Military Law

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu May 01, 2008 12:06 pm

conch republic wrote:Thanks for all the info, Patrick.

What's the typical age of people doing JAG? Are they typically 25 year olds that didn't take off between UG & LS, or are there some "non-traditional" grads in there as well?


Given the people who have gone JAG from my law school and then the JAGs I worked with this past summer, I would say most that are Direct Appointments are graduating from law school in the 25-29 age bracket. My office had a bunch who were active duty in a different AFSC prior to law school (they went on the FELP/ELP programs) so it seemed a bit older. Of the three new 1Lts who arrived in July from COT, one was straight out of college into law school, one had worked as a CPA for 1-2 years, the other had gotten her LLM and then gone Direct Appointment.

Other than the age cut off mentioned previously, it did not seem like age was ever an issue in my interview process.

MNlawdog
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Re: Military Law

Postby MNlawdog » Thu May 22, 2008 7:19 pm

Patrick,
Have you heard yet what base you're going to? I wasn't sure if you're graduating right now or next year. I have one year left before I'm off to the Navy, as far as I can tell I will find out about August where I'm headed. Good luck wherever you go.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat May 31, 2008 1:46 pm

MNlawdog wrote:Patrick,
Have you heard yet what base you're going to? I wasn't sure if you're graduating right now or next year. I have one year left before I'm off to the Navy, as far as I can tell I will find out about August where I'm headed. Good luck wherever you go.


I just graduated but I do not hear about my station options until (if?) I pass the bar. It seems like we get to pick from at least 2 bases.

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M20009
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Re: Military Law

Postby M20009 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:20 am

What was the timeline like from decision through the application process and then acceptance?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:27 pm

M20009 wrote:What was the timeline like from decision through the application process and then acceptance?


My acceptance to the DAP program was surprisingly expedient in light of the snail's pace of most Air Force programs.

I spent my downtime at work completing my application so I cannot give you a ballpark as to how many man hours I put into it. It is a lot of work though, esp with crazy requirements like a full length (head to foot) 8x11 color photograph of you in a suit, a handwritten statement concerning drug use (if applicable), etc.

I interviewed with the SJA at my base in the final week of July and was accepted less than a month later. Part of this is that I timed my application to be in before the August DAP board met. Had I interviewed in May I still would have only heard in late August. I used to know the dates of all the DAP boards but BarBri has pushed them out of my brain. I feel there are 3 or 4 annually. I'm sure JAX can help you out with this.
After being accepted you have to attend MEPS (military physical) which can be like pulling teeth, esp if you have any conditions they flag. You really need to be aggressive in terms of making sure your file is being reviewed by MEPS and that you can come in on your appointment date. MEPS is a cattle call with tons of 18 year old enlisted and is not terribly pleasant. Things got much much better once they learned I was a Direct Appointment and I was fast tracked through all the procedures with 3 other officer candidates. That was my first taste of the distinctions between officers and enlisted.

In terms of the rest of the time line, it takes simply forever. I'm done with the bar on July 30th but in that I do not get my results until early Oct (Illinois), I cannot attend the Oct 15 Commissioned Officer's Training (you have to passed and sworn in before you can attend COT). Therefore I am sitting from August to January for Jan 15th COT. That kind of sucks, esp in that I will be living with my folks and having to work in something to pay off my loans. That said, I'm sure in 10 years those 6 months will seem less significant.

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thespinstartshere
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Re: Military Law

Postby thespinstartshere » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:46 pm

Patrick,
Thanks for the great info in this thread. I plan to apply for Navy or USMC JAG, but I am undecided as to whether I want to begin the process while in school (I am an incoming 1L) or wait until I graduate and go for a direct commission or OCC. The thought of passing up a high paying summer firm job is not overly appealing to me. As an aside, I have a friend in AF JAG who just recently deployed to Iraq. Other than the heat and the stacks of paperwork, he seems to be enjoying himself. Best of luck to you.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:41 pm

thespinstartshere wrote:Patrick,
Thanks for the great info in this thread. I plan to apply for Navy or USMC JAG, but I am undecided as to whether I want to begin the process while in school (I am an incoming 1L) or wait until I graduate and go for a direct commission or OCC. The thought of passing up a high paying summer firm job is not overly appealing to me. As an aside, I have a friend in AF JAG who just recently deployed to Iraq. Other than the heat and the stacks of paperwork, he seems to be enjoying himself. Best of luck to you.


