Military Law

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Number81
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Re: Military Law

Postby Number81 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:49 pm

Is a plan to go from Marine Corp JAG to USAttorney (or FBI/CIA/NSA attorney) to politics a reasonable one? I feel like I would stand out after I finish my 3.5 year commitment, since not a ton of JAGs go to top-20 schools.. If anyone can comment on this I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
Last edited by Number81 on Fri May 01, 2009 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

imdashep
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Re: Military Law

Postby imdashep » Fri May 01, 2009 2:01 am

I've been offered a spot with NAVY Jag as a 1L intern. I would eventually like to do JAG stateside, possibly in Norfolk; does that mean I should try to get an internship there, as opposed to say, going abroad? Any ideas on the different Naval JAG bases? Thanks for any help.

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stayawake5
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Re: Military Law

Postby stayawake5 » Fri May 01, 2009 2:31 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Yointer wrote:Patrick, why did you choose Air Force over the other branches?


Quality of life and recognition that a JAG is a professional.

Anyone with Armed Forces experience can tell you that AF quality of life is far and away the best. The AFB I was at this summer as a civilian law clerk was complete with golf course, two gyms, tennis club, driving range, etc.

The AF seems the most "corporate" of all the branches, which is appealing for me. Our enlisted have the highest test scores, we are focused on expanding in space and cyberspace, preference on brains v. brawn, etc. I truly want to serve my country but after 3 years of law school, I am not looking for the "hoora" experience that Army and USMC bring. I have a friend who is in his 2nd year of Army JAG and loves the fact that he got to attend the full officer's training (not the limited version USN/USAF use for JAGs) Air Assault School, is trying for Ranger School, etc. I don't need to be fast roping out of a helicopter as Patrick Bateman, Esquire.

I also like the limited deployments Airman deal with (4 months v. Army/USMC 12-16 months).

It was very difficult for me to not pursue the Navy but I am quite happy with my decision to go active duty w/ the AF.


Patrick, do not say things like "brains vs Brawn." I spent quite a few years in the Marine corps and Marines are far from dumb. Do you think men going in battle do not plan and prepare? Oorah is not an experience; it means KILL and it is a battle cry! You want to serve your country- great. But, remember what the contract you sign means. Just because you sign on with the branch closest to having a "corporation" on the end of its logo does not mean you might not end up in a cold (or hot) place with a rifle in your hands.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri May 01, 2009 3:47 am

stayawake5 wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Yointer wrote:Patrick, why did you choose Air Force over the other branches?


Quality of life and recognition that a JAG is a professional.

Anyone with Armed Forces experience can tell you that AF quality of life is far and away the best. The AFB I was at this summer as a civilian law clerk was complete with golf course, two gyms, tennis club, driving range, etc.

The AF seems the most "corporate" of all the branches, which is appealing for me. Our enlisted have the highest test scores, we are focused on expanding in space and cyberspace, preference on brains v. brawn, etc. I truly want to serve my country but after 3 years of law school, I am not looking for the "hoora" experience that Army and USMC bring. I have a friend who is in his 2nd year of Army JAG and loves the fact that he got to attend the full officer's training (not the limited version USN/USAF use for JAGs) Air Assault School, is trying for Ranger School, etc. I don't need to be fast roping out of a helicopter as Patrick Bateman, Esquire.

I also like the limited deployments Airman deal with (4 months v. Army/USMC 12-16 months).

It was very difficult for me to not pursue the Navy but I am quite happy with my decision to go active duty w/ the AF.


Patrick, do not say things like "brains vs Brawn." I spent quite a few years in the Marine corps and Marines are far from dumb. Do you think men going in battle do not plan and prepare? Oorah is not an experience; it means KILL and it is a battle cry! You want to serve your country- great. But, remember what the contract you sign means. Just because you sign on with the branch closest to having a "corporation" on the end of its logo does not mean you might not end up in a cold (or hot) place with a rifle in your hands.


Easy there Devil Dog. There is no disrespect to the Marine Corps in my post there. I was trying to articulate the fundamental differences between the services for those with no experience in uniform. The Air Force's mission is the whole "Air, Space, and Cyberspace" thing. That means our mission is far more technically and scientifically oriented and far less infantry/trigger-pulling based. There are not really POGs in the Air Force.

