Military Law

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:49 pm

joe_45 wrote:Got an Air Force JAG Externship for the summer!


Hey Joe, congrats, man. :)

Question, though: are you talking about the internships or something your school offers?

joe_45
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Re: Military Law

Postby joe_45 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:58 pm

bouakedojo wrote:
joe_45 wrote:Got an Air Force JAG Externship for the summer!


Hey Joe, congrats, man. :)

Question, though: are you talking about the internships or something your school offers?


It's through the school.

Alexandros1886
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Re: Military Law

Postby Alexandros1886 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:00 pm

I am in the process of deciding on law schools for this fall, and have been strongly considering JAG after law school for some time now. I was hoping for some insight on the importance of your law school's ranking on your prospects an getting into JAG (for any of the branches). The issue is that I am an Ohio native with full tuition offers from T3 schools Akron, Cleveland-Marshall, and Toledo. I have not heard back from T2 Cinci yet and I did not apply to T1 OSU. I also got in at out of state T2s Pitt, Penn State, Loyola, DePaul, and Chicago Kent. While I got decent scholarship money from those schools being out of state they are still going to be fairly expensive. I crunched the numbers and going out of state is going to cost me around 150k for 3 yrs while if I stay instate I can graduate with <45k debt. The economics major in me has a hard time justifying paying 3 times for law school, but would going to one T3 schools listed above rule out me getting into JAG or make it that much more difficult?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:29 pm

Alexandros1886 wrote:I am in the process of deciding on law schools for this fall, and have been strongly considering JAG after law school for some time now. I was hoping for some insight on the importance of your law school's ranking on your prospects an getting into JAG (for any of the branches). The issue is that I am an Ohio native with full tuition offers from T3 schools Akron, Cleveland-Marshall, and Toledo. I have not heard back from T2 Cinci yet and I did not apply to T1 OSU. I also got in at out of state T2s Pitt, Penn State, Loyola, DePaul, and Chicago Kent. While I got decent scholarship money from those schools being out of state they are still going to be fairly expensive. I crunched the numbers and going out of state is going to cost me around 150k for 3 yrs while if I stay instate I can graduate with <45k debt. The economics major in me has a hard time justifying paying 3 times for law school, but would going to one T3 schools listed above rule out me getting into JAG or make it that much more difficult?


I'm fairly certain there already have been some posts on this exact issue. Take some time to dig through the thread.

The short version - the USNWR rank is not going to have any real impact on your chances for JAG selection. That said, you have to also factor in that you may end up not pursuing JAG, may not be selected, or may not do your full 20 years if you are selected. Those are all situations in which will be facing employers who may care about USNWR rank. Your law school selection should enable you to pursue those alternative career paths. I would not put all your eggs in the JAG basket as a law school applicant.

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Doc Review Lifer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Doc Review Lifer » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:55 pm

Patrick,

Is Area Defense Counsel much-sought after? Is it very competitive to attain? From my very basic AF procedural understanding, one needs to prove themselves as a prosecutor (or whatever military equivalent thereof) first before they're entrusted with defending. As such, is ADC comprised of more higher-ranking officers?

Alexandros1886
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Re: Military Law

Postby Alexandros1886 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:58 pm

@Patrick sorry if I'm being a bother but would mind giving me a couple tips how better to dig through the forum. I looked through about the first and last 15 pages of the post but couldn't find anything on the topic. I also did a forum search for "JAG" (minus the parentheses) but it came back with "No Suitable Matches Were Found." I just searched again though and got the same result even though I know at least my post exists.

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:32 pm

Alexandros: All of the information is in this thread. Go back to page 1 and start reading. In a few hours, you'll be an expert. ;)

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:15 pm

Doc Review Lifer wrote:Patrick,

Is Area Defense Counsel much-sought after? Is it very competitive to attain? From my very basic AF procedural understanding, one needs to prove themselves as a prosecutor (or whatever military equivalent thereof) first before they're entrusted with defending. As such, is ADC comprised of more higher-ranking officers?


Good question.

As a general rule, it is competitively selected and a position most base-level JAGs gun for. Typically ADCs will have had at least one full tour at base legal and most have done two base legal assignments (meaning 3-4 years on the job prior to moving to ADC). In the best case scenarios, ADC selects have distinguished themselves as capable litigators and have solid experience not just in the court-room , but also as the chief (OIC) of their office’s military justice division, handling the administrative side of courts, Art 15s, administrative discharges, and everything else that falls into AFI 51-201.

