Military Law

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RocksnSurf
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:10 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby RocksnSurf » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:13 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
RocksnSurf wrote:I was accepted for the Army 2L Summer Internship - Stoked! Has anyone else on this board done the internship (or been accepted for this summer)?

Does anyone know how long it takes the JARO office to send out the final assignment list for the summer interns? I returned the required forms, etc - but haven't really gotten any communication from JARO since early February. Is this normal? Has anyone else gotten their assignments and been told to call in for conferences?


I never did but I worked for the Army JAG office in Wiesbaden, Germany and we had a couple of interns. I have no idea what they were there for (well other than to travel around europe). They really did nothing all day, they'd sit in on meetings and stuff but they spent more time on the computer or the phone more than anything and they were always out at 5. If you're internship is anything like there it'll be cake.


Were the interns just lazy or was this because there wasn't anything for them to do? I think it would be awesome to be placed at a base in Europe but wouldn't want to just sit around on the phone and facebook all summer. Were the interns well liked around the office? I'm interested in Army JAG as a career, not just as a paid summer / vacation.

duckmoney
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:21 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby duckmoney » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:20 am

I have a question for you guys. I've browsed through quite a bit of this thread but didn't really find an answer for it.
FYI, I'm a 0L considering joining JAG, either USAF or Navy.

My question is - for those who choose to do so, what fraction of JAGs are able to make a career out of the military (e.g. get to 20 years and hit retirement)? What about beyond that, doing 30 years and getting the maximum retirement?

I like the idea of the JAG corps, but I feel like a 4 year stint probably wouldn't be worth the opportunity cost when your alternative goal is biglaw. Making a career out of it though, given the hours, vacation time, and excellent retirement, sounds very appealing. I'm just curious as to what to realistically expect in terms of job security if I want to stay in it for the long run.

Thanks!

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unc0mm0n1
Posts: 1714
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:48 am

RocksnSurf wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:
RocksnSurf wrote:I was accepted for the Army 2L Summer Internship - Stoked! Has anyone else on this board done the internship (or been accepted for this summer)?

Does anyone know how long it takes the JARO office to send out the final assignment list for the summer interns? I returned the required forms, etc - but haven't really gotten any communication from JARO since early February. Is this normal? Has anyone else gotten their assignments and been told to call in for conferences?


I never did but I worked for the Army JAG office in Wiesbaden, Germany and we had a couple of interns. I have no idea what they were there for (well other than to travel around europe). They really did nothing all day, they'd sit in on meetings and stuff but they spent more time on the computer or the phone more than anything and they were always out at 5. If you're internship is anything like there it'll be cake.


Were the interns just lazy or was this because there wasn't anything for them to do? I think it would be awesome to be placed at a base in Europe but wouldn't want to just sit around on the phone and facebook all summer. Were the interns well liked around the office? I'm interested in Army JAG as a career, not just as a paid summer / vacation.


Well I think a little bit of both. There are five main specialities in JAG as I'm sure you know. Crim law (MJ), Legal assistance (CS), TDS, Op law, and and Ad law. The bread and butter is MJ though. The truth is they have get a little for all the specialities but if you don't know about the UCMJ you're goign to have a hard time figuring out what to do. I don't think they teach the UCMJ in law school (I could be wrong). Basically when you go through each discipline so quickly you can't really get a feel for anything,the only one where you can get some work done is in AD law which is basically just issue spotting. Now of course you can put in some extra effort find one particular issue and research the heck out of it. Recheck the work of the other attorney's. They didn't really have any interest in doing that stuff so that's why I say it was a little bit laziness. But they were extremely well liked. Esp the female she would go out with the other attorney's on the weekend and everyone seemed to have a great time. The guy ws more interested in travelling so he didn't hang out as much but he did get his social face time in and I think he left a favorable impression. Although I will say if you're already in the military it's a bit different, we had a flep guy and he actually did a separation board during his summer. Which is pretty substanial work (he was terrible though).

RocksnSurf
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:10 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby RocksnSurf » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:26 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
RocksnSurf wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:
RocksnSurf wrote:I was accepted for the Army 2L Summer Internship - Stoked! Has anyone else on this board done the internship (or been accepted for this summer)?

Does anyone know how long it takes the JARO office to send out the final assignment list for the summer interns? I returned the required forms, etc - but haven't really gotten any communication from JARO since early February. Is this normal? Has anyone else gotten their assignments and been told to call in for conferences?