USMC offers sea-based force projection. The onus of that is on the infantry. As a result, there is a credible distinction between the trigger pullers and those in the rear echelon, supporting that mission.

In short, the Marines, very generally, are going to offer far more in the way of combat-arms at the expense of technical/scientific. Inversely, the Air Force has far more technical/scientific at the expense of combat arms. It is not to say any service is better or worse. They are just different. There are plenty of bright technical Marines and plenty of combat tested Airmen. It is simply a matter of proportions, service mission, and the culture that emanates from those two factors.
If you want to quibble with "brains v. brawn" being a pejorative way for me to get that point across, fine.

Thank you for your service. That said, lighten up.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Fri May 01, 2009 8:04 am

imdashep wrote:I've been offered a spot with NAVY Jag as a 1L intern. I would eventually like to do JAG stateside, possibly in Norfolk; does that mean I should try to get an internship there, as opposed to say, going abroad? Any ideas on the different Naval JAG bases? Thanks for any help.


I'm almost positive that where you do your internship will have NO bearing on where your first duty station is, if you are eventually selected for JAG. Also, I don't think the Navy puts as much weight on the internship as the Army/AF do when it comes to selection for the job.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Fri May 01, 2009 8:10 am

Number 81,
If you are not 100% sure you want to do OCS, I would not do it. Let me generalize about Marines, especially officers - they WANT to be there. Unlike the other services, USMC OCS is no joke, and a large part of getting through/doing well will stem from your motivation. Good luck.

texaslawyer
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Re: Military Law

Postby texaslawyer » Fri May 01, 2009 9:38 am

Number81 I agree with Brownshoe on this. Marine OCS is the real deal. It will be the toughest thing you'll ever do. I don't know if you would get any compensatory activity during 2L. I will say that being a Marine officer does look good on a resume and it will open doors. My advice is to be in the best shape of you life and do some real soul searching, it is no joke. I saw nerdy looking bookish types finish at the top of their class in OCS and I've seen world class athletes fall flat on their face. They do find out how bad you want it. Also, they do make it rougher on aviation and JAG candidates.

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stayawake5
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Re: Military Law

Postby stayawake5 » Fri May 01, 2009 4:18 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
stayawake5 wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Yointer wrote:Patrick, why did you choose Air Force over the other branches?


Quality of life and recognition that a JAG is a professional.

Anyone with Armed Forces experience can tell you that AF quality of life is far and away the best. The AFB I was at this summer as a civilian law clerk was complete with golf course, two gyms, tennis club, driving range, etc.

The AF seems the most "corporate" of all the branches, which is appealing for me. Our enlisted have the highest test scores, we are focused on expanding in space and cyberspace, preference on brains v. brawn, etc. I truly want to serve my country but after 3 years of law school, I am not looking for the "hoora" experience that Army and USMC bring. I have a friend who is in his 2nd year of Army JAG and loves the fact that he got to attend the full officer's training (not the limited version USN/USAF use for JAGs) Air Assault School, is trying for Ranger School, etc. I don't need to be fast roping out of a helicopter as Patrick Bateman, Esquire.

I also like the limited deployments Airman deal with (4 months v. Army/USMC 12-16 months).

It was very difficult for me to not pursue the Navy but I am quite happy with my decision to go active duty w/ the AF.


Patrick, do not say things like "brains vs Brawn." I spent quite a few years in the Marine corps and Marines are far from dumb. Do you think men going in battle do not plan and prepare? Oorah is not an experience; it means KILL and it is a battle cry! You want to serve your country- great. But, remember what the contract you sign means. Just because you sign on with the branch closest to having a "corporation" on the end of its logo does not mean you might not end up in a cold (or hot) place with a rifle in your hands.


Easy there Devil Dog. There is no disrespect to the Marine Corps in my post there. I was trying to articulate the fundamental differences between the services for those with no experience in uniform. The Air Force's mission is the whole "Air, Space, and Cyberspace" thing. That means our mission is far more technically and scientifically oriented and far less infantry/trigger-pulling based. There are not really POGs in the Air Force.

USMC offers sea-based force projection. The onus of that is on the infantry. As a result, there is a credible distinction between the trigger pullers and those in the rear echelon, supporting that mission.

