Military Law

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brownshoe
Posts: 74
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:06 pm

Relatively new Navy JAG - T2, top 15%, 168, prior naval officer. Good luck everyone.

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FlanAl
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Re: Military Law

Postby FlanAl » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:38 pm

does any know anything about the term time externships that the different departments offer in terms of difficulty of getting accepted and the chances of them leading to employment after graduation? i know the summer programs are super hard to get but there doesn't seem to be a lot of into regarding the term time externships on this thread.

babyt8_99
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Re: Military Law

Postby babyt8_99 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:52 pm

FlanAl wrote:does any know anything about the term time externships that the different departments offer in terms of difficulty of getting accepted and the chances of them leading to employment after graduation? i know the summer programs are super hard to get but there doesn't seem to be a lot of into regarding the term time externships on this thread.


I did a term time externship (Fall 2010). I had no problem getting it. I called the SJA and requested a meeting. I brought in my grades, a resume and the terms of my school's externship program. It was one of the best experiences (if you're willing to work around problems) I've had externing!

wordtoyourmother12
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby wordtoyourmother12 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:38 am

Patrick Bateman, this question might best be suited for you.

I was rejected by the Air Force for the December Board. Should I file a letter of reconsideration or re-interview and re-apply? I am not sure the second one is an option and the Air Force would probably prefer I just file the letter. What do you think?

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evilxs
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Re: Military Law

Postby evilxs » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:06 pm

Still waiting on Army Board and internship results.

For Air Force, any official word on whether there is an internship at all for next summer? Nothing on USAJobs that I have seen...

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Patrick Bateman
Posts: 595
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:28 pm

wordtoyourmother12 wrote:Patrick Bateman, this question might best be suited for you.

I was rejected by the Air Force for the December Board. Should I file a letter of reconsideration or re-interview and re-apply? I am not sure the second one is an option and the Air Force would probably prefer I just file the letter. What do you think?


As always, just the thoughts of a random JAG in the trenches, no connection or insight to the workings at JAX:

I am not aware of any prohibition against re-interviewing after one board. It is uncommon but that is only due to the fact that re-interviews after one board are unnecessary for the majority of applicants. If something significant has occurred between now and your initial SJA interview that makes you look exceptionally bright and shiny (e.g., you won a Pulitzer, made sense of Donnie Darko), it may be worthwhile to have a new interview so these developments can be incorporated into the SJA recommendation. It can also be a good idea to re-interview at a different base if you feel you truly tanked your first interview. Beyond that something that extreme, I would recommend filing for reconsideration.

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:48 pm

Answered a bunch of PMs. I don't log in much but I do check the forum from time to time.

With regards to stats, I don't think you'll find much of a pattern. IMO. I'd say the only definitive thing is the military finds the candidate to have the ability to be an officer in the US Military.

dreakol
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Re: Military Law

Postby dreakol » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:10 pm

brownshoe wrote:Relatively new Navy JAG - T2, top 15%, 168, prior naval officer. Good luck everyone.


why did you list your lsat score? does navy jag care about that?

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col kurtz
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Re: Military Law

Postby col kurtz » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:39 am

Though the sample size is pretty small, I think a pattern has emerged. The JAG Corps of the various branches are competing for the same candidates as the large firms, that is, the archetypical top-tiered law review member.

It probably used to be the case, maybe 5 or so years ago, that "the whole person" meant the TTTer who finished in the top 1/3 of his class and participated in a little community service.

However, the downturn in the economy has put the JAGC in the position that used to be occupied exclusively by the top firms. This is pure supply and demand. Because the top firms aren't hiring as much, the middle-tier candidates who used to occupy the public sector are now competing for jobs with the top-tier candidates who have been forced into the public sector because of the downturn.

Judging by the 4% accessions rate, the cancellation of several boards, and the limited sample of candidates posting on this forum, I think it is fair to say that the various JAG Corps have adjusted their recruitment strategy to account for the surge in higher-qualified applicants, but their recruitment criteria and propaganda have not yet caught up.