Thanks for the well wishes and some evidence that deploying won't be the worst thing in the world.

The GLP/OYCP or whatever the USN/USMC call them is a mixed bag, as you noted. At least with the Navy, if you join up as a 1L with the GLP you are guaranteed two summer gigs at their legal bases (fantastic if you can get to San Diego) which takes a lot of pressure off of you in terms of the whole OCI process. Having going through it, I cannot overstate what a total pain in the ass it can be, esp as a 2L when you may have journal responsibilities as well as moot court. Going through all the ROTC related stuff will also make your Officer's School a breeze (this of course applies only to the Navy. I don't think anything makes Marine OCS a breeze).
While you might be missing out on the $3,000 a week, there may be less and less of that work available depending on the state of the economy. With how the law firms look right now, I think I may have made an inadvertently wise decision in terms of the job security the military offers.

Put as much research into the various perks and drawbacks of USMC v. USN as you can. There are some very significant differences in terms of what your 4 years will be like in terms of billet, quality of life, nature of your legal work, etc. Also keep in mind that you will go through the full blown officer's training as a Marine, which is no joke and a massive time commitment. 10-11 weeks of OCS and then 26 weeks at The Basic School. While you are paid this whole time (probably only at the E-5 level at OCS if they are anything like the AF), you are not using any of that legal education or law license. Then you will also have to attend the Naval Justice School. That is a hell of a lot of extra schooling after 3 years of LS and then 2 months of bar prep.

Not trying to knock USMC JAG, just some food for thought.

Best of luck to you.

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M20009
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Re: Military Law

Postby M20009 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:08 am

What would the process be if you aren't even in the military?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:53 pm

M20009 wrote:What would the process be if you aren't even in the military?


Unless I've indicated otherwise, all my advice applies for the civilian getting a Direct Commission.

Air Force: Apply for the DAP program as a 3L. Spend 5-6 weeks in Commissioned Officer's Training in Oct or January, after you are sworn in to your state bar. After COT, JASOC (JAG School) for 10 weeks

Army: Apply for DA program as a 3L. They have a more intense Officer's Training in which you first complete BOLC III, and then BOLC I and II. Then JAG School.

Navy: The Direct Appointment route does not really work here. GLP or OYCP, and then their 5-6 weeks of officer's training. This is a more limited training like the AF. Then JAG school.

Marines: See my previous post. OCS, Basic School, Naval JAG School, etc.

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Re: Military Law

Postby matt » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:04 pm

What are you planning on doing after your four required years are up? Do you have any idea how easy it would be to find employment outside of the military after serving?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:00 pm

matt wrote:What are you planning on doing after your four required years are up? Do you have any idea how easy it would be to find employment outside of the military after serving?


My perhaps too ambitious plan is to land a base like Lackland where I can get a ton of trial experience and then end up at the US Attorney's Office (NDIL being my dream location).

I feel any government related (GS paying) work would be an easy transition. Ability to end up in BigLaw I think is difficult in that you are not working on the corporate matters that most associates have been. I think an exception could be White Collar Crime practice groups in the bigger firms light of the extensive trial experience you can get.

Each base is pretty unique in terms of the legal matters it ends up focusing upon (more by default in terms of the mission of the base) so I feel some bases might be better than others depending on your ultimate interests. That is something I am just now realizing, and should absolutely be considered if you end up Army or Air Force.
Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:49 pm

Interesting, though not totally relevant for the law student going JAG.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/ ... g_070308w/

Summary is that the TJAG (The Judge Advocate General) of USN/USA/USAF are all being elevated from a the previously mandated restriction of 2 Star Flag Officer (Major General/Rear Admiral) to 3 star (Lieutenant General/Vice Admiral).