In short, the Marines, very generally, are going to offer far more in the way of combat-arms at the expense of technical/scientific. Inversely, the Air Force has far more technical/scientific at the expense of combat arms. It is not to say any service is better or worse. They are just different. There are plenty of bright technical Marines and plenty of combat tested Airmen. It is simply a matter of proportions, service mission, and the culture that emanates from those two factors.
If you want to quibble with "brains v. brawn" being a pejorative way for me to get that point across, fine.

Thank you for your service. That said, lighten up.



Haha... Patrick, I was about 5/6 of my way through a six pack last night. I guess I did come off a little rough on you. That said, you do not know where you will find yourself and what you will be doing. You should take that into consideration, because **it is a reality** and you should prepare yourself as such. Good luck and Semper Fi.

AndyB617
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Re: Military Law

Postby AndyB617 » Fri May 01, 2009 4:51 pm

imdashep wrote:I've been offered a spot with NAVY Jag as a 1L intern. I would eventually like to do JAG stateside, possibly in Norfolk; does that mean I should try to get an internship there, as opposed to say, going abroad? Any ideas on the different Naval JAG bases? Thanks for any help.



hey man, if you don't mind me asking...what was the app process like? were there interviews? what kind of grades did you get as a 1L? were you involved in anything at the school? you can PM me your response if you'd like. thanks!

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Fri May 01, 2009 7:45 pm

imdashep wrote:I've been offered a spot with NAVY Jag as a 1L intern. I would eventually like to do JAG stateside, possibly in Norfolk; does that mean I should try to get an internship there, as opposed to say, going abroad? Any ideas on the different Naval JAG bases? Thanks for any help.


There are a metric butt ton of JAG posts in/around Norfolk. Basically, all the fleet concentration areas will be the same way (Jax, SD, DC). The more Sailors in an area, the more likely your JAG opportunities. But as brownshoe said, it's unlikely that where you do your internship will have bearing on your initial duty station. You just want to go somewhere you'll be happy and do well so that will reflect positively on your application when the time comes.

Rather than running down every base, if you have any questions about particular locations, I have either been stationed there, deployed from there, been temporary duty there or at least know enough about the place to give a reasonable answer.

As for Norfolk, I love it. I came here kicking & screaming b/c conventional wisdom in the Navy is generally negative (compared to SD, few places measure up!). After my first tour here, we got re-posted to San Diego and then chose to come back to Norfolk and have been here ever since (six years...longest I've ever lived anywhere since high school!). Some of that is due to cost of living, but there's a surprising amount of stuff to do around here too-- as you would expect in a metro area of 1.8M people. (Which is why I laugh when anybody refers to William & Mary as being a "rural" school.) It's not Manhattan or SF, but it's a nice place to live.

imdashep
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Re: Military Law

Postby imdashep » Sat May 02, 2009 3:22 am

Andy - PM sent, but to anyone else, Navy was very easy, no interviews. Grades and other stuff were pretty average, and while my resume is solid, I imagine I got in significantly based on school.

Rotor - thanks for the response. I actually went to WM, and worked in Norfolk, so I know the area and love it; definitely wouldn't mind settling in there. As far as this summer, it's much more convenient for me to be in DC, although I'd love to go to SD or abroad. Real reason to go to Norfolk would be if it would help me in the JAG application process, but if you don't think so, then probably would make sense to stay in DC for convenience. That being said, what do you know about the foreign bases, specifically either in Japan or Naples? Not going to lie, it would be hard to turn down a month and a half in Italy :)

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sat May 02, 2009 9:15 am

imdashep wrote:Andy - PM sent, but to anyone else, Navy was very easy, no interviews. Grades and other stuff were pretty average, and while my resume is solid, I imagine I got in significantly based on school.

Rotor - thanks for the response. I actually went to WM, and worked in Norfolk, so I know the area and love it; definitely wouldn't mind settling in there. As far as this summer, it's much more convenient for me to be in DC, although I'd love to go to SD or abroad. Real reason to go to Norfolk would be if it would help me in the JAG application process, but if you don't think so, then probably would make sense to stay in DC for convenience. That being said, what do you know about the foreign bases, specifically either in Japan or Naples? Not going to lie, it would be hard to turn down a month and a half in Italy :)

Personally, I would prefer Naples to either Atsugi or Yokosuka (likely two spots in Japan). But that's 100% personal preference. Everyone to a person whom I have known well has loved being stationed Japan. The difference for me is that my French is good enough and Italian close enough to French that I can mutter my way through a market or at a restaurant, etc. With Japan, the language/signage issue made my time there less enjoyable. Note: less enjoyable does not equal unenjoyable! Apart from an unfortunate experience with conch sushi, I enjoyed my visits there-- just don't care to live there.

