Military Law

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:38 pm

Journeybound wrote:Hi. I'm beginning a paid AF JAG internship for my 2L summer next month, at Travis. I'm extremely excited about the opportunity. I stumbled into this thread, and I was hoping that you guys might help me out with some questions.

First, how competitive will it be for me to get an offer post-graduation with this internship? Does this give me a slight advantage? It looks like the acceptance rates are EXTREMELY low and competitive for commissions. I did 2 years of AFROTC in college, but I dropped out due to family emergency/marriage/desire to go to law school. I'm now at a T10, I love trial advocacy, and I'm interested in commissioning.

Also, what type of work is given to interns with the AF? Will I get any trial experience? Or will I be writing mostly memos....?

And lastly, what is the dress code like? Someone above said that in DC they had to wear a suit, is this standard at most basis for AF? I have a feeling that it will be strange not wearing a uniform when everyone else has one on.

Thanks! I look forward to hanging out in this thread with you all.


Congrats on the internship.

Being an intern puts you in the best possible position to get picked up for Direct Appointment. You'll have ten weeks to impress the JAGs and office leadership that you have the ability to cut it as an officer. Most applicants have a mere hour in the SJA interview to do this. Acceptance rates are still a total shit show and I would get yourself in the mind to be ready for a fight if this is something you really want. A good summer will set you up nicely, though there are still a number of other variables in play.

While we are in an appalling amount of pages for this thread, early on I think I had a few posts talking about how each JAG experience is unique based on the base he/she is stationed. While JAG work is technically universal, legal assistance is a pain to do everywhere, courts-martial are the same everywhere, the base legal office always takes on the flavor of the Wing they support. There will always be an emphasis on a particular thing reflecting the character of the mission which you support. A wing under Air Combat Command or Air Mobility Command is very different than a base under Material or Space Command. I interned at a Material Command base and did a huge amount of civil law projects simply because that is what the bulk of the work for everyone was. My interns at my present Air Combat Command base get a ton of military justice opportunities because we have plenty to go around. So, you'll have to wait and see - generally you'll be doing what the O-3 JAGs are doing.

Your dress code will turn mostly on the SJA and if you are at a base (versus a HQ Directorate or other specialized branch in DC). I recommend suit for your first day until you can figure out the lay of the land. I have had interns rock suits everyday and others come in polos. I personally am of the school that good clothes open all doors. The military is obsessed with personal appearance and if you come well (and conservatively) dressed, that will likely reflect well on you. You will probably have a handful of civilians in your office and no question there will be civilians (DOD and contractors) working on your base. While most people will be in uniform, it is not like you will be a sore thumb in civvies.

Journeybound
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Re: Military Law

Postby Journeybound » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:55 pm

Thanks! I'm extremely excited to get started this summer.

upnorthguy
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Re: Military Law

Postby upnorthguy » Tue May 03, 2011 9:46 pm

jess8328 wrote:Update from JARO on the reserve board: "RESULTS FROM THE APRIL 2011 RESERVE COMPONENT SELECTION BOARD WILL BE POSTED NO LATER THAN THE SECOND WEEK OF JUNE."

Nice. I thought it was going to be mid-July.


That is definitely earlier than I expected. Very nice.

I received my "needs correction" e-mail. It indicated that I did not include the age waiver. I submitted it over the weekend so I should be good to go.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Wed May 04, 2011 9:14 am

I thought there were normally 50 AF summer interns, but there seems to only be 25 this year? Are both of those numbers correct?

Journeybound
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Re: Military Law

Postby Journeybound » Wed May 04, 2011 9:27 pm

Yes, there are only 25 this year. Are you doing the internship?

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Thu May 05, 2011 7:45 am

Yes. Very much looking forward to it.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Thu May 05, 2011 12:27 pm

Anyone know if any of the branches use WordPerfect? Didn't really think about that until I talked to a friend with a federal job who is using WP but soon moving to Word.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Thu May 05, 2011 1:19 pm

howell wrote:Anyone know if any of the branches use WordPerfect? Didn't really think about that until I talked to a friend with a federal job who is using WP but soon moving to Word.