Good for the JAG branches in terms of overall prestige and representation of our interests at the high command level.



Carry on,
PB

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:00 pm

I too have had my eye on Chicago BigLaw and a nice comfortable salary. Making $250k here in chi-town after 5 years isn't a bad deal at all.

But I see myself in a similar position to you. If I do 4 years of JAG and separate, I'm still only 29, and I don't think getting into BigLaw would be that much trouble after I got out.(I start at UVA next month.)

What rank do you come in as in the AF? And does pretty much every officer get the 6 mo. promotion?

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Re: Military Law

Postby sherman » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:16 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:3L headed active duty with AF JAG once I am hopefully done with the bar this Fall.

Happy to answer Qs or just talk about how lame the AF service dress is.


wtf

i am not into any uniform of any sort, but the air force has by far the classiest uniforms

when my dad served in the us army in wwII, he said the air force, then called the army air force/corps, was the "glamour service" and everybody liked the way the air force officers wore crumpled up hats tilted to one side

the movie "pearl harbor" plays up the air force pilot glamor stereotype with ben affleck and josh barnett?

navy...sometimes you look like a waiter, and what's with all that gold?
army...salad suit, and also, what's with all that gold?
marines...trying too hard to look hard in those olive green uniforms and black buttons/insignia

;)

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:18 pm

J-Rod wrote:I too have had my eye on Chicago BigLaw and a nice comfortable salary. Making $250k here in chi-town after 5 years isn't a bad deal at all.

But I see myself in a similar position to you. If I do 4 years of JAG and separate, I'm still only 29, and I don't think getting into BigLaw would be that much trouble after I got out.(I start at UVA next month.)

What rank do you come in as in the AF? And does pretty much every officer get the 6 mo. promotion?


Almost all Direct Appointments start as an O-2, 1st Lieutenant. If you have something like 4-6 years of professional (lawyering) experience before commissioning you come in as an 0-3, but that is not common.

Your promotion from 0-2 to 0-3 (Captain) is guaranteed 6 months from Day 1 of Commissioned Officer's Training. 100%.

After 6-7 years in service, you are eligible for Major (0-4), with 95% of Captains making the cut.

13 years, you are eligible for Lieutenant Colonel, with 85% of the Majors making the cut.

At 18 years, you can pin on full Colonel, with only 60% of the applying Lt. Colonels making it.


Being younger definitely makes this easier. As I've said in previous posts, the law firms are not going anywhere, and you have the rest of your professional life to play that game. This is pretty much the only shot to serve as a JAG and I think it is a valuable, even cool, way to spend a the beginning of one's career.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:25 pm

sherman wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:3L headed active duty with AF JAG once I am hopefully done with the bar this Fall.

Happy to answer Qs or just talk about how lame the AF service dress is.


wtf

i am not into any uniform of any sort, but the air force has by far the classiest uniforms

when my dad served in the us army in wwII, he said the air force, then called the army air force/corps, was the "glamour service" and everybody liked the way the air force officers wore crumpled up hats tilted to one side

the movie "pearl harbor" plays up the air force pilot glamor stereotype with ben affleck and josh barnett?

navy...sometimes you look like a waiter, and what's with all that gold?
army...salad suit, and also, what's with all that gold?
marines...trying too hard to look hard in those olive green uniforms and black buttons/insignia

;)


We look like a bunch of bus drivers. I hate our service dress. I would gladly replace our service dress with the Class As of the USN/USAF/USMC if I could.
The USN's new class As, the "cracker jack" style from WWII, look simply awesome. I am seriously envious.

When the AF was still the Army Air Corps, they wore the Army uniform, which is why they looked good. After 1947 the Air Force became separate and in an effort to distance themselves from the Army as much as possible, adopted the British colors and style. Look up the General McPeak (former AF Chief of Staff) uniforms. We looked like commercial airline pilots for those years.