Naples has some of its own drawbacks-- last summer's garbage collector strike being most notable. There is more petty crime there, but for a short stint, you may not even have a car to have the radio stolen from (friend's first week stationed there). There are a few quite nice places to live, but you do need to be careful. Again for a summer, you'll probably get a room in Bachelor's Quarters (hotel room basically).

In Naples, you are in the shadow of Mt Vesuvius, a short drive from Pompeii (very cool) and the Amalfi coast. It's an easy train ride to Rome. Florence, Venice would be easy long weekend trips. The Dalmatian coast of Croatia is just across the Adriatic and is spectacular. (not sure if there are direct Naples-Split flights but would think so).

Good luck with your choices! Don't think you could go wrong with DC, Naples, Japan (or Norfolk)!
Last edited by Rotor on Sat May 02, 2009 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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partymidget
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Re: Military Law

Postby partymidget » Sat May 02, 2009 9:18 am

Rotor, do you believe the location of law school has any advantages in being accepted to Navy JAG? For example, would going to school in San Diego have more advantages because of the tremendous Navy presence there?

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sat May 02, 2009 9:48 am

partymidget wrote:Rotor, do you believe the location of law school has any advantages in being accepted to Navy JAG? For example, would going to school in San Diego have more advantages because of the tremendous Navy presence there?

I am not a JAG, nor a JAG candidate-- just a crusty old Navy guy (with lots of JAG friends) choosing law as my second career-- so take this opinion with a grain of salt.

My thoughts on schools are similar to what I advised imdashep above about summer associate locations-- but to dive a little into the WHY:

In terms of DIRECT effect (i.e. selection board members reading your package and saying "This one went to USD so let's let him in!!") I would say the impact would be nil. The military is VERY good at making selections based on the record and location just won't be considered a factor.

INDIRECTLY, though it might be a good move because a) networking opportunities and b) San Diego QOL. That said, the people you meet will almost certainly not be the ones making the selection decision, but they may be able to write a LOR that the admiral/captains making the selection might happen to know and put more credence in than another candidate's LOR.

I definitely would not choose Thomas Jefferson School over Yale just to be in SD close to the fleet (Yes, I know....it's extreme but you get my point). JAG isn't T14 or bust by any means, but you should want the best quality education you can get, in a place that you'll like to be. If you've always dreamed of living in SF and you have a chance to go to USF/UCH, don't pass it up just to be in SD; the benefits of being in a fleet concentration area just won't be that big. But if all other things are equal (debt, your personal opinion of the schools, etc.) being in SD isn't going to hurt and just may help a little.

Any actual JAGs/JAGs in training, please feel free to pile on to confirm or deny my point of view.

Number81
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Re: Military Law

Postby Number81 » Sat May 02, 2009 11:30 am

I talked to a JAG recruiter for the Air Force yesterday and went through some specifics about their selection process. I think I got pretty straight answers, which basically reconfirm everything the people in this thread have already said.

The #1 thing was the desire to serve as an Air Force JAG. #2 was public interest work. #3/#4 were grades and school. But, it didn't seem like school counted any more than grades. I agree that the first 2 recruiting points are probably the most important for what the various branches are looking at. But, there is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between a Top 10 school and a Tier 4 school. We get a lot of transfer students at Emory that were literally #1 or #2 in their class from a Tier 3, and they end up average or worse when they get here. I guess I harped on this before, but I agree with the public service aspect being really important. But if you are going to consider academics, then I don't see why they would not do it the right way.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Sat May 02, 2009 12:01 pm

partymidget wrote:Rotor, do you believe the location of law school has any advantages in being accepted to Navy JAG? For example, would going to school in San Diego have more advantages because of the tremendous Navy presence there?


I definitely agree with rotor - no direct advantage at all. If you want to do internships, it will of course help to be close to a base. Also, when you do your official interview, you'll be much closer to a higher-ranking JAG, which can help your application.

