Military Law

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CFC_Essien
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Re: Military Law

Postby CFC_Essien » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:19 pm

wannabejag wrote:
CFC_Essien wrote:
maxball12 wrote:I don't really have an opinion on this argument because I don't know the answer, and no one does except those serving on the boards making the decision. However, the ones arguing against the Col are missing the point. He is speaking to the current state of the economy, the current state of the JAG applicant pool; not the makeup of the pool years ago when the economy was not as bad. So, the fact you can cite the opinion of current JAGs is quite frankly completely irrelevant and completely baseless. They got into the JAG Corps at a time unlike the one we are currently in. That's what cracks me up most about the current JAGs I speak to, because they are always so optimistic when you tell them your resume, but they speak from their own experience applying to the JAG Corps, which could not have been more different than ours.


Exactly. I realize there are always exceptions to the rule. I'm not saying you have to be first in your class at Harvard to get ino the JAG Corps, you just have to be in the top third.


No, you don't. This bored has just duped you into thinking that if you go anywhere average and get average grades you are stuck in shit law all your life. I don't recommend getting bad grades obviously, but it doesn't make you an auto out for JAG, at least Army JAG that is. I can not speak for the other branches.


I guess sarcasm doesn't translate too well over these boards. Obviously one need not graduate from Harvard to get into JAGC, but I'm in line with the aforementioned argument that things ain't what they used to be, i.e. economic factors have contributed to a more competitive selectee-pool and this enormous emphasis on "the whole person" and "the interview" and etc. may be slightly exaggerated as a result. Doing well on the interview will obviously help you, but I'd bet if the branches were to disclose the statistics on their most recent selectees then the numbers for class rank, law review, lsat score and the like will be higher as of late.

MilotheCloud
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Re: Military Law

Postby MilotheCloud » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:10 pm

Where is that school list from?

My school is listed for 1 selectee...

I applied and my friend applied. They may have even been others.

You have no idea how nervous you've made me now :D

maxball12
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Re: Military Law

Postby maxball12 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:36 pm

Everyone relax. He posted the list from Spring 2011.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:42 pm

FlanAl wrote:Do the internships generally lead to a permanent offer kinda like summering at a firm? I don't know anything about it but maybe some of the difference is between people who have been going for it since 1L vs. people applying as 3Ls?


In respect to USAF:

There is no formal offer given at the end of an internship or anything like that. That said, you will often find many current JAGs that came in through DAP were interns, present company included. I would say for DAPers in my JASOC class, former interns were in majority verus non-interns. If you have a successful internship (i.e., you produced coherent work product, developed good relationships with the officers and enlisted, carried yourself like someone with the potential to be a good officer down the road, were someone that other JAGs would want to work with) you will be in very good shape. All of the interns I have worked with over the past couple years that met the above criteria were picked up, though it could still take 2-3 boards before they made the cut. Those interns that I could collectively classify as "average" were not selected.

With the litany of posts re: JAG selection today, a few have been on the mark (though it appears some would argue my advice here is suspect in that I was selected in 2007 and therefore no longer appreciate the rigors of the selection process). Ideally, SJAs are evaluating applicants as future officers (whole person concept - exceptional in all possible facets, from moral character to athletics) and Judge Advocates (skills as an attorney). It is a challenge for an applicant off the street to sell himself/herself to an SJA that they check all the boxes for both an officer and JAG. Those that pull it off generally have a background that does some of the talking for them – prior military service, experience in government/public interest, etc. The benefit of the internship is that it is a 10-week window to demonstrate these skills – you can PT with the office, interact with the Shirts and Commanders of the various squadrons, work with both enlisted paralegals and fellow JAGs, etc. It allows the SJA in their recommendation to say that they know you would be a good fit wearing a uniform in a legal office because they personally saw you in action.

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scBlueDevil
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Re: Military Law

Postby scBlueDevil » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:48 pm

I saved the Army JAGC selects lists for previous cycles. For the previous two fall selection boards, the spreadsheets released online were created on the first Friday of the new year. The fall FY2010 list was created on 8 January 2010 at 17:23. The fall FY2011 list was created on 7 January 2011 at 11:43. (Edit: OK, technically, the FY2010 list was created on the second Friday of the New Year, but you get the point.)
Last edited by scBlueDevil on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Military Law

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:56 pm

Bah, no AF for me.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:41 pm

dreakol wrote:
brownshoe wrote:Relatively new Navy JAG - T2, top 15%, 168, prior naval officer. Good luck everyone.


why did you list your lsat score? does navy jag care about that?


Yeah, they do. I can't tell you how much it's weighted, but they specifically ask for it. Beyond that, I've heard various board members talk about it as a factor.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:15 pm

The past several posts are all a bunch of baseless conjecture from people who have no actual experience in the JAGC.