I never did but I worked for the Army JAG office in Wiesbaden, Germany and we had a couple of interns. I have no idea what they were there for (well other than to travel around europe). They really did nothing all day, they'd sit in on meetings and stuff but they spent more time on the computer or the phone more than anything and they were always out at 5. If you're internship is anything like there it'll be cake.


Were the interns just lazy or was this because there wasn't anything for them to do? I think it would be awesome to be placed at a base in Europe but wouldn't want to just sit around on the phone and facebook all summer. Were the interns well liked around the office? I'm interested in Army JAG as a career, not just as a paid summer / vacation.


Well I think a little bit of both. There are five main specialities in JAG as I'm sure you know. Crim law (MJ), Legal assistance (CS), TDS, Op law, and and Ad law. The bread and butter is MJ though. The truth is they have get a little for all the specialities but if you don't know about the UCMJ you're goign to have a hard time figuring out what to do. I don't think they teach the UCMJ in law school (I could be wrong). Basically when you go through each discipline so quickly you can't really get a feel for anything,the only one where you can get some work done is in AD law which is basically just issue spotting. Now of course you can put in some extra effort find one particular issue and research the heck out of it. Recheck the work of the other attorney's. They didn't really have any interest in doing that stuff so that's why I say it was a little bit laziness. But they were extremely well liked. Esp the female she would go out with the other attorney's on the weekend and everyone seemed to have a great time. The guy ws more interested in travelling so he didn't hang out as much but he did get his social face time in and I think he left a favorable impression. Although I will say if you're already in the military it's a bit different, we had a flep guy and he actually did a separation board during his summer. Which is pretty substanial work (he was terrible though).


So the guy who actually did something was terrible? That's funny. Anyway - UCMJ isn't generally taught in law school, but oddly- I'm taking a class in it this semester. I've also done two internships at the local DA's office and have argued pretrial motions and tried a DUI case. So, hopefully I'll be in a good position to contribute wherever I'm placed. It's great that the interns went out with everyone over the weekends - did they also PT with the office?

syncope
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:32 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby syncope » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:51 pm

duckmoney wrote:I have a question for you guys. I've browsed through quite a bit of this thread but didn't really find an answer for it.
FYI, I'm a 0L considering joining JAG, either USAF or Navy.

My question is - for those who choose to do so, what fraction of JAGs are able to make a career out of the military (e.g. get to 20 years and hit retirement)? What about beyond that, doing 30 years and getting the maximum retirement?

I like the idea of the JAG corps, but I feel like a 4 year stint probably wouldn't be worth the opportunity cost when your alternative goal is biglaw. Making a career out of it though, given the hours, vacation time, and excellent retirement, sounds very appealing. I'm just curious as to what to realistically expect in terms of job security if I want to stay in it for the long run.

Thanks!


Military officer here -- Its difficult for many officers to do 20 years in the military, JAGs are the same, but it is quite doable, and many officers do make it that long. You are more likely to want to leave, then to be told to leave before your 20. 30 years for any officer is extraordinarily rare (think the top most generals). Colonel (or Navy Captain) [O-6] is usually around 20-22 years for line officers [that's your everyday guy] it may be slightly sooner for JAGs since you make O-3 quickly (normally takes 4 years, you get it in ~6 months) assuming you get promoted on every chance you have, which is not a given, 20 years is definitely doable. Most officers choose to retire at their 20 year mark if they make it that long. Few leave in the 10-20 year range, you kinda have your cards played at that point.

That being said, making it to 10 years is basically a given...

Also-
If anyone else has some general military questions like a lot I see on this board I'd be happy to answer too, just ask :)

Baylan
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:07 pm

syncope wrote:
duckmoney wrote:I have a question for you guys. I've browsed through quite a bit of this thread but didn't really find an answer for it.
FYI, I'm a 0L considering joining JAG, either USAF or Navy.

My question is - for those who choose to do so, what fraction of JAGs are able to make a career out of the military (e.g. get to 20 years and hit retirement)? What about beyond that, doing 30 years and getting the maximum retirement?

I like the idea of the JAG corps, but I feel like a 4 year stint probably wouldn't be worth the opportunity cost when your alternative goal is biglaw. Making a career out of it though, given the hours, vacation time, and excellent retirement, sounds very appealing. I'm just curious as to what to realistically expect in terms of job security if I want to stay in it for the long run.

