Military Law

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Neko83
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Re: Military Law

Postby Neko83 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:13 pm

BHL wrote:
J-Rod wrote:
soundgardener wrote:I just want to thank everyone for all of the great information.

Are you guys really 6'1" and 145-150? This sounds like freakishly skinny. I'm the same height and weigh 190, and I am pretty damn skinny!



haha, yeah, I am . . . but it's not as freakish as it sounds . . . I swam for the US, my personal best is 27 pull-ups, and 300 crunches in 3 minutes . . . not to mention I often bench, curl, lat-pull, etc. more than guys outweighing me by 30-40 lbs

and 6'1, 190 isn't skinny, sorry bud

You can be 6'0", 190 lbs., and be fairly skinny. I think Tom Zbikowski is 6' and weighs around that and he's boxed professionally and plays in the NFL. It's not like he's a heavyweight boxer or playing on the line either. I wouldn't call him overweight at all, but would consider him to be skinny. However, I'm a bit bias since I'm roughly the same size and build as him.


Zbikowski is not skinny. He is a beast. Certainly not fat though.

E\/ERLAST
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Re: Military Law

Postby E\/ERLAST » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:11 am

zay wrote:I have a question regarding clerkships & JAG -- a lot of former district and circuit clerks wind up applying for the DoJ Honors program upon completion of their clerkships. Does JAG see a lot of applicants post-clerkship, and if so, how is that experience viewed (compared to say, private practice or being a DA, etc.)?



From what I have gathered from my own research, I do not see having a clerkship as having a large benefit for applying to JAG. JAG emphasizes trial experience/trial interest/etc. In other words, clerkship v. DA, I would assume the DA would have the one up based purely on trial experience.

I would encourage you to do a lot of research on that though. There are a lot of blogs out there of people who are currently or have already gone through ODS, Naval Justice School, etc.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:24 am

Re: Fitness

By no means does one have to be a collegiate athlete for AF JAG. While I once was lean and mean, law school and a staggering alcohol dependency have changed me quite a bit since I entered as a 1L. I'm still fit but hardly national rowing team fit.

So don't let me overstate the fitness requirements. At the same time, do not let me understate them. I was pretty surprised how fit and fast the JAGs in both my OTS and JASOC class were. We had 14 of 75 score perfects on the PT test in my JASOC class. More than I can count were in the Excellent category.

Be in the best shape as you can for your body type. No one is expecting a former cross country runner to be able to bench 315 or a more muscular guy to somehow get to a 31 inch waist. Focus on getting as fast and lean as possible as the run and waist measurement make up the bulk of the PT score. The point gains you pick up by dropping a minute off your 1.5 mile run are away higher than by going from 40 to 60 push ups.

There are plenty of round and soft Air Force officers out there. We are younger and do not have the benefit/clout of being a Field Grade that can get away with it. Also, as JAGs, we enforce the rules. As a result, we are under a microscope in terms of our own adhereance to those rules. Looking good in uniform and being fit is a big part of projecting the right JAG image on your base. Depending on your Wing/CC and SJA, fitness may be a very big deal.

Number81
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Re: Military Law

Postby Number81 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:43 am

Does anyone know the deal with joining the Reserves right now? I have a friend that said to look into that -- I'd get paid ~$400 per month for a weekend of work, possibly get some kind of loan repayment, and bump up my TIS/experience for purposes of promotions... Is this all true? And, would two years in the reserves make me more competitive (I'm a 1L) for a JAG position?
And, what if I joined the Reserves of, as an example, the Navy, then they reject me as a JAG, and then the army offers me a JAG position. Am I restricted from becoming a JAG in the other branch?


Also, do any of you folks have a good grasp on how often students from top-20 law schools, that are in good shape, are getting turned down from these JAG positions?

AndyB617
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Re: Military Law

Postby AndyB617 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:12 am

patrick, if you don't mind me asking, what school did you go to? do you know any other JAGs that did not go to T-14 schools?

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:39 pm

AndyB617 wrote:patrick, if you don't mind me asking, what school did you go to? do you know any other JAGs that did not go to T-14 schools?


None of the JAGs I've known have been T14. My closest JAG friend graduated from NYLS and is quite successful. (should easily make O-5 when the results are released soon).

