Military Law

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:03 am

SocalPizza wrote:
adil91 wrote:I'm interested in being Marine JAG, a few questions

1) I've seen people in this thread say that you might not practice law at all during your commission, how can this be? I mean the JAG part of the marine website depicts law as a pretty central part of being a Marine JAG

2)Considering my first question, are exit opportunities from the Marine JAG as good as the other branches? I'd like to have a chance to work for the USAO


I'm not a Marine JA, but I can tell you that in the Marine Corps, Judge Advocates are unrestricted line officers. Regardless of what anyone else's experience in the past may have been, you have no guarantees for the future. You are 100% available to lead troops into battle.

As I understand it, that's not what has happened in the past with most JA's. But you should know before applying that there are no guarantees to do legal work, regardless of what your recruiter may tell you (and what others' experiences may have been).


I'm going to weigh in even though I normally only do so when I have 100% confidence/personal experience. That's not the case here, but I've seen this sentiment enough recently I feel compelled to give my 1/50th of a dollar.

Yes, it is true every Marine goes through TBS and the Marine ethos is "Every Marine is a Rifleman." However, that does not mean that you will not be serving in your MOS (Military Occupational Specialty). What it means is that those Marine JAGs assigned to operational commanders, by the nature of the size of Marine operations, may be closer to the front than the JAGs of other services. The JAG needs to be a Rifleman just in case things go to he** in a hand-basket and he/she needs to take command of a squad/platoon.

In routine assignment policy-- yes even wartime assignment policy-- the Corps needs its JAGs fulfilling their MOS-- especially in a first tour. It's just too darned inefficient and too expensive to do otherwise. (Note: This doesn't mean you'll necessarily be in a Legal Services Office doing Court Martial defense, etc. The concept of filling the MOS may be somewhat broad.) As an unrestricted line officer, you will be expected to do other things eventually (e.g., attend War College), but that's a way down the road.

Is this a guarantee? No. There are no guarantees. However, I'd hate to see someone who really wants to serve as a JAG in the USMC hesitate because of rumors about having to go be an infantry officer for a few years.

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ashkenazy
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Re: Military Law

Postby ashkenazy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:33 am

However, I'd hate to see someone who really wants to serve as a JAG in the USMC hesitate because of rumors about having to go be an infantry officer for a few years.


I suppose there are separate reasons why a JAG bound law student would want to complete non-law related combat/officer training for close to year before he or she gets any Military Law training, but isn't the chance of being an infantry officer the reason why many people want to serve in the USMC anyways?

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shepdawg
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Re: Military Law

Postby shepdawg » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:38 pm

Rotor wrote:
SocalPizza wrote:
adil91 wrote:I'm interested in being Marine JAG, a few questions

Is this a guarantee? No. There are no guarantees. However, I'd hate to see someone who really wants to serve as a JAG in the USMC hesitate because of rumors about having to go be an infantry officer for a few years.


I personally don't want to go to hell for killing anyone or commanding another person to kill someone.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:45 pm

shepdawg wrote:
Rotor wrote:
SocalPizza wrote:
adil91 wrote:I'm interested in being Marine JAG, a few questions

Is this a guarantee? No. There are no guarantees. However, I'd hate to see someone who really wants to serve as a JAG in the USMC hesitate because of rumors about having to go be an infantry officer for a few years.


I personally don't want to go to hell for killing anyone or commanding another person to kill someone.


Well, good on ya. As there are still many people in this world that are perfectly willing to kill you and those you love, the Marine Corps and the rest of the Armed Forces will just keep on protecting you.

adil91
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Re: Military Law

Postby adil91 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:45 pm

I personally don't want to go to hell for killing anyone or commanding another person to kill someone.[/quote]

Well, good on ya. As there are still many people in this world that are perfectly willing to kill you and those you love, the Marine Corps and the rest of the Armed Forces will just keep on protecting you.[/quote]
If this was facebook, I would like this comment

You seem to be the expert on JAG, do you think Marine JAGs have the same exit opportunitys as JAGs from other services?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:17 pm

adil91 wrote:I personally don't want to go to hell for killing anyone or commanding another person to kill someone.


Well, good on ya. As there are still many people in this world that are perfectly willing to kill you and those you love, the Marine Corps and the rest of the Armed Forces will just keep on protecting you.[/quote]
If this was facebook, I would like this comment

You seem to be the expert on JAG, do you think Marine JAGs have the same exit opportunitys as JAGs from other services?[/quote]

Short answer: Absolutely. While the officer aspect of serving as a Marine JAG differs from the other service (i.e., OCS, TBS, ability to serve in non-legal billets, etc), the attorney element is pretty similar to the other services. The precise day-to-day and assignment progression differs among the services, but if we were to observe the first 4-6 years for all JAGs, the experiences would have a lot of common elements.