DoD rocks MS Office.

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Fri May 06, 2011 11:23 am

upnorthguy wrote:
jess8328 wrote:Update from JARO on the reserve board: "RESULTS FROM THE APRIL 2011 RESERVE COMPONENT SELECTION BOARD WILL BE POSTED NO LATER THAN THE SECOND WEEK OF JUNE."

Nice. I thought it was going to be mid-July.


That is definitely earlier than I expected. Very nice.

I received my "needs correction" e-mail. It indicated that I did not include the age waiver. I submitted it over the weekend so I should be good to go.


Aw, now they're saying that only applies to National Guard applications. Now saying: "RESULTS FROM THE APRIL 2011 RESERVE COMPONENT SELECTION BOARD WILL BE POSTED NO LATER THAN THE SECOND WEEK OF JUNE FOR NATIONAL GUARD APPLICANTS ONLY. PLEASE CONTINUE TO VISIT OUR WEBSITE FOR UPDATED INFORMATION REGARDING THE POSTING OF RESULTS FOR US ARMY RESERVE APPLICANTS."

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samaside
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Re: Military Law

Postby samaside » Fri May 06, 2011 11:34 am

Patrick Bateman wrote:
howell wrote:Anyone know if any of the branches use WordPerfect? Didn't really think about that until I talked to a friend with a federal job who is using WP but soon moving to Word.


DoD rocks MS Office.


Truth. And Vista. So if you made the switch from XP to Windows 7 you might want to brush up on your XP skills. Also, who the hell is using WordPerfect? I am a DoD civilian tech lab employee and I've never heard of anyone using WordPerfect, lol.

That said, more on topic... I'm sure this has been discussed earlier but at 89 pages I'm not even sure how far to go back. I grew up military and I've been a military brat my entire life - and still am as my dad is still active duty. Plus I come from a long line of USCG officers. So I'm pretty much jumping right into the competition. Service is in my blood.

What I'm wondering if it's worth battling it out for an appointment once you have the degree or is it worth trying to do ROTC while in law school? I'd ask the recruiters around here but this recruiting office up where I live - and I live on an army base - is pretty awful and very unhelpful.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Fri May 06, 2011 2:54 pm

samaside wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
howell wrote:Anyone know if any of the branches use WordPerfect? Didn't really think about that until I talked to a friend with a federal job who is using WP but soon moving to Word.


DoD rocks MS Office.


Truth. And Vista. So if you made the switch from XP to Windows 7 you might want to brush up on your XP skills. Also, who the hell is using WordPerfect? I am a DoD civilian tech lab employee and I've never heard of anyone using WordPerfect, lol.

That said, more on topic... I'm sure this has been discussed earlier but at 89 pages I'm not even sure how far to go back. I grew up military and I've been a military brat my entire life - and still am as my dad is still active duty. Plus I come from a long line of USCG officers. So I'm pretty much jumping right into the competition. Service is in my blood.

What I'm wondering if it's worth battling it out for an appointment once you have the degree or is it worth trying to do ROTC while in law school? I'd ask the recruiters around here but this recruiting office up where I live - and I live on an army base - is pretty awful and very unhelpful.


If you are thinking Air Force, the GLP/OYCP programs are absolutely worth pursuing. The competition is fierce; selection numbers for this year were single digit due to SECDEF's personnel cuts.

Again, strictly for Air Force, but do not pursue traditional recruiting channels. Officer recruiting within the JAG Corps is handled exclusively by JAG HQ - AFPC does not touch us. JAX is the only organization you should be dealing with.

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howell
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Re: Military Law

Postby howell » Fri May 06, 2011 4:40 pm

samaside wrote: Also, who the hell is using WordPerfect? I am a DoD civilian tech lab employee and I've never heard of anyone using WordPerfect, lol.