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:48 pm

Number81 wrote:Does anyone know the deal with joining the Reserves right now? I have a friend that said to look into that -- I'd get paid ~$400 per month for a weekend of work, possibly get some kind of loan repayment, and bump up my TIS/experience for purposes of promotions... Is this all true? And, would two years in the reserves make me more competitive (I'm a 1L) for a JAG position?
And, what if I joined the Reserves of, as an example, the Navy, then they reject me as a JAG, and then the army offers me a JAG position. Am I restricted from becoming a JAG in the other branch?


Also, do any of you folks have a good grasp on how often students from top-20 law schools, that are in good shape, are getting turned down from these JAG positions?

I would caution you against joining the Reserves if you are in/about to start LS. While you may get a slight bump when you apply for JAG, there is a distinct possibility that you could be called to active duty and have to put school on hold.

If you do decide to go that route, switching services is possible, but may be an administrative pain in the @$$. Many times there are rank reductions for interservice transfers, but as a JAG you'd just go in at the rank of all the other JAGs joining with you.

wreckem
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Re: Military Law

Postby wreckem » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:59 pm

As someone who has been wanting to go the JAG route Ive done my own research in to the various branches of the JAG Corps. I have to say it appears it doesnt matter where you go to schools. Theres a fairly even number of T1, T2, T3, and T4 schools represented. Looking at the Armys board selections Cooley and other meat grinders are represented well every cycle. It seems where you go isn't as important as how well you do.

Also most USMC JAGs appear to go through OCS before Law School which is why one poster mentioned something about 0L's.

Also while the USMC and AF are line officers, the Army and Navy are not. They are strictly staff officers, although Army can participate in other military training if they want as also noted.

There are two things that might hold me back.

1. is vision, from what I am aware if you are over +/- 8.00 diopters you won't pass the medical eval. My vision is at -5.25/-6.25. Over the last six years one eye has been getting worse -.5 every two years the other -1.0 every two years. Im hoping its finally stablized.

2. my credit history. I was young and dumb when I was 18 and 19. I raked up $4000 in credit card debt and was never able to pay it. However I am now 27(well about to be) and those mistakes are no longer on my credit report. I currently only have three negatives things on my credit report one from 2004 and one from 2005. The 2004 was from a phone bill, and the 2005 was ER Dr bills. Everything was under $200. Since that time I have never missed a payment and slowly have rebuilt my credit. My question is, since in most states debt falls off credit reports after 7 years and I probably wont be submitting an application until Fall 2011, at which point the only negative thin will be the 2005 ER bills. Will the military/DOD be able to see the items that have fall off? Should one mention it if it is not on your credit report? I dont want to unintentionally hide anything.

Number81
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Re: Military Law

Postby Number81 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:16 pm

It seems where you go isn't as important as how well you do.

I appreciate the fact that the military is looking for things outside of academics and so forth.
But, this just seems so absolutely ridiculous to me. Is this seriously true? In this economy, everybody in school even at the top-10's has to be trying very hard. Do these recruiters really think that a top 5% at Cooley is a better student than a top-20 % student at UVA?
Last edited by Number81 on Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

wreckem
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Re: Military Law

Postby wreckem » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:28 pm

Number81 wrote:
It seems where you go isn't as important as how well you do.

This just seems so absolutely ridiculous to me. Is this seriously true? In this economy, everybody in school even at the top-10's has to be trying very hard. Do these recruiters really think that a top 5% at Cooley is a better student than a top-20 % student at UVA?


Like I said based on the Army board selections theres an even number of each tier. Cooley is represented quite well. The Army is less selective than the other branches and other branches dont post their selection boards but all tiers are likely well represented.

You give an example of a top 20% student at UVA and a top 5% at Cooley. The UVA student would be just as likely or more likely to get in. The issue it seems is more along the lines there are more 3rd and 4th tier people applying than 1st and 2nd tier. There arent to many people going to T14 or T30 schools that are diehard into the idea of the JAG corp. Plus the JAG Corp really arent looking for people that are looking to use the JAG corps as a stop gap job for a few years just to bide time/get experiance.