Generally speaking, employers seem like former JAGs because of significant trial experience early on and significant leadership experience early on. There is nothing in the Marine JAG experience that does not lend itself to those two qualities. One might argue that the platoon commander training Marines receive at TBS makes then even better equipped in terms of leadership than their peers in the other branches.

As an Air Force JAG, if I found myself in civilian clothes and making a hiring decision on a former Marine JAG, I would not hesitate for a second to pick him/her up if they were otherwise qualified. Having worked with two Marine JAGs in the past, I can tell you they are exceptionally capable and squared away officers. I feel like I learned as much regarding officership over a six month deployment with a Marine JAG than all training the AF has thrown at me.

m4g1c0ff3
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Re: Military Law

Postby m4g1c0ff3 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:32 pm

Do you guys have any idea what kind of classes the board likes to see you take?

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:49 pm

shepdawg wrote:I personally don't want to go to hell for killing anyone or commanding another person to kill someone.


Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell. If not... well, I don't want to turn Military Law into a giant flaming thread. But I believe that it's better to defend yourself and your family than to just let yourselves die at the hands of a murderer. If it's OK to defend yourself and your family, then why not someone else and their family? And if not another family, why not the entire country?

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WhatAboutBob
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Re: Military Law

Postby WhatAboutBob » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:26 pm

Hi all, I just registered with this site. I was selected for active duty with the Army JAGC in January but haven't heard very much from them since then. Does anyone know when we can plan on getting any more info. I did a 1L and 2L internship with army jag so I'm used to the waiting game, but I want to be sure I'm not missing anything.

Also, I can field any questions you may have about Army summer internships or applying for active duty.

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Military Law

Postby joemoviebuff » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:38 pm

WhatAboutBob wrote:Hi all, I just registered with this site. I was selected for active duty with the Army JAGC in January but haven't heard very much from them since then. Does anyone know when we can plan on getting any more info. I did a 1L and 2L internship with army jag so I'm used to the waiting game, but I want to be sure I'm not missing anything.

Also, I can field any questions you may have about Army summer internships or applying for active duty.


How many boards did you go through?

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WhatAboutBob
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Re: Military Law

Postby WhatAboutBob » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:47 pm

joemoviebuff wrote:
WhatAboutBob wrote:Hi all, I just registered with this site. I was selected for active duty with the Army JAGC in January but haven't heard very much from them since then. Does anyone know when we can plan on getting any more info. I did a 1L and 2L internship with army jag so I'm used to the waiting game, but I want to be sure I'm not missing anything.

Also, I can field any questions you may have about Army summer internships or applying for active duty.


How many boards did you go through?


I went through one board in November '10

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Esquire
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Re: Military Law

Postby Esquire » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:37 pm

WhatAboutBob wrote:Hi all, I just registered with this site. I was selected for active duty with the Army JAGC in January but haven't heard very much from them since then. Does anyone know when we can plan on getting any more info. I did a 1L and 2L internship with army jag so I'm used to the waiting game, but I want to be sure I'm not missing anything.

Also, I can field any questions you may have about Army summer internships or applying for active duty.

Former 1L intern here selected AD FY10. I'm still waiting, too. Can you PM me your identity? I can email you from my school email. It'd be nice to have someone to keep in touch regarding this process.

trayball23
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Re: Military Law

Postby trayball23 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:49 pm

I am going to OCS this summer and I am part of the USMC PLC law program.... I cant stand reading this junk about Marine Jags doing non legal work. if you know anything about the program you know it is veryvery very unlikely.... YEs you go to oCS yes you go to the basic school but you need to realize after basic school they are sending all the Marines to another specialty .... if you do not go to infantry school they do not expect you to take lead as an infantry officer... yes you are unrestricted as a line officer but more than anything this is to give you latitude incase you want to take a break from law and do recruiting or be a liason or something other than law... you are trained as a rifleman because Marine JAGS go where ever Marines go and that can sometimes mean in harms way.... can you find yourself on a patrol where you come underfire yes... but i promise you no JAG is going to be asked to go take that hill or clear that cave... there is not a gunnysrgt in the world who would allow this to happen to his men... Marine JAgs are trained to be JAGS... the marines have invested money in their legal education in most cases and even more so if the Marine is in his 2nd tour and gets the law repayment money... so do not let this scare you its a bunch of crap