In other words, if you belong to the middle like me, even though JAG will still waste its and your time interviewing you, don't waste any more time pursuing JAG and start exploring other avenues.

wannabejag
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Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:09 am

col kurtz wrote:Though the sample size is pretty small, I think a pattern has emerged. The JAG Corps of the various branches are competing for the same candidates as the large firms, that is, the archetypical top-tiered law review member.

It probably used to be the case, maybe 5 or so years ago, that "the whole person" meant the TTTer who finished in the top 1/3 of his class and participated in a little community service.

However, the downturn in the economy has put the JAGC in the position that used to be occupied exclusively by the top firms. This is pure supply and demand. Because the top firms aren't hiring as much, the middle-tier candidates who used to occupy the public sector are now competing for jobs with the top-tier candidates who have been forced into the public sector because of the downturn.

Judging by the 4% accessions rate, the cancellation of several boards, and the limited sample of candidates posting on this forum, I think it is fair to say that the various JAG Corps have adjusted their recruitment strategy to account for the surge in higher-qualified applicants, but their recruitment criteria and propaganda have not yet caught up.

In other words, if you belong to the middle like me, even though JAG will still waste its and your time interviewing you, don't waste any more time pursuing JAG and start exploring other avenues.


I think everyne in TLS places tooooo much emphisas on having to get a 179 LSAT and 4.1 GPA in order to put food on the table. JAG is selective, but look at the list of schools they have selected from. There are some serious TTTT schools listed and these people will have a great career. This is the list of schools that had someone selected for Army JAG this most previous board. It should be noted that the only schools who had more then one person selected were...Tulane, Florida Coastal, and Univ of Baltimore....not exactly in the top 14.

New York Law School
Univ of Louisville
Northeastern
Hamline
De Paul
Washington and Lee
Berkley
Univ of Miami
Texas Weslyan
John Marshall
Univ of Baltimore
George Washington
Oklahoma Ciy
Columbia
St Johns
Harvard
Univ of FL
Charleston School of Law
Univ of Notre Dame
Brooklyn
Tulane
Ohio State
Columbia
Fordham
Loyola
Univ of Maine
IU Indy
Univ of Memphis
Wake Forest
Univ of Richmond
Texas Tech
NC Central Univ
Gonzanga
Standford
NY
Univ of Michigan
Univ of Arizona
STCL
Washburn
Florida Coastal

CFC_Essien
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Re: Military Law

Postby CFC_Essien » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:42 am

As much as I don't want to believe col kurtz, I do feel s/he is right.

As far as those TTT schools go, something tells me those selectees weren't middle of the class...

wannabejag
Posts: 74
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Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:52 am

CFC_Essien wrote:As much as I don't want to believe col kurtz, I do feel s/he is right.

As far as those TTT schools go, something tells me those selectees weren't middle of the class...


Believe who you want. I work in Army JAG. Some of them I have personally spoke with and there are a few who were near the bottom of the class. I currently work with a former FSO (basically someone who interviews the applicants) and a lot of the game is the interview. We/they know the economy is terrible and if you can't articulate a reason why you want to be a part of the JAG Corps, you are probably SOL. Telling your inteviewer that you need a job and JAG is the best option you have right now isn't going to cut it. I am not saying it isn't competitive....but the basic consensus on this board is you have to be number 1 iin your class from Harvard to even make 45K and while the market is tough, there are other ways to be successful.

babyt8_99
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:21 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby babyt8_99 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:21 am

wannabejag wrote:
CFC_Essien wrote:As much as I don't want to believe col kurtz, I do feel s/he is right.

As far as those TTT schools go, something tells me those selectees weren't middle of the class...


Believe who you want. I work in Army JAG. Some of them I have personally spoke with and there are a few who were near the bottom of the class. I currently work with a former FSO (basically someone who interviews the applicants) and a lot of the game is the interview. We/they know the economy is terrible and if you can't articulate a reason why you want to be a part of the JAG Corps, you are probably SOL. Telling your inteviewer that you need a job and JAG is the best option you have right now isn't going to cut it. I am not saying it isn't competitive....but the basic consensus on this board is you have to be number 1 iin your class from Harvard to even make 45K and while the market is tough, there are other ways to be successful.