The USAO here uses WordPerfect, but they are switching to Word. I couldn't remember anyone in the military mentioning what they use.

babyt8_99
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Re: Military Law

Postby babyt8_99 » Fri May 06, 2011 11:44 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
samaside wrote:
Patrick Bateman wrote:
howell wrote:Anyone know if any of the branches use WordPerfect? Didn't really think about that until I talked to a friend with a federal job who is using WP but soon moving to Word.


DoD rocks MS Office.


Truth. And Vista. So if you made the switch from XP to Windows 7 you might want to brush up on your XP skills. Also, who the hell is using WordPerfect? I am a DoD civilian tech lab employee and I've never heard of anyone using WordPerfect, lol.

That said, more on topic... I'm sure this has been discussed earlier but at 89 pages I'm not even sure how far to go back. I grew up military and I've been a military brat my entire life - and still am as my dad is still active duty. Plus I come from a long line of USCG officers. So I'm pretty much jumping right into the competition. Service is in my blood.

What I'm wondering if it's worth battling it out for an appointment once you have the degree or is it worth trying to do ROTC while in law school? I'd ask the recruiters around here but this recruiting office up where I live - and I live on an army base - is pretty awful and very unhelpful.


If you are thinking Air Force, the GLP/OYCP programs are absolutely worth pursuing. The competition is fierce; selection numbers for this year were single digit due to SECDEF's personnel cuts.

Again, strictly for Air Force, but do not pursue traditional recruiting channels. Officer recruiting within the JAG Corps is handled exclusively by JAG HQ - AFPC does not touch us. JAX is the only organization you should be dealing with.



The same is true for the Army. Do not go through traditional recruiting channels.

mrh769
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Re: Military Law

Postby mrh769 » Mon May 09, 2011 12:44 pm

Generally how long before the deadline does the ARMY make their application available?

jess8328
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Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Mon May 09, 2011 3:16 pm

mrh769 wrote:Generally how long before the deadline does the ARMY make their application available?



If I remember correctly, I think the application for the November 1, 2010 deadline was up on August 1, 2010.

mrh769
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Re: Military Law

Postby mrh769 » Mon May 09, 2011 6:52 pm

jess8328 wrote:
mrh769 wrote:Generally how long before the deadline does the ARMY make their application available?



If I remember correctly, I think the application for the November 1, 2010 deadline was up on August 1, 2010.
jess8328 wrote:
mrh769 wrote:Generally how long before the deadline does the ARMY make their application available?



If I remember correctly, I think the application for the November 1, 2010 deadline was up on August 1, 2010.


Thanks!


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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Wed May 18, 2011 11:24 am


Great link! Thanks for posting.

His most recent question probably was: is it legal to fly into another country's airspace to raid the compound of the #1 enemy of the state?

One word of caveat to potential Navy JAGs out there: this guy's experience is a bit like a diet commercial-- "results not typical". It does show what sorts of things are possible in Navy JAG but not everyone gets these types of assignments.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Military Law

Postby joemoviebuff » Wed May 18, 2011 11:44 am

Rotor wrote:

Great link! Thanks for posting.

His most recent question probably was: is it legal to fly into another country's airspace to raid the compound of the #1 enemy of the state?

One word of caveat to potential Navy JAGs out there: this guy's experience is a bit like a diet commercial-- "results not typical". It does show what sorts of things are possible in Navy JAG but not everyone gets these types of assignments.


I can still dream :wink:

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Wed May 18, 2011 2:12 pm

joemoviebuff wrote:
Rotor wrote:

Great link! Thanks for posting.

His most recent question probably was: is it legal to fly into another country's airspace to raid the compound of the #1 enemy of the state?

One word of caveat to potential Navy JAGs out there: this guy's experience is a bit like a diet commercial-- "results not typical". It does show what sorts of things are possible in Navy JAG but not everyone gets these types of assignments.


I can still dream :wink:

Don't just dream...set your goals! It's doable obviously because this guy did it.

The Navy is a blast. (Wouldn't have stayed 20 if it weren't). But you don't have to jump out of planes or work for NSC to find that joy.