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:28 pm

trayball23 wrote:I am going to OCS this summer and I am part of the USMC PLC law program.... I cant stand reading this junk about Marine Jags doing non legal work. if you know anything about the program you know it is veryvery very unlikely.... YEs you go to oCS yes you go to the basic school but you need to realize after basic school they are sending all the Marines to another specialty .... if you do not go to infantry school they do not expect you to take lead as an infantry officer... yes you are unrestricted as a line officer but more than anything this is to give you latitude incase you want to take a break from law and do recruiting or be a liason or something other than law... you are trained as a rifleman because Marine JAGS go where ever Marines go and that can sometimes mean in harms way.... can you find yourself on a patrol where you come underfire yes... but i promise you no JAG is going to be asked to go take that hill or clear that cave... there is not a gunnysrgt in the world who would allow this to happen to his men... Marine JAgs are trained to be JAGS... the marines have invested money in their legal education in most cases and even more so if the Marine is in his 2nd tour and gets the law repayment money... so do not let this scare you its a bunch of crap


You haven't worked as a USMC JA or even commissioned yet. For you to come on and post angrily about how we don't know what we're talking about when we say nothing is guaranteed because you're an unrestricted line officer... please just tell me you have a better source than your recruiter. I qualified my statement that you're an unrestricted line officer by saying I don't know what actual USMC JA's are doing now or will do in the future. I have to imagine you're in the same boat as me, though, unless you're dad is a JA or something like that. If that is the case, please let us know what your JA source said is going on right now, because that would actually be illuminating.

trayball23
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Re: Military Law

Postby trayball23 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:42 pm

I am not angry I just would hate for people to be misled by bad info...I did my homework I have spoken with 5 active and 4 retired USMC JA and none of them had any experiences other than what I described .... They actually made it sound absurd when I asked the question because of the lack of experience they would have in doing something infantry related... the way it was described for me is you are trained to be ready for anything but there are so many people other than JAG who are better prepared for combat missions that it just doesnt happen.... in cases of extreme emergencies i can understand but even a PFC whos been in the field for a while would have far more combat experience than a JAG...

tsquare
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Re: Military Law

Postby tsquare » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:17 pm

Does anyone have thoughts on joining JAG after working in a firm? I'm a 3L from a top school going to a pretty selective firm. But I'm already thinking about what I want to do after. Joining the military has been something I've thought about doing for a long time. I want the training, leadership experience, and to do public service.

Based on my research, I'm inclined to choose the Marines. To me, the physical training and possibility of combat is a plus, even if it is remote. I mean, the impetus for wanting to join the military for me is unrelated to being a lawyer. It's just that it seems silly to put myself through law school/law firm hell and then not make use of that experience in the military.

So... is this crazy? What would be the mechanics? Direct Commission? OCS? West Point? Also, does the fact that I'm pretty leftist matter? And what would be my chances at that point (i.e. 3 years in a good firm, no military experience, good school, good grades)?

tsquare
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Re: Military Law

Postby tsquare » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:29 pm

tsquare wrote:Does anyone have thoughts on joining JAG after working in a firm? I'm a 3L from a top school going to a pretty selective firm. But I'm already thinking about what I want to do after. Joining the military has been something I've thought about doing for a long time. I want the training, leadership experience, and to do public service.

Based on my research, I'm inclined to choose the Marines. To me, the physical training and possibility of combat is a plus, even if it is remote. I mean, the impetus for wanting to join the military for me is unrelated to being a lawyer. It's just that it seems silly to put myself through law school/law firm hell and then not make use of that experience in the military.

So... is this crazy? What would be the mechanics? Direct Commission? OCS? West Point? Also, does the fact that I'm pretty leftist matter? And what would be my chances at that point (i.e. 3 years in a good firm, no military experience, good school, good grades)?


Ok, so I've done a little more and it seems OCS is the pathway... but the 28 year old age limit is a problem. The website says exceptions are made--does anyone have insight into this? I'm 26 now.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:34 pm

tsquare wrote:Does anyone have thoughts on joining JAG after working in a firm? I'm a 3L from a top school going to a pretty selective firm. But I'm already thinking about what I want to do after. Joining the military has been something I've thought about doing for a long time. I want the training, leadership experience, and to do public service.

Based on my research, I'm inclined to choose the Marines. To me, the physical training and possibility of combat is a plus, even if it is remote. I mean, the impetus for wanting to join the military for me is unrelated to being a lawyer. It's just that it seems silly to put myself through law school/law firm hell and then not make use of that experience in the military.

So... is this crazy? What would be the mechanics? Direct Commission? OCS? West Point? Also, does the fact that I'm pretty leftist matter? And what would be my chances at that point (i.e. 3 years in a good firm, no military experience, good school, good grades)?


