Military Law

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:54 pm

ReelectClayDavis wrote:Hi all,

Does the Army allow interested students to start applying before graduating from law school; not for the intern program, but for active duty service that commences after graduation from law school?

What I have in mind is a program equivalent to the Navy JAG Student Program (SP) or the Air Force One Year/Two Year Graduate programs. Not seeing any obvious references in the online Army materials to anything comparable.

If there is no program along the lines I am thinking of, what is the earliest one can apply to active duty Army JAG boards? I assume there are earlier opportunities than having to wait until you pass the bar?

Thanks for your replies.


Army allows you to apply to Active Duty after your 2L year is completely done. I happen to also know that if you're graduating a semester early, they'll let you apply after your first semester of your 2L year is done. Basically, you have to be a year from graduating.

It's not like Navy SP or Air Force GLP/OYCP, where they have specific spots for students. Army AD applications are all pooled, students and attorneys alike.

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ReelectClayDavis
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Re: Military Law

Postby ReelectClayDavis » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:06 pm

SocalPizza wrote: Army allows you to apply to Active Duty after your 2L year is completely done. I happen to also know that if you're graduating a semester early, they'll let you apply after your first semester of your 2L year is done. Basically, you have to be a year from graduating.

It's not like Navy SP or Air Force GLP/OYCP, where they have specific spots for students. Army AD applications are all pooled, students and attorneys alike.


Thank you for the quick reply; guess I wasn't missing anything.

Wish the Army did have a program comparable to Navy SP that allowed people to apply after completing 1L, would be nice to have two shots at landing the Army job during 2L year. Waiting until 3L to apply will be more stressful and require extra planning for contingencies.

Actually, before I assume it, is it possible to apply to consecutive boards for both Army and the Navy if you don't get it the first time? Thanks again.

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:09 pm

ReelectClayDavis wrote:Actually, before I assume it, is it possible to apply to consecutive boards for both Army and the Navy if you don't get it the first time? Thanks again.


Yes. You have to resubmit your entire application (unlike Air Force, where you can roll your package over once each time), but considering both applications are entirely online, it's not a big problem.

Keep in mind that for Navy you only get 1 interview every 3 years. So as Patrick Bateman might say if he were a lion, be prepaaaaared.

Also, unless you're EXTREMELY confident in your application, you may want to plan for contingencies anyway. Everyone feels like they'll be the 4%. Truth is, 96% of them aren't.

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ReelectClayDavis
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Re: Military Law

Postby ReelectClayDavis » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:18 pm

SocalPizza wrote: Yes. You have to resubmit your entire application (unlike Air Force, where you can roll your package over once each time), but considering both applications are entirely online, it's not a big problem.

Keep in mind that for Navy you only get 1 interview every 3 years. So as Patrick Bateman might say if he were a lion, be prepaaaaared.

Also, unless you're EXTREMELY confident in your application, you may want to plan for contingencies anyway. Everyone feels like they'll be the 4%. Truth is, 96% of them aren't.


Good to hear, and thanks for the warning on the interview. Yeah I'll be making plans in case I miss out regardless of when I apply, didn't mean to sound like I would throw caution to the wind applying as a 2L. Just that waiting to apply until 3L seems to run a greater risk of getting nothing, than having some tries with the Navy as a 2L. Do you think this might be mitigated somewhat by the Army's higher selection rate (compared to the Navy) though?

Sorry if you already answered this up-thread, but are you a JAG officer?

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:25 pm

I'm not a JAG officer. I've applied to just about everything possible (Navy SP, Army 2L internship, Air Force OYCP, Air Force internship, and currently applying to Navy SP and Army AD) so I know how the application process works.


As far as selection goes, you have to decide if you are intent on working with just one branch or if you want to be a JAG bad enough that you don't care which branch you're with. I fall in the latter group. Speaking of which...



I actually have a question for anyone with a good understanding of the Marine Judge Advocate program. As I understand it, you first have to survive 10 weeks of OCS to commission, there is no loan repayment for your initial commitment, you have 6 months after passing the bar at The Basic School (TBS) which has nothing to do with the law, then you have 3 months at Naval Justice School (NJS) where you actually do study military law alongside Navy and Coast Guard JAGs, and then when you're done with all that, you aren't even guaranteed to be doing legal work, and are an unrestricted line officer (meaning you can be sent to the front lines if they so chose).

Is that all correct?

I was initially under the impression that they paid off $30k in loans when you sign, but apparently that's just a bonus if you re-up with them. I also thought that while you are technically an unrestricted line officer, JA's work as JA's, but I have heard that lately they've got JA's doing all sorts of non-legal things. I would've been fine with either one of those by themselves, but the combination of no loan repayment and the potential for little/no legal experience dissuaded me.