There is a preference for seniority and experience, so it is far less common to land an ADC position while on your first assignment. I have seen SJAs with a policy of recommending the most senior captain (assuming they are capable) and others that will base it entirely on who possess the greatest skill and experience.

Landing an ADC slot is hard not just due to the competitive selection, but also due to the timing. Most bases will only have a single ADC – that means that the timing has to work out b/t that ADC leaving. If you are set to PCS in the summer of 2012 but the ADC will not leave until 2013, you are probably out of luck. Most ADCs are plucked from the base legal office at the same base: Chief of Military Justice in June PCAs to become the Area Defense Counsel that July. On more rare occasions, they will do a “direct fill” and grab a JAG from Base X to fill the ADC position in Base Y.

The fact that each base will usually only have one ADC also makes it competitive – there are a whole bunch of captains at the legal office who might want the job but only one is going to make the cut.

If ADC is a position you are interested in, do your best to get as much experience in the courtroom as you can. You’ll get courts and discharge boards if you are at a busier base (Lackland, Nellis, etc). If you end up at a lower tempo base in terms of military justice, work with your SJA to get farmed out to the busier bases to try cases there. Also, if you can get the experience of serving as a Summary Court Officer (judge) on Summary Courts-Martial, it is a great experience that also looks good if you trying to separate yourself from the pack. Same goes as serving as an Investigating Officer for an Article 32 Hearing.

As in all things, keep in mind it is also a very small JAG Corps, an even smaller defense community, and your reputation is everything. How you conduct yourself as a trial-counsel and recorder, not only in front of the military judge, but also with the ADCs you go up against, will count. Small things like how you handle notices and discovery back when you are a Lieutenant may have unseen influences four years down the road.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:17 pm

Alexandros1886 wrote:@Patrick sorry if I'm being a bother but would mind giving me a couple tips how better to dig through the forum. I looked through about the first and last 15 pages of the post but couldn't find anything on the topic. I also did a forum search for "JAG" (minus the parentheses) but it came back with "No Suitable Matches Were Found." I just searched again though and got the same result even though I know at least my post exists.


I have no idea how the search engine works on this site. I have to agree with Shock's recommendation of just slogging through all the posts. I've been posting here for nearly four years now and cannot sort out what content is where.

If it turns out I am mistaken, follow up or shoot me a PM. I'm happy to reengage.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:43 pm

Is anyone familiar with Military Service Deferment? http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/ ... iculty.jsp

It seems like I can defer paying my loans. That's a good thing for my subsidized loans. Unsubsidized, though, could be bad because the interest would capitalize into my principal. Do I have the gist of this right? Might as well defer the subsidized ones?

It's not a forbearance.

edit: Hmm, reading more carefully. Seems like it's only if you get deployed (Afghan, etc.)

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:28 pm

@Esquire - To the best of my knowledge, your active duty service qualifies you for the military deferment for your student loans. Don't let that language about serving in a time of war deter you. A JAG at my base deferred his loans successfully well before he deployed, and I have just applied to defer mine. I don't anticipate any issues (unlike trying to get on the IBR plan, which STILL hasn't happened). I think you are correct about the interest accumulation on subsidized v unsubsidized loans.

Tangentially related: for those of you AD folks who may not know or just haven't gotten around to doing it yet, don't forget to contact your credit card lenders to lower your APRs per SCRA!

woody_10
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Re: Military Law

Postby woody_10 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:19 pm

AF Internship letters were supposed to go out Monday, any movement there or on any other applications?

wedge96
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Re: Military Law

Postby wedge96 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:52 pm

Just got my rejection letter for the USAF 2L paid internship today.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:18 pm

wedge96 wrote:Just got my rejection letter for the USAF 2L paid internship today.


Sorry to hear.

I accepted a position at a prosecutor's office today because I couldn't wait any longer to hear back.

Good luck to all still waiting. :)

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bouakedojo
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Re: Military Law

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:38 pm

For anyone waiting to hear, I received my rejection letter today for the 1L internship.

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:53 pm

bouakedojo wrote:For anyone waiting to hear, I received my rejection letter today for the 1L internship.


Samesies. Yay Navy! Good luck to everyone.

bjack347
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Re: Military Law

Postby bjack347 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:42 am

Alexandros1886 wrote:@Patrick sorry if I'm being a bother but would mind giving me a couple tips how better to dig through the forum. I looked through about the first and last 15 pages of the post but couldn't find anything on the topic. I also did a forum search for "JAG" (minus the parentheses) but it came back with "No Suitable Matches Were Found." I just searched again though and got the same result even though I know at least my post exists.