I agree! A lot of the JAGs I worked with who were within their first year of service where from TTT schools. But there are also a good number that were from T1 schools too. The overarching theme among them was a desire to serve above anything else. This said, I'm still nervous as all get out to find if whomever got my packet can see that. Lol

Texan09
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Texan09 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:20 pm

babyt8_99 wrote:
wannabejag wrote:
CFC_Essien wrote:As much as I don't want to believe col kurtz, I do feel s/he is right.

As far as those TTT schools go, something tells me those selectees weren't middle of the class...


Believe who you want. I work in Army JAG. Some of them I have personally spoke with and there are a few who were near the bottom of the class. I currently work with a former FSO (basically someone who interviews the applicants) and a lot of the game is the interview. We/they know the economy is terrible and if you can't articulate a reason why you want to be a part of the JAG Corps, you are probably SOL. Telling your inteviewer that you need a job and JAG is the best option you have right now isn't going to cut it. I am not saying it isn't competitive....but the basic consensus on this board is you have to be number 1 iin your class from Harvard to even make 45K and while the market is tough, there are other ways to be successful.


I agree! A lot of the JAGs I worked with who were within their first year of service where from TTT schools. But there are also a good number that were from T1 schools too. The overarching theme among them was a desire to serve above anything else. This said, I'm still nervous as all get out to find if whomever got my packet can see that. Lol


Agreed. My interviewer for the Army internship told me the most important aspect of the application was the interview and what she looked for was a desire to serve from someone that she could enjoy a beer with after work.

Also, the Army JAG recruitment site went down this morning. Hopefully so they can update the site with the list of selectees.

maxball12
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:52 am

Re: Military Law

Postby maxball12 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:16 pm

I don't really have an opinion on this argument because I don't know the answer, and no one does except those serving on the boards making the decision.
Last edited by maxball12 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

CFC_Essien
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Re: Military Law

Postby CFC_Essien » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:46 pm

maxball12 wrote:I don't really have an opinion on this argument because I don't know the answer, and no one does except those serving on the boards making the decision. However, the ones arguing against the Col are missing the point. He is speaking to the current state of the economy, the current state of the JAG applicant pool; not the makeup of the pool years ago when the economy was not as bad. So, the fact you can cite the opinion of current JAGs is quite frankly completely irrelevant and completely baseless. They got into the JAG Corps at a time unlike the one we are currently in. That's what cracks me up most about the current JAGs I speak to, because they are always so optimistic when you tell them your resume, but they speak from their own experience applying to the JAG Corps, which could not have been more different than ours.


Exactly. I realize there are always exceptions to the rule. I'm not saying you have to be first in your class at Harvard to get ino the JAG Corps, you just have to be in the top third.
Last edited by CFC_Essien on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

maxball12
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Re: Military Law

Postby maxball12 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:55 pm

No, I am sure school is absolutely irrelevant.
Last edited by maxball12 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NAOBERJU
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Re: Military Law

Postby NAOBERJU » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:05 pm

While grades are still important, I have to disagree with the previous assessment that the JAGC only looks at Harvard type candidates. I am not in the top ten percent of a T1 school. I am at a T2 school and I was selected for both the 1L Army and Navy internships last summer and just picked up for the Navy SP. In addition, the JAGs I worked with this summer were all new JAGs (the longest serving JAG was just shy of 2 years) and their grades and schools were all over the place. There were a couple who graduated from T10 but others who went to T2 and T3 schools. After going through the process I really think they do look at the "whole person." Granted someone with high grades from a T1 might get a check plus next to their application. However, I felt that it was the interview that was essential.