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taxnstuff
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Re: Military Law

Postby taxnstuff » Thu May 19, 2011 10:24 am

I don't think I could sift through 80 pages to find a possible answer, so I'll just post my question briefly -

Are there opportunities for a CPA/Attorney in the Navy JAG? Im still exploring different career paths besides a tax attorney and was curious if this was possible and/or what kind of work it would entail. Again, I know knothing about the field and this is just a query.

Thanks in advance.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Thu May 19, 2011 7:38 pm

taxnstuff wrote:I don't think I could sift through 80 pages to find a possible answer, so I'll just post my question briefly -

Are there opportunities for a CPA/Attorney in the Navy JAG? Im still exploring different career paths besides a tax attorney and was curious if this was possible and/or what kind of work it would entail. Again, I know knothing about the field and this is just a query.

Thanks in advance.

No specific tax/CPA jobs. You MIGHT run the income tax assistance center during your first tour if you are at a NLSO. That would be a one-time thing as a collateral duty, so I wouldn't come into the Navy hoping to do that.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Sat May 21, 2011 5:38 pm

taxnstuff wrote:I don't think I could sift through 80 pages to find a possible answer, so I'll just post my question briefly -

Are there opportunities for a CPA/Attorney in the Navy JAG? Im still exploring different career paths besides a tax attorney and was curious if this was possible and/or what kind of work it would entail. Again, I know knothing about the field and this is just a query.

Thanks in advance.


I concur with Brownshoe. My experiences with Navy JAG have indicated that the majority of the civil law billets (e.g., environmental, labor, etc) have been farmed out to civilians. When on a shore tour, it appears the bulk of JO Navy JAGs are involved with criminal or legal assistance. When on ship tours, ops law comes into the mix as well.

Even for the Air Force, there are not any CPA/tax positions in the strict sense beyond legal assistance tax offices. We have a considerable amount of fiscal law, acquisitions, procurement, and government contracting JAG positions but those are as close as you are going to get.

duckmoney
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Re: Military Law

Postby duckmoney » Mon May 23, 2011 10:49 am

Sorry if this has been asked before, but as a JAG, how much of your career can you expect to spend stateside or in non-combat zones where your wife could be with you? On the other hand, how frequent are deployments to combat zones?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon May 23, 2011 11:33 am

duckmoney wrote:Sorry if this has been asked before, but as a JAG, how much of your career can you expect to spend stateside or in non-combat zones where your wife could be with you? On the other hand, how frequent are deployments to combat zones?


This varies greatly depending on the branch and specific unit/assignment. My Air Force experience: I was deployed for seven months in my first assignment and will deploy again out of my second assignment, probably within the next 12 months. A lot for me is just luck - there were some last minute changes in my office prior to the deployment orders dropping that put me at the top of the list. My second assignment is to a specialized unit with a very high deployment/operations tempo, where deploying is guaranteed. I also know plenty of Captains on their third assignment that never got tasked while at base legal and likely will get through their fifth/sixth year without going overseas. A lot truly is luck of the draw.

"Combat zones" is a bit of a misnomer. Technically speaking, that is anywhere you will draw hostile fire pay, but generally JAGs are Fobbits that are going to be behind the wire at large air bases like Bagram and Kandahar. Is there a risk of indirect fire or IEDs? Absolutely, but we are not going out on patrol or manning a COP.
That said, there are also JAGs that find themselves in legitimate action - one of my JAG School classmates is the first AF JAG to be awarded the Army Combat Action Badge for his part in a firefight in the 'Stan. That is the exception to the rule but is absolutely within the realm of possibility.

If I had to come up with a general rule, I would say there is a very good chance of you deploying for a 179 day deployment once within your first four years. Again, this is just based on my time in the Air Force.

To be totally candid, back when I was still in law school, the prospect of deploying scared the crap out of me. It is too abstract to conceptualize without some experience in uniform. Trust me though, if you get the chance to go, it is an amazing opportunity and something you will not regret. You will never find a more dynamic or interesting way to practice law and serve your country.




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