Number81
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Re: Military Law

Postby Number81 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:48 pm

wreckem wrote:
Number81 wrote:
It seems where you go isn't as important as how well you do.

This just seems so absolutely ridiculous to me. Is this seriously true? In this economy, everybody in school even at the top-10's has to be trying very hard. Do these recruiters really think that a top 5% at Cooley is a better student than a top-20 % student at UVA?


Like I said based on the Army board selections theres an even number of each tier. Cooley is represented quite well. The Army is less selective than the other branches and other branches dont post their selection boards but all tiers are likely well represented.

You give an example of a top 20% student at UVA and a top 5% at Cooley. The UVA student would be just as likely or more likely to get in. The issue it seems is more along the lines there are more 3rd and 4th tier people applying than 1st and 2nd tier. There arent to many people going to T14 or T30 schools that are diehard into the idea of the JAG corp. Plus the JAG Corp really arent looking for people that are looking to use the JAG corps as a stop gap job for a few years just to bide time/get experiance.


This explanation is reasonable, and is what I thought was actually the case. Your original post made me assume that the JAG Corps did actually care about academics, but that they held people that did well at a T4 in higher regard than a person that did average at a top-10.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:14 pm

Number81 wrote:
It seems where you go isn't as important as how well you do.

I appreciate the fact that the military is looking for things outside of academics and so forth.
But, this just seems so absolutely ridiculous to me. Is this seriously true? In this economy, everybody in school even at the top-10's has to be trying very hard. Do these recruiters really think that a top 5% at Cooley is a better student than a top-20 % student at UVA?


It's not they think that he/she is a better student. But what is much more likely is that they think he/she will make a better officer. Of course, that is where the service is actually looking at the "whole-person," encompassing much more than grades.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:25 pm

brownshoe wrote:
Number81 wrote:
It seems where you go isn't as important as how well you do.

I appreciate the fact that the military is looking for things outside of academics and so forth.
But, this just seems so absolutely ridiculous to me. Is this seriously true? In this economy, everybody in school even at the top-10's has to be trying very hard. Do these recruiters really think that a top 5% at Cooley is a better student than a top-20 % student at UVA?


It's not they think that he/she is a better student. But what is much more likely is that they think he/she will make a better officer. Of course, that is where the service is actually looking at the "whole-person," encompassing much more than grades.


Highly credited reply Brownshoe.

At my present base, with among the largest base legal offices in terms of AD personnel, has a double Harvard grad as my immediate supervisor and a T4 grad as my SJA. That, in a nutshell, is the JAG Corps. We are an results oriented business, no one gets too excited about where your JD came from.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:11 pm

wreckem wrote:As someone who has been wanting to go the JAG route Ive done my own research in to the various branches of the JAG Corps. I have to say it appears it doesnt matter where you go to schools. Theres a fairly even number of T1, T2, T3, and T4 schools represented. Looking at the Armys board selections Cooley and other meat grinders are represented well every cycle. It seems where you go isn't as important as how well you do.

Also most USMC JAGs appear to go through OCS before Law School which is why one poster mentioned something about 0L's.

Also while the USMC and AF are line officers, the Army and Navy are not. They are strictly staff officers, although Army can participate in other military training if they want as also noted.

There are two things that might hold me back.

1. is vision, from what I am aware if you are over +/- 8.00 diopters you won't pass the medical eval. My vision is at -5.25/-6.25. Over the last six years one eye has been getting worse -.5 every two years the other -1.0 every two years. Im hoping its finally stablized.

2. my credit history. I was young and dumb when I was 18 and 19. I raked up $4000 in credit card debt and was never able to pay it. However I am now 27(well about to be) and those mistakes are no longer on my credit report. I currently only have three negatives things on my credit report one from 2004 and one from 2005. The 2004 was from a phone bill, and the 2005 was ER Dr bills. Everything was under $200. Since that time I have never missed a payment and slowly have rebuilt my credit. My question is, since in most states debt falls off credit reports after 7 years and I probably wont be submitting an application until Fall 2011, at which point the only negative thin will be the 2005 ER bills. Will the military/DOD be able to see the items that have fall off? Should one mention it if it is not on your credit report? I dont want to unintentionally hide anything.