I'll let the Devil Dogs weigh in on the bulk of this but I can at least rule West Point out for you. West Point, aka the United States Military Academy, is the service academy (read: undergraduate) for Army officers. Marine officers that commission through a service academy do so through the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis. The direct reason for this is that there is no Department of the Marine Corps - USMC is administered by the Navy and while the branches are independent in many respects, they are symbiotic in others.

I'm an active duty Air Force JAG, happy to answer questions should you find yourself looking to cross into the wild blue yonder. That said, this thread has a vault of invaluable information already in it. Dig through the previous posts and you will learn tons on all four service branches.

tothePAIN
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Re: Military Law

Postby tothePAIN » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:43 pm

I can weigh in on the age waivers regarding USMC PLC-LAW.

At OCS this last summer, my rackmate was 30 and the other guy next to me was 29. Neither was a PLC-Law candidate. From what I heard though, 30 is pretty much a brightline past which age waivers aren't granted. There may be age waivers for lawyers past 30, but I wouldn't count on it. If you'll commission by the time you're thirty and you can PT, you'll be good to go.

Also to reiterate something someone else was saying earlier. In the Marine Corps, infantry is [b]the[b] most competitive job. They don't just throw a JAG in charge of an infantry platoon. Other people who are better qualified compete for that job.

Edit: OCS with the OCC program is the only realistic option.

tsquare
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Re: Military Law

Postby tsquare » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:57 pm

Thanks tothepain and patrick bateman.

Can anyone comment on the wisdom of going from top firm-->JAG? Long term, I'm thinking back into the private world, or possibly government. I wouldn't be averse to a long military career though... which leads me to wonder, how do JAGs rise through the ranks, if at all, and what's the ceiling?

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El_Gallo
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Re: Military Law

Postby El_Gallo » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:03 pm

There is some really great posts in this thread. Thanks to everybody that has contributed!

Hey sorry if this question has already been answered somewhere in this massive thread. Does anybody know if most school's LRAPs take into account the food and housing allowances that JAGS receive? If the allowances push an individual over the LRAP salary cap then would they be out of luck?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:45 pm

tsquare wrote:Thanks tothepain and patrick bateman.

Can anyone comment on the wisdom of going from top firm-->JAG? Long term, I'm thinking back into the private world, or possibly government. I wouldn't be averse to a long military career though... which leads me to wonder, how do JAGs rise through the ranks, if at all, and what's the ceiling?


All depends on your priorities and goals in life. In terms of financial wisdom, you obviously will not be making BigLaw money as an officer. That said, if you had to read a Wikipedia article on a lawyer, which would you pick?

1. 20 years in BigLaw, partner, helped giant corporations do things with/to other giant corporations, 2200+ hour billables, etc.

2. 20 years of active military service during a time of war, several deployments around the world, assignments around the country/world, opportunity to attend professional military education like the respective War Colleges while earning a master's degree in strategic studies, opportunity to earn an LLM on the govt's dime, etc.

This was more or less the analysis I went through when I was deciding between BigLaw and the JAG Corps. There are plenty of drawbacks to military life, but at the end of the day, I could never see myself being excited to work at a law firm. I get a charge each morning I put on my uniform.


In terms of career progression, we promote like all the other officers. For those career minded, most retire at O-5, the fast burners make O-6. There are general/flag officer positions, but going in with an expectation of a star is a like starting as a 1L and expecting to be a law professor. USAF/USA/USN each have a three star that leads the Corps. I believe USMC has a one star that is the SJA to the Commandant.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:48 pm

El_Gallo wrote:There is some really great posts in this thread. Thanks to everybody that has contributed!

Hey sorry if this question has already been answered somewhere in this massive thread. Does anybody know if most school's LRAPs take into account the food and housing allowances that JAGS receive? If the allowances push an individual over the LRAP salary cap then would they be out of luck?


As a general rule, LRAP only considers taxable, W-2, income. For JAGs, that is your basic pay and any bonuses you may get. All allowances, from BAH/BAS to Hardship Duty and Hostile Fire, are not income. Hence the classification as an "allowance" versus "pay." The IRS has a publication out there that clearly establishes that military allowances are not considered income.

adil91
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Re: Military Law

Postby adil91 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:00 pm

How long do you have to be in the service for them to pay for your LLM?

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:04 pm

adil91 wrote:How long do you have to be in the service for them to pay for your LLM?


For the Air Force: Majors and Major Selects, so about 6-7 years in. It is a competitive selection and you have to get it in something "useful" for the Air Force - environmental, labor, acquisitions/procurement, space law, national security, etc.




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