I was actually training with the Marines and got a 244 PFT on my first try, recruiter felt like I was a shoe in, but then I found out some more about the $ and the work and have put things on hold. If someone can confirm these things, I'd feel much better about making a decision. Anyone with knowledge of the Marine JA program want to help me out? Thanks in advance.
Last edited by SocalPizza on Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tothePAIN
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Re: Military Law

Postby tothePAIN » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:35 pm

I'm a OL who just switched over to PLC-Law from PLC-Ground and will commission in a few months after having been at OCS this last summer.

Most of what you have written is correct but JAGs tend to do legal work, especially in the first tour of duty. In fact, the Marine Corps Times recently had an article talking about the need for more JAGs in the Naval Servicces.

Advancement in the Marine Corps generally requires officers to cross train and hold positions outside of their MOS (see the Sacramento OSO being an Admin officer by trade and the Berkeley OSO a JAG by trade.)

On the other hand, you should end up doing legal work for the most part. PM me for more questions, about to go PT.

brownshoe
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Re: Military Law

Postby brownshoe » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:47 pm

SocalPizza wrote: As I understand it, you first have to survive 10 weeks of OCS to commission, there is no loan repayment for your initial commitment, you have 6 months after passing the bar at The Basic School (TBS) which has nothing to do with the law, then you have 3 months at Naval Justice School (NJS) where you actually do study military law alongside Navy and Coast Guard JAGs, and then when you're done with all that, you aren't even guaranteed to be doing legal work, and are an unrestricted line officer (meaning you can be sent to the front lines if they so chose).

Is that all correct?

About half of my Justice School class was USMC (25 or so). As far as I know, every single one went straight to a legal job. While it is true that they don't have the line/staff distinction like the Navy does, most Marine JAs are doing legal work in legal billets.

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scBlueDevil
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Re: Military Law

Postby scBlueDevil » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:12 pm

brownshoe wrote:
SocalPizza wrote: As I understand it, you first have to survive 10 weeks of OCS to commission, there is no loan repayment for your initial commitment, you have 6 months after passing the bar at The Basic School (TBS) which has nothing to do with the law, then you have 3 months at Naval Justice School (NJS) where you actually do study military law alongside Navy and Coast Guard JAGs, and then when you're done with all that, you aren't even guaranteed to be doing legal work, and are an unrestricted line officer (meaning you can be sent to the front lines if they so chose).

Is that all correct?

About half of my Justice School class was USMC (25 or so). As far as I know, every single one went straight to a legal job. While it is true that they don't have the line/staff distinction like the Navy does, most Marine JAs are doing legal work in legal billets.


Many have commented that they are reluctant to apply to the USMC because in the Corps even JAGs can be assigned to the "front lines." I think brownshoe is right that every new officer in the USMC JAGC is assigned to a legal position, and if a Marine JAG were assigned to a non-legal position, I can't imagine that it would be anything other than an administrative or teaching position. Anyway, I'm only a "candidate." I don't really know what happens after commissioning, but I can remark on how the application process for the USMC is different than the application process for the other services.

The actual process of applying to the other services is quick at easy, but it feels like a bit of a crapshoot. The process of applying to the Marine Corps JAG Corps is long and involved, but you have a lot more control over the process. Specifically, you can get into really good physical shape and show a lot of enthusiasm for the Marine Corps.

I'm not sure if anybody else on here has described how involved the application process for the USMC JAGC is. The application process for the JAGC is basically the same as the application process for other officer candidates (excluding those who go through ROTC).

The first step is to get in touch with your local Officer Selection Officer. In my case, I first met with a master sergeant. He spent a while sizing me up before deciding whether he wanted to introduce me to the captain in charge of the office. After two long conversations -- and after assuring them that I could run three miles in a certain time and do a certain number of pull ups -- they gave me an application packet. They added, however, that I'd have to prove my physical condition at an upcoming physical fitness test (PFT) before they would go any further with me in the process.

A few weeks went by before the PFT, and not much happened. But after I did fairly well on the first PFT, things changed a lot. I was quickly added to the local candidate platoon and assigned to a squad and fire team. This process really ramped up my involvement and put at lot of pressure on me to get prepared for Officer Candidate School, even before I submitted my application.

For example, every week there are two one-hour physical training sessions. Before every PT event, we're supposed to memorize different things, like Marine Corps Leadership Traits, and after every PT event, there is a meeting of the local Semper Fi Society to go over stuff that you have to know to be a Marine... These events are optional, but there is pressure on candidates to attend. Last weekend we went on a conditioning hike -- 40 people attended, all wearing boots, utes, and a pack.

Not everybody in the candidate platoon is starting fresh. A good number of these guys either have completed OCS (and are waiting to graduate undergrad and be commissioned) or have been to one of the six-week programs. Theses guys are a great resource, but they're very serious about doing everything the Marine Corps way. So, even if you're at your first PFT and just testing the waters, expect to learn some simple drill procedures so that you can fall in, stand at attention, stand at parade rest, etc. You can't get tested on pull ups until you stand at attention and shout something like, "Good morning gunnery sergeant, Candidate <last name> requests permission to mount the bar," and if you don't request permission to dismount the bar, then your last pull up is not counted.