As has been said before, the medical issues need to be addressed to each of the service recruiters & docs b/c the standards are very specific. As a Staff Corps officer in the Navy, I can't imagine you'd have much problem as long as you are correctable to 20/20 (or close). But again, ask.

As for the credit, with the story you've shared, I would say you wouldn't have much trouble...But be sure you tell the truth about your credit on your SF-86 (security clearance request) or any other place it asks. I had dozens of people who were threatened with removal of their security clearances. In the end, the four who actually lost it was NOT due to the poor financial decisions in the past, but rather the attempt to lie about it on the SF-86 or in the interview. Be up front. Confirm you've learned from it. You shouldn't have any issue on that front.

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Yointer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Yointer » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:19 am

Any TLS-ers doing summer internships with Navy or Air Force JAG?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:15 am

Yointer wrote:Any TLS-ers doing summer internships with Navy or Air Force JAG?


I did the AF internship as a 2L in 2007. Not sure if that will help or not.

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Yointer
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Re: Military Law

Postby Yointer » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:03 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Yointer wrote:Any TLS-ers doing summer internships with Navy or Air Force JAG?


I did the AF internship as a 2L in 2007. Not sure if that will help or not.


Patrick, having interned with the AF prior to commissioning, did you find that the internship gave you some insight into what life as a JAG is like? Would you recommend the internship as a worthwhile summer job?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:26 am

Yointer wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
Yointer wrote:Any TLS-ers doing summer internships with Navy or Air Force JAG?


I did the AF internship as a 2L in 2007. Not sure if that will help or not.


Patrick, having interned with the AF prior to commissioning, did you find that the internship gave you some insight into what life as a JAG is like? Would you recommend the internship as a worthwhile summer job?


The JAG internship is something I can recommend without any hesitation.

Way back when I was a 2L, I was sitting with two Chicago BigLaw offers and then Army & AF JAG internship offers. I come from a family with zero military history so I really had no idea what JAG really entailed. I ended up deciding that I could do my 10 weeks with the internship and get a good idea of what I would be in for. Worst case, I would hate it, hopefully be able to pull a law firm out of 3L OCI (this is long before the economy imploded), and at least know I gave it the ol college try. Best case I would find I loved it and have a more full appreciation for what working at a Base Legal Office would involve.

I was at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio. It was a fantastic experience. I was fortunate to have two fellow interns that were active duty FLEPers (Captains from a different AFSC who had the AF paying their way through law school) so I was able to learn a ton about the military in a really low threat way. I was really impressed that the JAGs never tried to "sell" me on joining the AF. It was their enthusaim and love for the job that sold me on putting in my active duty application.

I was assigned in Civil Law and did a ton of interesting work. My boss, the head of Civil, was very pro-active in making sure I got as much out of the experience as possible. He made to vary the work I was getting and was always available when I invetitably hit a road block. I also spent some time with military justice which was a lot of fun. I sat in on two special courts-martial and one summary. I spent a day touring and learning about our C-5 Galaxys.

Having recently graduated from JASOC, I have to say that the internship seems to be the unofficial way to greatly increasee your chances for being picked up for a direct commission. The vast majority of the direct commissions in my class had the internship under their belt. I've also heard from more senior JAGs that it is something the accessions boards look favorably upon. That said, it is not a make or break thing. We did have direct commissions that did not have the internship.

I would not trade my 2L summer for anything. I made 1/3rd of what my BigLaw friends did but I also had more fun and learned more than I thought possible. You will not get wined and dined the way summer associate programs do (or did) but I feel the internship is far more athentic. The legal reviews I wrote went to commanders. The legal assistance meetings I sat in on helped actual members and their dependants.

If you get the opportunity, do not pass it up, especially if you are on the fence about entering an active duty commitment.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:14 pm

not sure if this will help much either, but I'll be doing the Army 1L internship this summer . . . my assumption is that we won't be as involved as 2L interns would be, but it should still be pretty hands on. I, however, will be at the JAG school in Charlottesville, and not on an actual base. Rotor, Bateman, do you guys think I should still be able to get a pretty accurate view of JAG life even here at the school?

