Military Law

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Baylan
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Baylan » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:05 pm

SocalPizza wrote:
tothePAIN wrote:Is Biglaw essentially not an option?


Only if your TLS handle is Esquire.


The JAG and Biglaw tracks also seem extremely separate. JAGs, at least after their initial 4 year stint, are generalists. Biglaw lawyers are specialists at the vast majority of levels. There also isn't exactly a ton of transactional work, mergers, or litigation outside of criminal litigation in the first few years of a JAGs career.

While a long term specialization might be possible, I bet you'd be looking at an extended stint in the military before you're sufficiently specialized

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Rotor
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Re: Military Law

Postby Rotor » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:49 pm

Baylan wrote:
SocalPizza wrote:
tothePAIN wrote:Is Biglaw essentially not an option?


Only if your TLS handle is Esquire.


The JAG and Biglaw tracks also seem extremely separate. JAGs, at least after their initial 4 year stint, are generalists. Biglaw lawyers are specialists at the vast majority of levels. There also isn't exactly a ton of transactional work, mergers, or litigation outside of criminal litigation in the first few years of a JAGs career.

While a long term specialization might be possible, I bet you'd be looking at an extended stint in the military before you're sufficiently specialized

I think this focus on what the military legal job is like as a training ground for being a BigLaw prospect is misplaced. What the firms will be looking for is someone who has been in the military, learning maturity, responsibility, work ethic, etc. (Seemed to be the theme from my Fall OCI). The fact that the person might have additional expertise in a particular practice area would just be an additional leg up.

FWIW, I have a JAG friend who resigned his commission because he got an awesome job at a NYC boutique (NLJ250). They made him an offer he couldn't refuse, even though he was senior enough to make the 20 year career enticement a serious consideration.

Groundie
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Re: Military Law

Postby Groundie » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:28 am

Anyone know anything about the Enlisted AF contracting field? 65C? I know the obvious differences between enlisting and being an officer.

I'm going to keep applying to the AF JAG DA program, but it's not looking good. Contracting officer would be great but the last non-rated board was canceled and it looks like there's at least a two-year backup for OTS, so I'm wondering if I should get 4 years in enlisted contracting.

hasmith
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:56 am

Re: Military Law

Postby hasmith » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:05 am

Groundie wrote:Anyone know anything about the Enlisted AF contracting field? 65C? I know the obvious differences between enlisting and being an officer.

I'm going to keep applying to the AF JAG DA program, but it's not looking good. Contracting officer would be great but the last non-rated board was canceled and it looks like there's at least a two-year backup for OTS, so I'm wondering if I should get 4 years in enlisted contracting.


I worked quite closely with AF contracting officers while I was deployed to Afghanistan. I was quite impressed with the level of responsibility given to the enlisted members, I believe that the enlisted members can qualify for warrants (authority to obligate US funds).

I would think that experience in that field would gel very nicely with a civilian career as a contracting officer.

'CuseLaw2011
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Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:43 am

Re: Military Law

Postby 'CuseLaw2011 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:37 pm

Bateman:

Would you mind posting when the FEB results drop on FLITE? I'm fretting over why my phone hasn't rung yet, but after running through some old posts, it looks like there's still another 7-14 days before they should really be expected. Thanks in advance PB.

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Patrick Bateman
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Re: Military Law

Postby Patrick Bateman » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:47 pm

'CuseLaw2011 wrote:Bateman:

Would you mind posting when the FEB results drop on FLITE? I'm fretting over why my phone hasn't rung yet, but after running through some old posts, it looks like there's still another 7-14 days before they should really be expected. Thanks in advance PB.


Head over to the Fed Board thread under JAG in the AFOTS forum.

'CuseLaw2011
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Re: Military Law

Postby 'CuseLaw2011 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:12 pm

Keeping "an even and patient keel" is not something I'm particularly good at. C'est la vie. Stand by to stand by.

Thanks for the tip on the other board - I didn't know it was an open forum for all (forgive me for being a dunce).

tothePAIN
Posts: 93
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Re: Military Law

Postby tothePAIN » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:18 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I was asking because I'll only be in my late 20s when I complete my first four years as a JAG and wanted to know about career prospects in general. I'm not a big law or bust guy. I'm serving my country for a reason. More knowledge is always useful. (On the other hand, a few years in big law could make for a good nest egg. etc.)

Kilotango
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kilotango » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:59 pm

Another question,

I honestly despise the whole idea of big law, and plan to do my time serving the country. That being said, what are the best paying jobs in US Government for a former JAG? Department of Justice? FBI (Even though its in the DOJ)?

2L2011
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Re: Military Law

Postby 2L2011 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:11 pm

Why switch branches? If you do good in it stay career.