So, I think that makes it clear that physical training and enthusiasm are a huge part of the application process. I'm not sure what the average PFT score will be this year, but I know that I'm one of the slowest guys out there at 278 (19 pull ups, 100 crunches in 2 minutes, and 3 miles in 20:43). My OSO says I should be able to get by with a 278 because I'm a law applicant, but he's repeatedly expressed that he really wishes I could do a few more pull ups.

The paper application is fairly straightforward but still requires a little more organization than the applications for other services. You have to write it all by hand; typing isn't allowed. Oh, and you have to use black ink -- no blue ink!

You also have to pass your eye, hearing, and medical examinations before they'll submit your application. This makes sense because the next step is to go to OCS. So, all of this is just to get a crack at going to OCS, which is where they really test your ability to lead Marines. You can read more about OCS at this blog.

So far I've really enjoyed all of this stuff, but one thing that keeps me considering the other services is money... The USMC has the least generous loan repayment programs. They have regular loan repayment programs that offer a few thousand dollars a year to students, and my OSO says that from time to time he'll receive notices that there are other funding programs to which Marines can apply. But it's nothing like the $65k that the other services will give you, and the Marines also won't give you the same bonuses to stay in beyond your initial service obligation. It's all about the pride of being a Marine.

And I think I just wrote all of this because I don't want to finish my law review comment...

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:41 am

Thanks for the summary. I've gone through MEPS and have my application filled out entirely. I didn't get cold feet until I got facts on about the relatively low pay (to the other branches) and heard a bit about how many USMC JA's aren't doing law-related work. But I'm sure your summary is good for most people, who probably haven't heard much about USMC.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:26 am

SocalPizza wrote:
ReelectClayDavis wrote:Actually, before I assume it, is it possible to apply to consecutive boards for both Army and the Navy if you don't get it the first time? Thanks again.


Yes. You have to resubmit your entire application (unlike Air Force, where you can roll your package over once each time), but considering both applications are entirely online, it's not a big problem.

Keep in mind that for Navy you only get 1 interview every 3 years. So as Patrick Bateman might say if he were a lion, be prepaaaaared.

Also, unless you're EXTREMELY confident in your application, you may want to plan for contingencies anyway. Everyone feels like they'll be the 4%. Truth is, 96% of them aren't.


You only get 1 interview, but you can re-submit your app., right? (As in re-apply multiple times)

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:39 am

Kobe_Teeth wrote:You only get 1 interview, but you can re-submit your app., right? (As in re-apply multiple times)


Yes.

m4g1c0ff3
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Re: Military Law

Postby m4g1c0ff3 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:43 pm

Hey all,
I am going to be applying to the 2L Navy and Air Force Boards this upcoming Fall.
Two quick questions:
1) Is there anything that the navy looks for that the Air Force may not and vice verse? I figure i should start worrying about all this sooner than later.
2) I know for the AF JAG OYCP i need to take the AFOQT for acceptance into ROTC. Any advice for good ways to begin prepping? Ideally ill find time to prep between a job and working on my moot corp brief lol.

trayball23
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Re: Military Law

Postby trayball23 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:46 pm

Is there a list out there of bases that have JAGs working there? Do only certian bases have military court room? Id love to go to school near a base that has it so I can sit in. ( Just got accepted into USMC plc law)

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:56 pm

m4g1c0ff3 wrote:Hey all,
I am going to be applying to the 2L Navy and Air Force Boards this upcoming Fall.
Two quick questions:
1) Is there anything that the navy looks for that the Air Force may not and vice verse? I figure i should start worrying about all this sooner than later.
2) I know for the AF JAG OYCP i need to take the AFOQT for acceptance into ROTC. Any advice for good ways to begin prepping? Ideally ill find time to prep between a job and working on my moot corp brief lol.


1. Do you mean actual physical things, like paperwork? As far as major differences, Navy accepts as many LORs as you feel like sending, Air Force maxes out at 5. Other than that, nothing really comes to mind. If you mean what they're looking for in candidates, I haven't been able to crack into either one so I can't be of much help there. If you look into the differences between what JAGs do in the different branches, you'll get a good idea of what they prioritize.