That said, the new Airman Battle Uniform looks great, even if it is functionally terrible in any combat environment.

In regard to Pearl Harbor, I'll refer you to Team America: World Police.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_pM8PrqY5Rg

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sherman
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Re: Military Law

Postby sherman » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:37 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
sherman wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:3L headed active duty with AF JAG once I am hopefully done with the bar this Fall.

Happy to answer Qs or just talk about how lame the AF service dress is.


wtf

i am not into any uniform of any sort, but the air force has by far the classiest uniforms

when my dad served in the us army in wwII, he said the air force, then called the army air force/corps, was the "glamour service" and everybody liked the way the air force officers wore crumpled up hats tilted to one side

the movie "pearl harbor" plays up the air force pilot glamor stereotype with ben affleck and josh barnett?

navy...sometimes you look like a waiter, and what's with all that gold?
army...salad suit, and also, what's with all that gold?
marines...trying too hard to look hard in those olive green uniforms and black buttons/insignia

;)


We look like a bunch of bus drivers. I hate our service dress. I would gladly replace our service dress with the Class As of the USN/USAF/USMC if I could.
The USN's new class As, the "cracker jack" style from WWII, look simply awesome. I am seriously envious.

When the AF was still the Army Air Corps, they wore the Army uniform, which is why they looked good. After 1947 the Air Force became separate and in an effort to distance themselves from the Army as much as possible, adopted the British colors and style. Look up the General McPeak (former AF Chief of Staff) uniforms. We looked like commercial airline pilots for those years.

That said, the new Airman Battle Uniform looks great, even if it is functionally terrible in any combat environment.

In regard to Pearl Harbor, I'll refer you to Team America: World Police.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_pM8PrqY5Rg


bus driver, omg, laughing my ass off :)

so between two services in green salad suits, one in waiter suits, and one that look like bus drivers, we are in need of a fashion makeover

if you ever stay long enough in the af, come to naval postgraduate school or dli-flc....you will rarely have to wear your uniform and both places are in northern california with its great weather

former af head john jumper went to my UG/MBA school in sf as a lot of af brass on the west coast did, but usually they wore civilian clothes

i think troy state university, and norwich university, as a civilian university contract, have gotten the cushy job of training a lot of af officers and senior enlisted into getting their master's degrees and bachelor's degrees, respectively

and yes, plenty an officer like my col. b-1 trainer friend, went to university of phoenix and the internet has allowed many military personnel to get degrees and advanced degrees

that video is precious

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:44 pm

I have another question.

If I were to do a summer internship with a specific branch, I can assume it would be very bad form to then go into JAG with a different branch?

The reason I ask is because the Army and Navy offer internship opportunities to 1L's, the Air Force does not.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:06 pm

J-Rod wrote:I have another question.

If I were to do a summer internship with a specific branch, I can assume it would be very bad form to then go into JAG with a different branch?

The reason I ask is because the Army and Navy offer internship opportunities to 1L's, the Air Force does not.


I don't actually think it would be a faux pas at all to intern with the USA/USN as a 1L. While there are the service rivalries, we are all in this together, and it's not like you would ever lose points because you spent a summer with another service branch (esp when it is not possible to work for the AF). If nothing else I see it helping you get selected as an AF intern for your 2L summer (which is the best way increasing your odds for a direct appointment selection) and may provide you with valuable insight about another branch of the military (useful at the macro level of understanding how different branches approach problems and at the micro level as you will have an interesting answer for the question "Why AF" when you can juxtapose a summer with USN/USA versus USAF).

A good friend of mine who graduated a year before and is now an AF JAG in Colorado Springs actually spent his 2L summer with Army JAG but was still selected by his first application board for Direct Appointment by the AF.

There were a number of JAGs and civilians in my office that started their service in the Army or USMC before they "crossed into the blue" with the AF.