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Yointer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Yointer » Sat May 02, 2009 2:29 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:The JAG internship is something I can recommend without any hesitation.

[...]

If you get the opportunity, do not pass it up, especially if you are on the fence about entering an active duty commitment.


Patrick, on your advice I accepted a JAG internship with the Navy for this summer. Do you have any suggestions about areas of practice I should express a preference for if given the opportunity. Should I seek a variety of experience or focus on those areas in which I have the most interest?

Navy JAG interns and officers: PM me if you'd like to know my duty location.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sat May 02, 2009 2:41 pm

Yointer wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:The JAG internship is something I can recommend without any hesitation.

[...]

If you get the opportunity, do not pass it up, especially if you are on the fence about entering an active duty commitment.


Patrick, on your advice I accepted a JAG internship with the Navy for this summer. Do you have any suggestions about areas of practice I should express a preference for if given the opportunity. Should I seek a variety of experience or focus on those areas in which I have the most interest?

Navy JAG interns and officers: PM me if you'd like to know my duty location.

Congrats Yointer!

Big Navy values well-rounded officers so go for a broad range of experience. However as a junior JAG, you'll probably get a lot of UCMJ/courts martial work, so make sure that "well rounded" includes a healthy dose of trial type work. (Edit: Remember, if you get a broad range of experience you may find something that you didn't know that you would love!)

Attributed to John Paul Jones, and still applicable in spirit, if not the letter (at least I like to think so)!

Qualifications of a Naval Officer

It is by no means enough that an officer of the Navy should be a capable mariner. He must be that, of course, but also a great deal more. He should be as well a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and the nicest sense of personal honor.

He should be the soul of tact, patience, justice, firmness, kindness, and charity.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sat May 02, 2009 3:31 pm

All Navy vets here have to be cheering for "General Quarters" at the Kentucky Derby today!

A GQ/Dunkirk exacta would be huge for its naval connections!

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sat May 02, 2009 8:22 pm

Rotor wrote:All Navy vets here have to be cheering for "General Quarters" at the Kentucky Derby today!

A GQ/Dunkirk exacta would be huge for its naval connections!

And this is why I rarely bet on the ponies! My wife has better luck picking the pretty gray one than I do by the name...(though she woulda been out today too...)

texaslawyer
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Re: Military Law

Postby texaslawyer » Tue May 05, 2009 9:17 am

Does anyone know if the Coast Guard has a JAG program ? They used to and from what I remember it was a direct commissioning program and looked like a good deal to me. I know they did have this program.

Cantiljp
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Re: Military Law

Postby Cantiljp » Thu May 14, 2009 3:18 pm

Does anyone have an idea of how many spots are available each year for the JAG (ARMY, NAVY, AF)? Not looking for exact just a ballpark estimate.

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Yointer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Yointer » Thu May 14, 2009 4:52 pm

texaslawyer wrote:Does anyone know if the Coast Guard has a JAG program ? They used to and from what I remember it was a direct commissioning program and looked like a good deal to me. I know they did have this program.


http://www.uscg.mil/legal/ - for general information.

http://www.uscg.mil/legal/recruit/Career_Home.asp - for information about the Direct Commission Lawyer Program.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Thu May 14, 2009 5:47 pm

Cantiljp wrote:Does anyone have an idea of how many spots are available each year for the JAG (ARMY, NAVY, AF)? Not looking for exact just a ballpark estimate.



if you go to the army JAGcnet site, you can see their list of offers given for their most recent board, that'll give you an idea

--LinkRemoved--)/C6F69EC9A7DAFC6B852575A1006364DB/$FILE/AD%20Select%20and%20Alternate%20List%20(FY%2009,%20Spring).pdf

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu May 14, 2009 11:58 pm

Cantiljp wrote:Does anyone have an idea of how many spots are available each year for the JAG (ARMY, NAVY, AF)? Not looking for exact just a ballpark estimate.


I believe Air Force JAG is 120 a year. Keep in mind this is from a variety of sources: ROTC/USAF Academy Grads/Active Duty Officers in the FLEP/ELP/Ed Delay programs, law students in the GLP/OYCP programs, direct commission 3Ls/civilians, etc.




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