt X's law school in addition to his salary as an O-2 w/ 2-3 years of service, plus allowances. It is not like we are hurting for numbers in the way the medical community might, so there is no real justification for throwing that sort of money around beyond the fact that the entire Corps benefits from officers with previous experience in a different career field, something we'll get anyway from ELP applicants. The Defense Dept's budget has been slashed and everyone is expected to do more with less - if I was wearing stars on my shoulders, FLEP is one of the first places I would look to cut costs.

The applicants are also usually high speed - low drag types, so even if there was a big pot of money, the competition would be ruthless.

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DaveCA
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Re: Military Law

Postby DaveCA » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:13 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:The primary issue is that it is ridiculously expensive for the Air Force (or other service) to pay for all 1st Lt X's law school in addition to his salary as an O-2 w/ 2-3 years of service, plus allowances. It is not like we are hurting for numbers in the way the medical community might, so there is no real justification for throwing that sort of money around beyond the fact that the entire Corps benefits from officers with previous experience in a different career field, something we'll get anyway from ELP applicants. The Defense Dept's budget has been slashed and everyone is expected to do more with less - if I was wearing stars on my shoulders, FLEP is one of the first places I would look to cut costs.

The applicants are also usually high speed - low drag types, so even if there was a big pot of money, the competition would be ruthless.
Bottom line is, none of the branches are hurting for reasonably qualified applicants that have already completed and/or paid for (by way of massive loans) their legal education, so there's really limited incentive to go out of their way to pay for educating their applicants with their own money.

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:06 pm

DaveCA wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:The primary issue is that it is ridiculously expensive for the Air Force (or other service) to pay for all 1st Lt X's law school in addition to his salary as an O-2 w/ 2-3 years of service, plus allowances. It is not like we are hurting for numbers in the way the medical community might, so there is no real justification for throwing that sort of money around beyond the fact that the entire Corps benefits from officers with previous experience in a different career field, something we'll get anyway from ELP applicants. The Defense Dept's budget has been slashed and everyone is expected to do more with less - if I was wearing stars on my shoulders, FLEP is one of the first places I would look to cut costs.

The applicants are also usually high speed - low drag types, so even if there was a big pot of money, the competition would be ruthless.
Bottom line is, none of the branches are hurting for reasonably qualified applicants that have already completed and/or paid for (by way of massive loans) their legal education, so there's really limited incentive to go out of their way to pay for educating their applicants with their own money.


From what I understand, they keep the program around so that there are some JAGs with military experience as OFFICERS -- as we're going to be advising commanders, it's probably good to have a few people who know what it's like to BE a commander. Or something. Who knows. I don't know how useful we are in actual practice, but I'm certainly glad that I snuck in when somebody was asleep at the switch. :)

Army FLEP has hit the 25-person cap three years running, at least according to the stud book...they may start selecting fewer applicants now that it looks like we're entering something of a draw down.

us.army.jag.hopeful
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Re: Military Law

Postby us.army.jag.hopeful » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:07 am

Army Active Duty Q:

How many people typically don't pass medical? Are waivers really that hard to get nowadays? If almost every AD primary selectee accepted commission, any thoughts on the odds of getting off the alternate list this year? I'm on the Army AD Alternate list. Thanks

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:09 am

us.army.jag.hopeful wrote:Army Active Duty Q:

How many people typically don't pass medical? Are waivers really that hard to get nowadays? If almost every AD primary selectee accepted commission, any thoughts on the odds of getting off the alternate list this year? I'm on the Army AD Alternate list. Thanks

What kind of waiver are you getting? Always depends on your condition.

Couldn't tell you about the alternate list. In my year, no one was plucked from the alternate list. Maybe things have changed. Essentially, I wouldn't count on it but don't give up hope.

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Doc Review Lifer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Doc Review Lifer » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:28 pm

Thread seems a bit dead as of late. AF hopefuls, has anyone heard anything?!

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:33 pm

Doc Review Lifer wrote:Thread seems a bit dead as of late. AF hopefuls, has anyone heard anything?!


Not a peep. Nothing's been reported on the OTS board either. :cry:

I'm a 3L, so I'm in the situation of needing to know so I can try to track down another job if I get denied again. I'll need something to support my JAG application habit once school is over.