2. You do not need to take the AFOQT to apply for OYCP. You have to meet with your local ROTC, interview with them, and get what is basically a letter of intent from them. You submit that with your OYCP application.

allAF
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Re: Military Law

Postby allAF » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:07 pm

Social Pizza is correct in that the AFOQT isn't something you have to take prior to getting accepted into OYCP. But once you are accepted, you will have to take it. It is NOT a big deal. I am an OK test taker - certainly not terrible but also not the best. I don't have strong math skills, although I have taken up to a Calc class (many many years ago). I casually studied for the only the math section for literally 4 hours the night before and scored shockingly well on it. There are some generic test prep books you can get at one of the big bookstores that can give you a sense of what is on the exam and how it is structured.

m4g1c0ff3 wrote: I know for the AF JAG OYCP i need to take the AFOQT for acceptance into ROTC. Any advice for good ways to begin prepping? Ideally ill find time to prep between a job and working on my moot corp brief lol.

boat343
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Re: Military Law

Postby boat343 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:35 pm

Ryduce wrote:Is JAG selective at all? I heard you have to conduct multiple phone interviews.And you may not get the gig.

And you get promoted to O-3 6 months in right?

That'll put you at about 80k a year with tax free housing plus health benefits and food allowances.Seems like a sweet deal to me.


I haven't read down, and don't know if somebody responded to this yet, but, 80k seems inflated. I am prior military--granted enlisted--however, I don't believe 0-3 make 80k. Probably closer to 60 after taxes--only your bah is tax free. Now, if you happened to operate in a combat zone (which should hardly be considered a combat zone if a JAG is there) then you are entitled family separation pay (if married), hazardous duty pay, combat pay, and your entire check is tax free. That might get you close to 80 considering you will get these pays for 7-12 months. However, don't count on 80k. And, unlike doctors, I don't believer JAGs get a professional bonus.

tothePAIN
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Re: Military Law

Postby tothePAIN » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:44 pm

I've heard its about 80k pre-tax within a year. (Factoring in the BAH as untaxed.)

boat343
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Re: Military Law

Postby boat343 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:50 pm

tothePAIN wrote:I've heard its about 80k pre-tax within a year. (Factoring in the BAH as untaxed.)


http://www.navycs.com/2011-military-pay-chart.html

And then you can figure another $1800 for bah and $250 for bas.

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scBlueDevil
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Re: Military Law

Postby scBlueDevil » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:47 pm

boat343 wrote:
tothePAIN wrote:I've heard its about 80k pre-tax within a year. (Factoring in the BAH as untaxed.)


http://www.navycs.com/2011-military-pay-chart.html

And then you can figure another $1800 for bah and $250 for bas.


You can also just use the DoD's military pay calculator.

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SocalPizza
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Re: Military Law

Postby SocalPizza » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:52 pm

scBlueDevil wrote:
boat343 wrote:
tothePAIN wrote:I've heard its about 80k pre-tax within a year. (Factoring in the BAH as untaxed.)


http://www.navycs.com/2011-military-pay-chart.html

And then you can figure another $1800 for bah and $250 for bas.


You can also just use the DoD's military pay calculator.


TITCR.

boat343
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Re: Military Law

Postby boat343 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:01 am

scBlueDevil wrote:
boat343 wrote:
tothePAIN wrote:I've heard its about 80k pre-tax within a year. (Factoring in the BAH as untaxed.)


http://www.navycs.com/2011-military-pay-chart.html

And then you can figure another $1800 for bah and $250 for bas.


You can also just use the DoD's military pay calculator.


Wow!!! I did not know officers made that much. Color-me-bitter-enlisted.

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DMBFan
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Re: Military Law

Postby DMBFan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:11 am

boat343 wrote:
scBlueDevil wrote:
boat343 wrote:
tothePAIN wrote:I've heard its about 80k pre-tax within a year. (Factoring in the BAH as untaxed.)


http://www.navycs.com/2011-military-pay-chart.html

And then you can figure another $1800 for bah and $250 for bas.


You can also just use the DoD's military pay calculator.


Wow!!! I did not know officers made that much. Color-me-bitter-enlisted.


Yea they do. Makes me a little nervous that I decided to get out (Navy Officer) to go to law school. I will probably be lucky to make as much as I would as O-3.

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Paichka
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Re: Military Law

Postby Paichka » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:32 am

Wow. I make a lot more than I thought I did.

O-3 with seven years in, two dependents, DC area BAH FTW!

m4g1c0ff3
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Re: Military Law

Postby m4g1c0ff3 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:37 am

Hey all,
I was placed on the alternates list for the navy internship this summer as a 1L. is this a big list? is it hard to get on or does everyone get placed on it? should I be happy? lol

lostbeans
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Re: Military Law

Postby lostbeans » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:27 am

Apologies if this question has been asked. I did a quick forum and google search and I can't find out where the application website is for USAF DAP applicants. I applied last year and was rejected from several boards, so I know that I once knew how to find the website for DAP applicants. I go here: http://www.afjag.af.mil/careers/index.asp which leads me to here --LinkRemoved-- which leads me back to the JAG homepage. I can access the application website for the Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard but not one for active duty -- have they removed the website, just liked they stopped April Boards?




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