Thanks!


Military officer here -- Its difficult for many officers to do 20 years in the military, JAGs are the same, but it is quite doable, and many officers do make it that long. You are more likely to want to leave, then to be told to leave before your 20. 30 years for any officer is extraordinarily rare (think the top most generals). Colonel (or Navy Captain) [O-6] is usually around 20-22 years for line officers [that's your everyday guy] it may be slightly sooner for JAGs since you make O-3 quickly (normally takes 4 years, you get it in ~6 months) assuming you get promoted on every chance you have, which is not a given, 20 years is definitely doable. Most officers choose to retire at their 20 year mark if they make it that long. Few leave in the 10-20 year range, you kinda have your cards played at that point.

That being said, making it to 10 years is basically a given...

Also-
If anyone else has some general military questions like a lot I see on this board I'd be happy to answer too, just ask :)


As a note - pre-cuts, the "up and out" rates for JAGs in the AF anyway, was like 95% from O-3 to O-4, 85% from O-4 to O-5, and 65% from O-5 to O-6. That obviously doesn't count for attrition, but gives you an idea of what it was like before the cuts that we're currently seeing.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Military Law

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:02 pm

ffff
Last edited by BruceWayne on Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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unc0mm0n1
Posts: 1714
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:06 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:57 pm

RocksnSurf wrote:So the guy who actually did something was terrible? That's funny. Anyway - UCMJ isn't generally taught in law school, but oddly- I'm taking a class in it this semester. I've also done two internships at the local DA's office and have argued pretrial motions and tried a DUI case. So, hopefully I'll be in a good position to contribute wherever I'm placed. It's great that the interns went out with everyone over the weekends - did they also PT with the office?


Yeah they did PT it wasn't manadtory but it was kind of thing. They were allowed to miss PT though unlike the regular army folk (unless you had a case. Work > PT). The thing is I've been to three different JAG offices in my time in the Army and all of them had an emphasis on PT. One guy in Wiesbaden had a PT score higher than 400 (300 is considered max). The average at my last duty station was 278, while the Army wide average is less than 200. While I was enlisted I never had a score below 280 and while an officer I never scored below 268 so depending on the JAG office you go to get into shape before you intern if you don't want to be regulated to the female group. Also about that guy who was terrible it really wasn't his fault. He was a flep, former infantry officer 2L, they gave him a can't lose slam dunk separation board. Medic who is a three time drug test failure. No way in the world the defense should win this case. I mean the guy was a drug addict that has a job that requires him to be around drugs. Unfortunately for the Fleper he going up against a seasoned DA who was activated for a year of reserve duty in TDS. She got the guy off and he was allowed to stay in the Army. She made the FLEP look like a child in the court room, it was terrible she really ran circles around him. But he was a 2L and she was a DA with 7 plus years of experience so I guess it was kind of expected.

jess8328
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:36 am

Hey, did you guys notice that 1L intern results were posted yesterday (Sunday April 3rd)? Congrats to everyone who got it.

I wonder if that means Active Duty results will be out soon...

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WhatAboutBob
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:07 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby WhatAboutBob » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:41 am

Congrats to the Army 1L intern selectees!

--LinkRemoved--

A lot of seriously good law schools represented on that list. They weren't kidding about getting more selective.

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Esquire
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:45 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:52 pm

Congrats to all the Primary and Alternate 1L selects. There are only a few slots in the entire country so be proud. It's a hell of an accomplishment and if you take it, will be a hell of an experience.

Interviewers also get really excited to hear about it because the JAG Corps is not as common as other summer gigs. The other 1L interns I keep in touch with were also primary selects on their first Active Duty board. And seriously, how many 1Ls get paid summer gigs? Enjoy it and if any here have any questions, please PM me with your school email and questions. I'll shoot you an email back.

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shepdawg
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:00 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby shepdawg » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:30 pm

Congratulations to all the selected candidates.

Does anyone have a rough estimate how many alternates usually get bumped up?

m4g1c0ff3
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:30 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby m4g1c0ff3 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:08 am

Hey all,
im applying for a judicial externship with a trial court in new york city. Does any one have any idea how the Jag Corp feels about clerkships one way or the other?

jess8328
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:28 pm

m4g1c0ff3 wrote:Hey all,
im applying for a judicial externship with a trial court in new york city. Does any one have any idea how the Jag Corp feels about clerkships one way or the other?