Start on page 106 of this forum and go for a few pages; you'll get the type of posts you were looking for.

From a personal perspective, I'm an Ohio native like you and decided on Toledo because it was so cheap. I got picked up for AD JAG this past November despite only being middle of the class at Toledo and no law review, moot court etc. I was prior military though and I believe my app demonstrated strong leadership qualities and a knack for legal writing/advocacy. Recommendations, the JAG FSO interview, and anything tending to show a capacity for quality leadership will always be more important than the school you attend. In my humble opinion, pick the school that's both affordable and located in a city you can see yourself at for three years.

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DaveCA
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Re: Military Law

Postby DaveCA » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:45 am

bjack347 wrote:I got picked up for AD JAG this past November despite only being middle of the class at Toledo and no law review, moot court etc. I was prior military though and I believe my app demonstrated strong leadership qualities and a knack for legal writing/advocacy. Recommendations, the JAG FSO interview, and anything tending to show a capacity for quality leadership will always be more important than the school you attend. In my humble opinion, pick the school that's both affordable and located in a city you can see yourself at for three years.
This is good advice for anyone. I've met more JAGs from non-Ivy schools than otherwise. There's no 'secret' equation, they want you to show them you have the capacity to apply yourself, and a background that reflects your quality.
Have a resume, go do things, be on boards, work your way up, meet people that can attest to your awesomeness. Being at a 'lower school' isn't a hindrance nearly as much as not doing anything while you're there.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:01 pm

DaveCA wrote:Being at a 'lower school' isn't a hindrance nearly as much as not doing anything while you're there.


Well said.

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:31 pm

bjack347 wrote:
Alexandros1886 wrote:@Patrick sorry if I'm being a bother but would mind giving me a couple tips how better to dig through the forum. I looked through about the first and last 15 pages of the post but couldn't find anything on the topic. I also did a forum search for "JAG" (minus the parentheses) but it came back with "No Suitable Matches Were Found." I just searched again though and got the same result even though I know at least my post exists.


Start on page 106 of this forum and go for a few pages; you'll get the type of posts you were looking for.

From a personal perspective, I'm an Ohio native like you and decided on Toledo because it was so cheap. I got picked up for AD JAG this past November despite only being middle of the class at Toledo and no law review, moot court etc. I was prior military though and I believe my app demonstrated strong leadership qualities and a knack for legal writing/advocacy. Recommendations, the JAG FSO interview, and anything tending to show a capacity for quality leadership will always be more important than the school you attend. In my humble opinion, pick the school that's both affordable and located in a city you can see yourself at for three years.


Can you elaborate more on how you specifically demonstrated your strong leadership qualities (aside from prior military)?

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DaveCA
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Re: Military Law

Postby DaveCA » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:53 pm

shock259 wrote:Can you elaborate more on how you specifically demonstrated your strong leadership qualities (aside from prior military)?
I too was prior military, but when asked by the Air Force how I demonstrated leadership, I deliberately made reference to other instances in my employment and organization experience (my military performance reviews talked extensively enough about my leadership roles).

Specifically, any time I took the lead on a project, each board position I've held, etc. Each and every time I directed any group of people, I tried to bring up, focusing on what successes we had, and what we learned from any failures.

bobkat12
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Re: Military Law

Postby bobkat12 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:55 pm

Hi All,

I joined the forum a few months back, haven't looked at it in a while so I was surprised to find I was only a couple pages behind. Anyway, I have a question about pursuing JAG via the funded programs that are offered to current officers. As a matter of what I want to do with my life, I know I want to be an officer and have that experience, but I am really interested in law as well. I know this is TLS so the majority of folks on the forum are seeking their JD before the military and will apply to programs for law students and barred attorneys. I was wondering, however, if anyone could speak to the funded programs for officers. I've read the whole forum, and I know these programs were at least mentioned, however, I was hoping for some more detail. Are the officers selected for FLEP at a disadvantage to law students in terms of growth in the JAG Corps?

I feel that one of the pros about applying through FLEP is that your branch doesn't have to worry about wondering about your potential performance as an officer, which, by all accounts, is a big part of selection for law students/DA attorneys.

My main concern is that while law is something that people can get into later in life, being an officer has a narrow window for age, and I don't want to miss the boat for that. I'm just unsure about which path to take to becoming a Judge Advocate.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:27 pm

bobkat12 wrote:Hi All,

I joined the forum a few months back, haven't looked at it in a while so I was surprised to find I was only a couple pages behind. Anyway, I have a question about pursuing JAG via the funded programs that are offered to current officers. As a matter of what I want to do with my life, I know I want to be an officer and have that experience, but I am really interested in law as well. I know this is TLS so the majority of folks on the forum are seeking their JD before the military and will apply to programs for law students and barred attorneys. I was wondering, however, if anyone could speak to the funded programs for officers. I've read the whole forum, and I know these programs were at least mentioned, however, I was hoping for some more detail. Are the officers selected for FLEP at a disadvantage to law students in terms of growth in the JAG Corps?