You will find recently commissioned JAGs at the top of their class and others at the bottom of the class. And they will be JAGs from HYS all the way to Tier 4 schools. Any recent selects for Active Duty or an internship will know what's what.

Potential future applicants: Don't let the past several posts discourage an application, no matter what position you're in. I say this as a FY 2011 Army AD select.

wannabejag
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Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:41 am

Esquire wrote:The past several posts are all a bunch of baseless conjecture from people who have no actual experience in the JAGC.

You will find recently commissioned JAGs at the top of their class and others at the bottom of the class. And they will be JAGs from HYS all the way to Tier 4 schools. Any recent selects for Active Duty or an internship will know what's what.

Potential future applicants: Don't let the past several posts discourage an application, no matter what position you're in. I say this as a FY 2011 Army AD select.


You mean that TLS Forums is not the end all be all to a persons employment prospects?? You don't say.

Esquires post is in fact the most easily summed up relevant posting on this page.
Last edited by wannabejag on Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

wannabejag
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Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:44 am

[/quote]

I guess sarcasm doesn't translate too well over these boards. Obviously one need not graduate from Harvard to get into JAGC, but I'm in line with the aforementioned argument that things ain't what they used to be, i.e. economic factors have contributed to a more competitive selectee-pool and this enormous emphasis on "the whole person" and "the interview" and etc. may be slightly exaggerated as a result. Doing well on the interview will obviously help you, but I'd bet if the branches were to disclose the statistics on their most recent selectees then the numbers for class rank, law review, lsat score and the like will be higher as of late.[/quote]


You really don't get it. The numbers would be skewed in comparison to what you are really thinking. There is a huge percentage of people who don't qualify to be in the military period. As a lawyer, as a cook, as an anything. Add more applications to the pool, and you will still findthat 2/3 people can't qualify for basic enlistment anyhow. Sure the numbers would be altered, but it is light years away from how you are thinking. This isn't Corporate America.

fo sho
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:09 am

Re: Military Law

Postby fo sho » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:14 am

Can anyone give me any advice on whether previously being in ROTC (AF) might affect my chances of being selected for jag corps? I was in ROTC for a little over a year before dropping out for a few reasons. I actually took a scholarship about 3 weeks before deciding to quit, so the process to leave was much more involved, but I was honorably discharged so there doesn't seem to have been any adverse effects in that case.

Would it be a matter of me answering questions in an interview about it, or would it be something that would automatically raise a flag on my application?

CFC_Essien
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby CFC_Essien » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:06 am

Don't get what? Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. What does a huge percentage of people not qualifying for the military have to do with anything?

Yes, although I know a few JAGs across the branches, my opinion is conjecture. No, I have not been on a Selection Board. Nor am I best buds with those who have. All I'm saying is that I THINK we would be remiss if we didn't acknowledge that "the whole person" may be a function of increased competition due to today's economy (along with other factors, yes).

That being said, I BELIEVE that the Army does add more weight to "the other factors" than Coast Guard, Air Force, or Navy -- but only because they tend to select more candidates. If I had to liken any branch to Corporate America's competitiveness it would be probably be Navy. And Marine JAGC is just crazy ****.

Like many of you, I remain hopeful in my aspirations of entering JAGC (and I do hope that all of us who want to serve do get in someday). I don't want or mean to dissuade anyone from the path, and you should keep applying. But I also don't think we can be blind to our surroundings...

wannabejag
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:23 am

CFC_Essien wrote:
wannabejag wrote:


Don't get what? Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. What does a huge percentage of people not qualifying for the military have to do with anything?



Why is that confusing?? I would think it has to do with everything since JAG IS THE MILITARY. If 30 people submit applications, and 20 of them are 300 lb heffers are you up against 30 applicants??...NO, you are up against 10. Honestly, the hardest part is getting accepted to JOIN THE MILITARY...everything else comes after that.

CFC_Essien
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby CFC_Essien » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:36 am

We're not talking about disqualifiers. We're talking about LSAT scores, GPAs, educational institutions and the like.

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:50 am

Army JARO website is back up. Nothing new posted yet.

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:08 pm

Pulling together all of my materials for AF JAG GLP application. Going to schedule the SJA interview shortly.

I just noticed that the application will accept a writing sample of up to 10 pages (optional). I ended up with my lowest grade in LRW (median). Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it would be wise to include a portion of that memo as a writing sample or just not submit anything?

CFC_Essien
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Re: Military Law

Postby CFC_Essien » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:12 pm

Submitting anything is better than nothing. Before my interview with the SJA awhile back, one of the captains told me she has never heard of anyone being accepted without submitting a writing sample.

shock259 wrote:Pulling together all of my materials for AF JAG GLP application. Going to schedule the SJA interview shortly.