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FlanAl
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Re: Military Law

Postby FlanAl » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:14 pm

Do the internships generally lead to a permanent offer kinda like summering at a firm? I don't know anything about it but maybe some of the difference is between people who have been going for it since 1L vs. people applying as 3Ls?

leedleed
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Re: Military Law

Postby leedleed » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:42 pm

FlanAl wrote:Do the internships generally lead to a permanent offer kinda like summering at a firm? I don't know anything about it but maybe some of the difference is between people who have been going for it since 1L vs. people applying as 3Ls?


nope.

wannabejag
Posts: 74
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Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:54 pm

maxball12 wrote:I don't really have an opinion on this argument because I don't know the answer, and no one does except those serving on the boards making the decision. However, the ones arguing against the Col are missing the point. He is speaking to the current state of the economy, the current state of the JAG applicant pool; not the makeup of the pool years ago when the economy was not as bad. So, the fact you can cite the opinion of current JAGs is quite frankly completely irrelevant and completely baseless. They got into the JAG Corps at a time unlike the one we are currently in. That's what cracks me up most about the current JAGs I speak to, because they are always so optimistic when you tell them your resume, but they speak from their own experience applying to the JAG Corps, which could not have been more different than ours.


Thats not what I said. I said I talked to the FSO's. THE INTERVIEWERS. Plus, I have JAGs I work with who are 1LT, that means they joined in the last 6 months. I work in the enviroment, so you can believe the optimism if you want, Im telling you the reality of who I work with on a daily basis.

wannabejag
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:55 pm

Texan09 wrote:
babyt8_99 wrote:
wannabejag wrote:
CFC_Essien wrote:As much as I don't want to believe col kurtz, I do feel s/he is right.

As far as those TTT schools go, something tells me those selectees weren't middle of the class...


Believe who you want. I work in Army JAG. Some of them I have personally spoke with and there are a few who were near the bottom of the class. I currently work with a former FSO (basically someone who interviews the applicants) and a lot of the game is the interview. We/they know the economy is terrible and if you can't articulate a reason why you want to be a part of the JAG Corps, you are probably SOL. Telling your inteviewer that you need a job and JAG is the best option you have right now isn't going to cut it. I am not saying it isn't competitive....but the basic consensus on this board is you have to be number 1 iin your class from Harvard to even make 45K and while the market is tough, there are other ways to be successful.


I agree! A lot of the JAGs I worked with who were within their first year of service where from TTT schools. But there are also a good number that were from T1 schools too. The overarching theme among them was a desire to serve above anything else. This said, I'm still nervous as all get out to find if whomever got my packet can see that. Lol


Agreed. My interviewer for the Army internship told me the most important aspect of the application was the interview and what she looked for was a desire to serve from someone that she could enjoy a beer with after work.

Also, the Army JAG recruitment site went down this morning. Hopefully so they can update the site with the list of selectees.


The list is out. Thats where I pulled the list of schools from.

wannabejag
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:58 pm

CFC_Essien wrote:
maxball12 wrote:I don't really have an opinion on this argument because I don't know the answer, and no one does except those serving on the boards making the decision. However, the ones arguing against the Col are missing the point. He is speaking to the current state of the economy, the current state of the JAG applicant pool; not the makeup of the pool years ago when the economy was not as bad. So, the fact you can cite the opinion of current JAGs is quite frankly completely irrelevant and completely baseless. They got into the JAG Corps at a time unlike the one we are currently in. That's what cracks me up most about the current JAGs I speak to, because they are always so optimistic when you tell them your resume, but they speak from their own experience applying to the JAG Corps, which could not have been more different than ours.


Exactly. I realize there are always exceptions to the rule. I'm not saying you have to be first in your class at Harvard to get ino the JAG Corps, you just have to be in the top third.


No, you don't. This bored has just duped you into thinking that if you go anywhere average and get average grades you are stuck in shit law all your life. I don't recommend getting bad grades obviously, but it doesn't make you an auto out for JAG, at least Army JAG that is. I can not speak for the other branches.

wannabejag
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby wannabejag » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:00 pm

FlanAl wrote:Do the internships generally lead to a permanent offer kinda like summering at a firm? I don't know anything about it but maybe some of the difference is between people who have been going for it since 1L vs. people applying as 3Ls?


Well one major difference is just simply that on average 2/3's of people in America cannot qualify for Military Service...for many reasons....Medical, Criminal, Dependants..and all the X factor stuff people forget about.

Texan09
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Texan09 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:10 pm

wannabejag wrote:
The list is out. Thats where I pulled the list of schools from.


Is the list out for internships as well? The lists were not available yesterday. How did you access it?




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