Kilotango wrote:Another question,

I honestly despise the whole idea of big law, and plan to do my time serving the country. That being said, what are the best paying jobs in US Government for a former JAG? Department of Justice? FBI (Even though its in the DOJ)?

Kilotango
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kilotango » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:50 pm

Well I would, but I'm sure at some point I could transition to reserve and take on a career in a similar field just working for another arm of the US Government. From what I've read so far, the pay bump is pretty substantial. It would be the best of both worlds, serving and making a really good salary.

2L2011
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:57 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby 2L2011 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:06 pm

Not to mention two pensions(even reserves and NG have the "20 year option") and if it's a salary govt job then they would keep paying you even while doing military training or deployments. I knew a guy in AIT who was doing just that. They call it "double dipping" but they let it happen all the same.

Your thinking the right way! :mrgreen:

Have you considered starting out reserves then if that is you goal?

Kilotango wrote:Well I would, but I'm sure at some point I could transition to reserve and take on a career in a similar field just working for another arm of the US Government. From what I've read so far, the pay bump is pretty substantial. It would be the best of both worlds, serving and making a really good salary.

Kilotango
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kilotango » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:54 am

2L2011 wrote:Have you considered starting out reserves then if that is you goal?


No, I thought you had to serve a full 4 before you could be in the reserve JAG Corps?

2L2011
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Re: Military Law

Postby 2L2011 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:00 am

Could be, I don't know. I was enlisted back in my teen years when I cared enough to run before dawn in January in shorts while being bitched at for no goddamn good reason other than I was too stupid to go an awsome summer camp where people got laid! Don't get me wrong, saw plenty of naked bodies.......but a bunch of dudes in the shower hosing off after a 12hour day of fighting shadows dosn't count for much.......but we did get to wear matching uniforms called "blouses" wear necklaces specially personally engraved, help eachother put on makeup(cammo) have sleepovers in the woods(FTX) and sing songs ALL day(cadences)......wonder why the gays want in? There you go..... :shock: :lol:

Kilotango wrote:
2L2011 wrote:Have you considered starting out reserves then if that is you goal?


No, I thought you had to serve a full 4 before you could be in the reserve JAG Corps?

Kilotango
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kilotango » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:16 am

Hahaha believe it or not... I've experienced some of that. Granted it was only 2 weeks. I was in the NROTC here in college, till I found out that you can't go to law school through ROTC and dropped out. We had our "indoc" weeks in VA Beach... Hottest place in the world to me. Highlight of the week had to be waking up at 0430 to the sound of yelling, doing PT and calisthenics then trying to fit 8 guys into a shower with 3 shower heads. Worst part was... we were pretty sure these two kids were a little... different. They always managed to end up in my showering group too... Sucked.

Want to know the weirdest part of all? I miss being yelled at, doing O-Course stuff with a drill sergeant breathing down my back and 3 mile runs to the beach. It's part of the reason why I might go Army JAG. Not sure though. Going through Airborne school and possibly Ranger school... Sounds amazing.

2L2011
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Re: Military Law

Postby 2L2011 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:19 am

They let you quit? I take it you were still in the first 2years and hadn't done "camp challenge" or been assigned a reserve unit yet? Did they give you a DD-214? Do you remember the discharge code?(it matters)

Kilotango
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Re: Military Law

Postby Kilotango » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:23 am

Yeah, they let me quit. I wasn't a NROTC Scholarship student and was doing it on my own time. I didn't have to get a DD-214, cause I got out before the second year. I did however have to write a formal letter to Naval Personnel explaining my leave from the branch. I pretty much just said "I plan to re-enter the service at a later date. No options were available for me to pursue JAG through the ROTC." I got a generic response back. Had to hand back my khakis, boots, BDU's... everything pretty much. Did let me keep the canteen though, how thoughtful of them.

2L2011
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:57 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby 2L2011 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:34 am

You should be fine then. Odd about the canteen though. Quartermaster must not of been doing his job too well that day.(hitting his own "canteen" too hard perhaps? 8) )

Kilotango wrote:Yeah, they let me quit. I wasn't a NROTC Scholarship student and was doing it on my own time. I didn't have to get a DD-214, cause I got out before the second year. I did however have to write a formal letter to Naval Personnel explaining my leave from the branch. I pretty much just said "I plan to re-enter the service at a later date. No options were available for me to pursue JAG through the ROTC." I got a generic response back. Had to hand back my khakis, boots, BDU's... everything pretty much. Did let me keep the canteen though, how thoughtful of them.

Kilotango
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Kilotango » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:39 am

Ah, I didnt really ask. Just kinda threw it up on the dresser for sentimental value. Yeah, the weirdest thing was that they kept pushing me to stay for the second year. I just didnt want to waste 2 years as a SWO (Surface Warfare Officer) before I would be eligible for law school. You think the Navy would have something available for kids to go into Law... Guess its not a priority.