I just noticed that the application will accept a writing sample of up to 10 pages (optional). I ended up with my lowest grade in LRW (median). Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it would be wise to include a portion of that memo as a writing sample or just not submit anything?

wannabejag
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Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:47 pm

CFC_Essien wrote:We're not talking about disqualifiers. We're talking about LSAT scores, GPAs, educational institutions and the like.


LMAO..why would you not talk about DQ factors when that is the most relevant aspect of the process.

Maybe thats what you are talking about now, in attempt to be right...but what you said was that given the economic situation the application pool is immense, and that other factors come into play (even though you have no experience with these claims) and that they want Tier 1 Harvard Types.

What Im saying is bring the applications on, because the average joe cannot qualify for military service in any capacity...hence that counters/crosses out any inflated numbers game. And I am correct.

CFC_Essien
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby CFC_Essien » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:14 pm

DQ factors are the most relevant aspect of the process? That's why all the applications make you take a self-administered PT prior to the interview? Or that's why there are no medical waivers available? Nevermind.

Well, here's something I think we can agree on -- let's hope Obama's unveiling of a leaner military this morning doesn't mean a smaller JAGC...

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blink
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Re: Military Law

Postby blink » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:43 pm

I've read through most of this thread and I haven't seen anything about the PLC-Law program in the Marines. Can anyone tell me more about it? Additionally, if anyone has any idea if this sort of program exists in any other branch, please let me know.

This is all I know about it. http://media.marines.com/uploads/document/plc_-_law_pathway.pdf

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Rocky Estoppel
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:56 pm

blink wrote:I've read through most of this thread and I haven't seen anything about the PLC-Law program in the Marines. Can anyone tell me more about it? Additionally, if anyone has any idea if this sort of program exists in any other branch, please let me know.

This is all I know about it. http://media.marines.com/uploads/document/plc_-_law_pathway.pdf
Be ready to produce a perfect or near perfect PFT score to be accepted. If you can do that, plus show a commitment and desire to be a Marine, that's a good starting point to being accepted for OCS.

Perfect PFT:

20 Pull-ups
100 Crunches in 2 Minutes
18:00 3 Mile Run

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:02 pm

blink wrote:I've read through most of this thread and I haven't seen anything about the PLC-Law program in the Marines. Can anyone tell me more about it? Additionally, if anyone has any idea if this sort of program exists in any other branch, please let me know.

This is all I know about it. http://media.marines.com/uploads/document/plc_-_law_pathway.pdf


The forums at MarineOCS.com are probably your best source of info. Lots of helpful applicants, candidates and officers over there.

shock259
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Re: Military Law

Postby shock259 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Thanks for the response on the writing sample! Glad I asked...

Per the Marines, there isn't much Marine JAG info here. I'd recommend checking out marineocs.com for Marine Officer information. Marine JAGs go through all of the same officer training as other Marine Officers (OCS, TBS), so that forum will be very useful. They also have a JAG specific forum and some JAG specific info.

I'm a 1st year student who is applying to the April board for a PLC Law contract, so I can answer any specific questions to the best of my ability. The gist of the program is that you apply as a first or second year (not third) to a selection board. They look at your physical fitness scores, class rank, leadership, letters of rec, etc. If you are picked up, you get the opportunity to prove yourself at Officer Candidate School (OCS), which has a ~30% fail rate. Think boot camp for officers, but they'll kick you out if you aren't leadership material. You'll do OCS for 10 weeks during the subsequent summer. If you pass OCS, you'll get commissioned as an inactive officer. There's no ROTC or other requirements for the remainder of your law school career (my OSO told me to do 3 things: stay out of trouble, get good grades, and stay in shape). When you graduate and pass the bar, you'll do TBS for 6 months with all other Marine Officers. After that, you'll go to UMSC JAG school for a few months. Then you'll be assigned.

The applications for each of the branches is different. AF/USMC let you apply your first year. All branches let you apply from your second year on, but there are many nuances. The best source of information will be the branch's website + this thread. Unfortunately the USMC sites are not particularly helpful, but the other ones are better. They usually have phone numbers too.

wannabejag
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Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:32 pm

CFC_Essien wrote:That's why all the applications make you take a self-administered PT prior to the interview? Or that's why there are no medical waivers available?


Submitting an application and actually NOT being DQ are two very different things. Lets also not forget about the Security Clearance Process, which is completly seperate from commisioning and every officer needs at MINIMUM a Secret. I have two officers with me who cannot get cleared for a TS...there careers are screwed right now. So please, please keep acting like you are an expert when this is what I do for a living (just not as a lawyer).

CFC_Essien
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Re: Military Law

Postby CFC_Essien » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:08 pm

We're talking about making the cut as far as Selection Boards are concerned. Obviously there are other hurdles afterward -- medical, security clearance, making it through officer training school (or whatever equivalent thereof), etc.

Wannabejag, I'm assuming you're applying for Army. Are you applying to other branches as well?




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