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partymidget
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Re: Military Law

Postby partymidget » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:40 pm

Does anyone have any idea how mobile regional law school degrees are after one completes their service commitment? I mean are people as limited to their law school regions after JAG as they are coming straight out of school?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:50 pm

J-Rod wrote:not sure if this will help much either, but I'll be doing the Army 1L internship this summer . . . my assumption is that we won't be as involved as 2L interns would be, but it should still be pretty hands on. I, however, will be at the JAG school in Charlottesville, and not on an actual base. Rotor, Bateman, do you guys think I should still be able to get a pretty accurate view of JAG life even here at the school?


That is a tough question. I have not had contact with the Army JAG School yet so it is hard for me to picture how they operate. At least at AFJAGS, a number of the instructors are also Senior Trial/Defense Counsels that practice for some of the year and teach for the other part. If Army has a similar set up, I can see you being exposed to a good deal.

I really don't know. Hopefully the Army can get you more information. Congrats again on landing the internship. I think it will be a great experience for you.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:54 pm

partymidget wrote:Does anyone have any idea how mobile regional law school degrees are after one completes their service commitment? I mean are people as limited to their law school regions after JAG as they are coming straight out of school?


That's a pretty broad question. You are not going to be as limited but I see that being in the Federal context. Most base level AF JAGs are also Special AUSAs in the Fed District their base occupies. I can see that lending itself to getting a leg up as a future AUSA in that area, one that might have been unlikely otherwise.

I guess for the bases near bigger cities, the odds of you interacting with local law firms are solid, esp on the civil litigation side. That might also open up some options.

Sorry I cannot be more specific. Your question really depends on a ton of different variables.

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:30 pm

J-Rod wrote:not sure if this will help much either, but I'll be doing the Army 1L internship this summer . . . my assumption is that we won't be as involved as 2L interns would be, but it should still be pretty hands on. I, however, will be at the JAG school in Charlottesville, and not on an actual base. Rotor, Bateman, do you guys think I should still be able to get a pretty accurate view of JAG life even here at the school?

I'm not a JAG so haven't been to the school and can't really say. I would suspect it will be different than "base life" but the folks who run the JAG school are probably pretty darned smart and won't waste your training time.

BHL
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Re: Military Law

Postby BHL » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:25 am

partymidget wrote:Does anyone have any idea how mobile regional law school degrees are after one completes their service commitment? I mean are people as limited to their law school regions after JAG as they are coming straight out of school?

I attend one of those national/regional law schools (right around the cutoff, but most students get jobs where they're from/have established connections). I posed this question to a biglaw partner during an alumni gathering because I encountered a lot of difficulty when interviewing with firms outside of where I had demonstrable ties. The partner told me that JAG would greatly resolve any qualms the firm would have about hiring a JAG considering that the person had just shown that he's willing to go anywhere. So in that sense, your degree will probably be more mobile.

Still, if you attended a no-name type of school and few alums practice outside its region, then it might not matter as much since it's only JAG carrying you rather than JAG plus and identifiable name. JAG probably still helps more since that's practical experience vs. doing well in ug and on the lsat (and law school).

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partymidget
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Re: Military Law

Postby partymidget » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:01 pm

BHL wrote:
partymidget wrote:Does anyone have any idea how mobile regional law school degrees are after one completes their service commitment? I mean are people as limited to their law school regions after JAG as they are coming straight out of school?

I attend one of those national/regional law schools (right around the cutoff, but most students get jobs where they're from/have established connections). I posed this question to a biglaw partner during an alumni gathering because I encountered a lot of difficulty when interviewing with firms outside of where I had demonstrable ties. The partner told me that JAG would greatly resolve any qualms the firm would have about hiring a JAG considering that the person had just shown that he's willing to go anywhere. So in that sense, your degree will probably be more mobile.

Still, if you attended a no-name type of school and few alums practice outside its region, then it might not matter as much since it's only JAG carrying you rather than JAG plus and identifiable name. JAG probably still helps more since that's practical experience vs. doing well in ug and on the lsat (and law school).


thanks for the response. As PB said my question was a little broad. I guess I forgot to mention I am interested in government law, as I currently work for the federal government and wouldn't mind going back there as a lawyer. But it also applies to all jobs, as I am thinking of USD for school but not sure if I like the idea of being tied to San Diego, cuz I am an east coast guy.




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