Even if you don't go JAG for 1L summer I think any Federal service looks solid on your application. For what it is worth, my 1L summer was split as an extern on the IL Appellate Court and then at a small to mid-sized Chicago litigation firm.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:37 pm

Ok, that's cool then.

I am just now trying to figure out which branch I'd consider working for. Army seems like it's probably the easiest to get into as a 1L. They take 75 2L's and 25 1L's.

I worked a summer during UG with a huge powerhouse firm in Chicago, so I got a taste of what the corporate world was like. I've considered JAG before, but never this heavily. I like the idea of serving my country, traveling, getting good experience, and being saluted! haha


You don't happen to know where I can find some statistics as to how many applications are received each year do you?

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thespinstartshere
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Re: Military Law

Postby thespinstartshere » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:57 pm

The aspect of JAG that I find most appealing (besides the obligatory notions of honor and duty) is the chance for immediate courtroom experience.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:42 pm

sherman wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
sherman wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:3L headed active duty with AF JAG once I am hopefully done with the bar this Fall.

Happy to answer Qs or just talk about how lame the AF service dress is.


wtf

i am not into any uniform of any sort, but the air force has by far the classiest uniforms

when my dad served in the us army in wwII, he said the air force, then called the army air force/corps, was the "glamour service" and everybody liked the way the air force officers wore crumpled up hats tilted to one side

the movie "pearl harbor" plays up the air force pilot glamor stereotype with ben affleck and josh barnett?

navy...sometimes you look like a waiter, and what's with all that gold?
army...salad suit, and also, what's with all that gold?
marines...trying too hard to look hard in those olive green uniforms and black buttons/insignia

;)


We look like a bunch of bus drivers. I hate our service dress. I would gladly replace our service dress with the Class As of the USN/USAF/USMC if I could.
The USN's new class As, the "cracker jack" style from WWII, look simply awesome. I am seriously envious.

When the AF was still the Army Air Corps, they wore the Army uniform, which is why they looked good. After 1947 the Air Force became separate and in an effort to distance themselves from the Army as much as possible, adopted the British colors and style. Look up the General McPeak (former AF Chief of Staff) uniforms. We looked like commercial airline pilots for those years.

That said, the new Airman Battle Uniform looks great, even if it is functionally terrible in any combat environment.

In regard to Pearl Harbor, I'll refer you to Team America: World Police.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_pM8PrqY5Rg


bus driver, omg, laughing my ass off :)

so between two services in green salad suits, one in waiter suits, and one that look like bus drivers, we are in need of a fashion makeover

if you ever stay long enough in the af, come to naval postgraduate school or dli-flc....you will rarely have to wear your uniform and both places are in northern california with its great weather

former af head john jumper went to my UG/MBA school in sf as a lot of af brass on the west coast did, but usually they wore civilian clothes

i think troy state university, and norwich university, as a civilian university contract, have gotten the cushy job of training a lot of af officers and senior enlisted into getting their master's degrees and bachelor's degrees, respectively

and yes, plenty an officer like my col. b-1 trainer friend, went to university of phoenix and the internet has allowed many military personnel to get degrees and advanced degrees

that video is precious


You came to mind when I saw the new Army Service Uniform that is replacing the green Class As and Class Bs.

http://www.militarytimes.com/projects/a ... ssa_flash/

I think this is a disaster decision for the Army. It looks like a combination of a JROTC and Mall Security Guard uniform.

At least the Air Force will no longer be the low man on the totem pole in terms of service dress.

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J-Rod
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Re: Military Law

Postby J-Rod » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:17 pm

How big of a deal is the drug use thing? I have tried pot before . . . is that going to hinder me a lot when applying for JAG? I'm in no way a chronic user, and have no dependency on any drugs or alcohol.

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ihatelaw
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Re: Military Law

Postby ihatelaw » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:29 pm

how would they know if you smoked pot?

matt
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Re: Military Law

Postby matt » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:38 pm

they have these crazy things now called drug tests.




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