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Doc Review Lifer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Doc Review Lifer » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:43 pm

Just another April day, then!

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:49 pm

Doc Review Lifer wrote:Thread seems a bit dead as of late. AF hopefuls, has anyone heard anything?!


Confirming that it is just another April day - selection results have not yet posted.

And in that you didn't even have to use your A.K., I might venture to say that today is a good April day.

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DaveCA
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Re: Military Law

Postby DaveCA » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:06 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Doc Review Lifer wrote:Thread seems a bit dead as of late. AF hopefuls, has anyone heard anything?!
Confirming that it is just another April day - selection results have not yet posted.

And in that you didn't even have to use your A.K., I might venture to say that today is a good April day.
That merited a laugh, which is a feat, on this, my last day of 3L finals.
I've been told that best case scenario, if everything goes according to plan, the accepted few will find out sometime this coming Monday. That's probably a big if.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:55 pm

From the JAG recruiting FB page:

Will Turner
I applied to the April Selection Board. Do you know when the results from this Board are expected to be released? Thanks.
19 hours ago

U.S. Air Force JAG Recruiting
Hello Will, You can expect the results in late May.


Hopefully that's just a safe answer.

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Doc Review Lifer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Doc Review Lifer » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:05 pm

howell wrote:From the JAG recruiting FB page:

Will Turner
I applied to the April Selection Board. Do you know when the results from this Board are expected to be released? Thanks.
19 hours ago

U.S. Air Force JAG Recruiting
Hello Will, You can expect the results in late May.


Hopefully that's just a safe answer.



Good day ruined.

JAG_Hopeful
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Re: Military Law

Postby JAG_Hopeful » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:38 am

Anyone else waiting for word from the Navy spring board? (SP)

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DaveCA
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Re: Military Law

Postby DaveCA » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:30 pm

JAG_Hopeful wrote:Anyone else waiting for word from the Navy spring board? (SP)
Navy, Air Force, hell if the Salvation Army got themselves a JAG branch I might have applied there too.

JAG_Hopeful
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Re: Military Law

Postby JAG_Hopeful » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:23 pm

DaveCA wrote:
JAG_Hopeful wrote:Anyone else waiting for word from the Navy spring board? (SP)
Navy, Air Force, hell if the Salvation Army got themselves a JAG branch I might have applied there too.


And nary a peep from anybody? I don't really expect to hear anything before May 7 at the soonest, and I'm making every effort not to check my status...looks like it was just under 9 weeks for the fall boards.

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napolnic
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Re: Military Law

Postby napolnic » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:42 pm

JAG_Hopeful wrote:
DaveCA wrote:
JAG_Hopeful wrote:Anyone else waiting for word from the Navy spring board? (SP)
Navy, Air Force, hell if the Salvation Army got themselves a JAG branch I might have applied there too.


And nary a peep from anybody? I don't really expect to hear anything before May 7 at the soonest, and I'm making every effort not to check my status...looks like it was just under 9 weeks for the fall boards.


If I recall correctly, the Navy JAG Spring board came out April 20th last year.

joshlyman
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Re: Military Law

Postby joshlyman » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:09 pm

im anxiously awaiting the Navy spring board results. should be hearing by may 15th.

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FlanAl
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Re: Military Law

Postby FlanAl » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:54 pm

Where's the best place to go to get sort of tailored advice for those who are very interested in jag? I have medical and background questions and would sort of like to find out soon whether or not this is even an option for me. I'll be spending my summer after 1L in very close proximity to a big Navy base, any chance they have someone on base who can help with jag questions? The normal recruiters don't seem to have the inside intel.

Thanks!

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napolnic
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Re: Military Law

Postby napolnic » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:50 am

joshlyman wrote:im anxiously awaiting the Navy spring board results. should be hearing by may 15th.


I really don't think you'll have to wait that long, unless last year was a huge aberration.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31543&start=2175 (about half-way down the page)

steubenville
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Re: Military Law

Postby steubenville » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:02 pm

They took over 8 weeks for the fall board, so it may not be until May 15th that we hear back.




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