I'm interested in this too. I'm applying for a trial level clerkship, but in California. Ideally, it will be a way to get some experience and earn a little bit of money before heading off to JAOBC. Less ideally, it will be a way to get some experience and earn a little bit of money while re-applying for the fall boards.

m4g1c0ff3
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:30 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby m4g1c0ff3 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:29 pm

Just went to a JAG info session that was hosted at my law school. Needless to say I knew more reading this forum than the 1st Lieutenant did in regards to getting into the JAG Corp.

pellaro22
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:36 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby pellaro22 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:39 pm

Does anyone know if AFTER the Navy JAG deadline has passed but while still "pending" you can upload a letter of recommendation? Genius prof just now got it to me. Thx.

jess8328
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:48 pm

pellaro22 wrote:Does anyone know if AFTER the Navy JAG deadline has passed but while still "pending" you can upload a letter of recommendation? Genius prof just now got it to me. Thx.


I am pretty sure that the website would allow you to, but they won't see it. Worth a try though, right?

hasmith
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:56 am

Re: Military Law

Postby hasmith » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:21 am

pellaro22 wrote:Does anyone know if AFTER the Navy JAG deadline has passed but while still "pending" you can upload a letter of recommendation? Genius prof just now got it to me. Thx.


Talk to the accessions officer. The board may not have met yet. The worst she can tell you is that it is too late to submit. Simply uploading to the site may not do it though. They may have already printed the materials and would not necessarily go back to the site to check for updates. This is all conjecture on my part though, best bet is to talk to the accessions officer.

m4g1c0ff3
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:30 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby m4g1c0ff3 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:33 pm

I have a random question. Im applying to the air force and navy next year for their 2l programs. Does it look bad to the selection board to apply for their 2l internships at the same time incase i cannot land these programs?

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SocalPizza
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:40 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:25 pm

m4g1c0ff3 wrote:I have a random question. Im applying to the air force and navy next year for their 2l programs. Does it look bad to the selection board to apply for their 2l internships at the same time incase i cannot land these programs?


I don't know how the Navy process works for the internships. I do know for the Air Force that if you get the internship, your OYCP application will be cancelled. You are not allowed to apply for both, and the internship spots are announced first.

sunrisenmelody
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:44 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby sunrisenmelody » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:29 pm

SocalPizza wrote:
m4g1c0ff3 wrote:I have a random question. Im applying to the air force and navy next year for their 2l programs. Does it look bad to the selection board to apply for their 2l internships at the same time incase i cannot land these programs?


I don't know how the Navy process works for the internships. I do know for the Air Force that if you get the internship, your OYCP application will be cancelled. You are not allowed to apply for both, and the internship spots are announced first.


I would actually like to hear if it is similar for the Navy. Does anyone have any knowledge about that? I'm doing the Navy JAG internship this summer and I want to apply for the Student Program in the Fall as a 2L. I'd be interested to see if applying for a 2L summer internship would affect my SP application, and if yes, which route is the better way to go. I believe applications for the SP are due in October, but applications for the internships are due in February.

justanothermom
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:18 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby justanothermom » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:44 pm

Heard that the selection rate for AF JAG is 6.7% for this last year.

It is not going to get any higher any time soon. They want a well rounded "whole person" not just high grades but leadership (SBA or such), public service (law clinics, goverment summer jobs, clerking). Also some really good reasons for joining the military (grew up in it, not just same drivel on the PS).

jess8328
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:37 pm

justanothermom wrote:Heard that the selection rate for AF JAG is 6.7% for this last year.


I wonder if that's counting 0% for the February DAP board.

trayball23
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:34 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby trayball23 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:37 pm

the same dribble on PS? idk what you mean by that but if that stands for public service I hardly call that dribble. I just hope your not implying that bc you grew up in the military makes your reason for joining better than someone who just wants to serve their country.

jess8328
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Military Law

Postby jess8328 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:09 pm

trayball23 wrote:the same dribble on PS? idk what you mean by that but if that stands for public service I hardly call that dribble. I just hope your not implying that bc you grew up in the military makes your reason for joining better than someone who just wants to serve their country.


I think PS there means personal statement.




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