2L2011
Posts: 123
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Re: Military Law

Postby 2L2011 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:45 am

Yeah, but who do you think they need more of? The hundred guys on the water to fight,kill&die, or the one guy assigned to work 100hourweeks to defend the lot of them when they get drunk and beat the hell out of some hippie? 8)

Kilotango wrote:Ah, I didnt really ask. Just kinda threw it up on the dresser for sentimental value. Yeah, the weirdest thing was that they kept pushing me to stay for the second year. I just didnt want to waste 2 years as a SWO (Surface Warfare Officer) before I would be eligible for law school. You think the Navy would have something available for kids to go into Law... Guess its not a priority.

Kilotango
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Kilotango » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:52 am

2L2011 wrote:Yeah, but who do you think they need more of? The hundred guys on the water to fight,kill&die, or the one guy assigned to work 100hourweeks to defend the lot of them when they get drunk and beat the hell out of some hippie? 8)


Hahaha, honestly in current war we're in... It's sending frigates to defend oil platforms, not engaging the taliban's rubber boats haha. The big push right now is nuclear power and spec-ops. Spec-ops was the only of the two I actually found interest in, but after meeting a few actual SEALs on our tour of NAS Oceana... I realized just how freakishly amazing those guys really are.

But hey! I'd think there's lots of sexual assault cases with women being allowed on submarines now and what not!

2L2011
Posts: 123
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Re: Military Law

Postby 2L2011 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:58 am

true, I give my father in law(ex navy and I'm ex army) a hard time about how they are todays "Marine Taxi"(he hates that)
I should've worded it as, grunts in the field vs guy mopping up the mess.
You only need one janitor per company to mop up the poo and turn it into a shiny minty fresh result. :mrgreen:
(This coming from a guy who messed up enough to know a thing or too about KP&extra duty :? )

Kilotango wrote:
2L2011 wrote:Yeah, but who do you think they need more of? The hundred guys on the water to fight,kill&die, or the one guy assigned to work 100hourweeks to defend the lot of them when they get drunk and beat the hell out of some hippie? 8)


Hahaha, honestly in current war we're in... It's sending frigates to defend oil platforms, not engaging the taliban's rubber boats haha. The big push right now is nuclear power and spec-ops. Spec-ops was the only of the two I actually found interest in, but after meeting a few actual SEALs on our tour of NAS Oceana... I realized just how freakishly amazing those guys really are.

But hey! I'd think there's lots of sexual assault cases with women being allowed on submarines now and what not!

Kilotango
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:44 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby Kilotango » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:25 pm

Anyone got a clue if the Marines offer chances for Judge Advocates to attend ground training schools like the US Army?

RaiderInBlue47
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:16 pm

Re: Military Law

Postby RaiderInBlue47 » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:04 pm

Out of curiosity, anyone have some knowledge on USMC PLC? I keep reading that USMC JAG isn't easy, are you guys saying that it's not easy training or that it's really selective?

I'm a college sophomore that's aiming for low T1/T2 schools in the South (haven't taken the LSAT yet, that's the kicker) and I'd love to be a Marine Officer regardless of being a JAG. I've considered doing PLC Air before but I might as well try for PLC Law and submit my packet for OCS Air if Law didn't work out.

Is it selective? I haven't been able to find any data regarding GPAs or LSATs they require. I'm a fitness/military/gun nut so have no worries about me getting a really nice score on the PFT and kicking ass in the rifle work and I'll be as gung ho as Infantry.

And do you think that a stint as a JAG would help with portability of your degree? If I were to hypothetically go to a T3 like Stetson, I'd love to work in the Daytona/Tampa/North Florida area, but could I move if I had to?

And I'd like to echo above poster's question about ground training for USMC. I know that almost all of the Marine enlisted have to constantly maintain their infantry readiness (Rifleman first, your job second), but I've never heard about that for the officers.

tothePAIN
Posts: 93
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Re: Military Law

Postby tothePAIN » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:16 pm

I'm in the USMC PLC program.

Its selective but if you're a good to go person with a good GPA/LSAT and a good PFT score you should be able to be selected. Its tough because of the training and the culture.

As far as infantry training goes, my thoughts are that JAGs are not sent to the Infantry Officers Course (IOC) but may be later to sent to some form of additional war fighting training.

Here's why.

To become a Marine Officer you go through three stages of training before becoming fully active.

Officer Candidate School (OCS - 10 weeks) => The Basic School (TBS - 26 weeks) => MOS School (Usually 10 weeks)

For JAGS the MOS school is the Naval Justice School in Newport, RI. For Infantry Officers, the MOS School is IOC.

The Basic School is six months of infantry centric training focused on making sure that every officer can serve as a basic infantry officer in a pinch. For that reason, I doubt that its common for JAGs to be sent to additional ground training.




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