I feel that one of the pros about applying through FLEP is that your branch doesn't have to worry about wondering about your potential performance as an officer, which, by all accounts, is a big part of selection for law students/DA attorneys.

My main concern is that while law is something that people can get into later in life, being an officer has a narrow window for age, and I don't want to miss the boat for that. I'm just unsure about which path to take to becoming a Judge Advocate.


The Air Force has both FLEP and ELP. FLEP is the fully funded program for current AD officers - selection for this in the last 2-3 years has been beyond cutthroat and limited to one or two applicants. With the current state of the budgeting in both the Air Force and DoD at large, I would expect selection for this program to remain incredibly limited.

I would strongly caution you against looking at FLEP or ELP as some sort of backdoor into the JAG Corps. Selection stats for the rest of the line are not any more encouraging and you will likely be serving at least four years in that AFSC prior to being able to swing over to law school via FLEP/ELP. If you want to serve as an intel, logistics, special tactics, or other type of officer, pursue that. If you want to serve as a JAG, I would recommend coming through GLP, OYCP, or DAP.

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:51 pm

Seconding PB's post.

There are a two current officers at my school. One is on the FLEP program through the Army. I haven't talked to him about the number of other FLEPs selected, but I'm assuming it's just a couple for the entire branch. The other was a finalist for the FLEP with the Air Force, but lost because only 1 officer was selected for it last year after a series of interviews. However, the Air Force let him do a program where he basically takes leave for 3 years to complete his JD and is guaranteed a JAG job upon graduation and bar passage, but he must pay for school himself and does not earn years of service. Beyond this, I don't know the details of his arrangement. It seems to be a unique one.

As PB mentioned, I think it would be even more of an uphill battle to try and go through FLEP than it would be to join the ranks of JAG applicants. From your post, it seems that you are set on law. If that is the case, then it is probably best to start grooming yourself for the JAG apps now, go to law school, try to limit your debtload, do well in your first couple of semesters, and apply like crazy to every JAG opportunity you can find.

Good luck with whichever route you choose.

Edit: after further review, I think the AF person was chosen for the ELP program. Perhaps it is not a unique arrangement.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:59 pm

bobkat12 wrote:Hi All,

I joined the forum a few months back, haven't looked at it in a while so I was surprised to find I was only a couple pages behind. Anyway, I have a question about pursuing JAG via the funded programs that are offered to current officers. As a matter of what I want to do with my life, I know I want to be an officer and have that experience, but I am really interested in law as well. I know this is TLS so the majority of folks on the forum are seeking their JD before the military and will apply to programs for law students and barred attorneys. I was wondering, however, if anyone could speak to the funded programs for officers. I've read the whole forum, and I know these programs were at least mentioned, however, I was hoping for some more detail. Are the officers selected for FLEP at a disadvantage to law students in terms of growth in the JAG Corps?

I feel that one of the pros about applying through FLEP is that your branch doesn't have to worry about wondering about your potential performance as an officer, which, by all accounts, is a big part of selection for law students/DA attorneys.

My main concern is that while law is something that people can get into later in life, being an officer has a narrow window for age, and I don't want to miss the boat for that. I'm just unsure about which path to take to becoming a Judge Advocate.
Most of my Navy JAG friends were FLEPers. I think that one of the advantages of FLEP is that you will qualify in a warfare specialty (surface warfare, pilot, submarine officer, etc.) before going to law school, which will give you a little bit of "street cred" by wearing a warfare pin.

HOWEVER! I would echo PB's warning not to join as an officer in hopes of back-dooring into JAG. For FY 13, Navy selected three (plus one alternate). http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/r ... V12090.txt. Note: In addition to the difficulty in just getting selected, you also have to be released by your old warfare specialty-- which isn't so easy for some areas. For example, there are no aviators on that list (nor did I ever know an aviator turned JAG despite what the TV show might have suggested was possible-- but that's anecdotal).

If you want to join to fly, drive ships/submarines, etc. great-- do that and enjoy serving. I did for 20+ years. You can try for JAG, but certainly don't count on it. But don't think you can't go back after serving-- even after a full career.

Edit: Seconding Shock, thirding PB




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