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Re: Military Law
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:19 pm
by Rocktober2007
jchoggan wrote:jess8328 wrote:How big a plus is a great letter of recommendation from a captain or major? Better than a great letter from a civilian supervisor or professor?
For what type of position? Are the potential recommenders JAG officers, or are they in another AFSC?
In general, someone who has personal experience with you in a legal capacity (ie. professor or supervisor in a legal position) trumps someone with experience in a non-legal capacity. However, as the above poster said, if they know you really well in a professional setting, it could be very helpful, and their rank and military affiliation will probably have some benefit, depending on the type of position/firm to which you're applying.
FWIW, I did a mock interview w/ a V10 in DC last year. The partner stated that I should clearly list my military affiliation/rank on my resume, and make sure my recommenders do the same in their LORs.
Yep, it was someone who had personal experience with me in a legal capacity. I can't believe I didn't think of asking them for a recommendation for the fall Army/Navy boards. I'm hoping it helps push me over the edge for the March boards.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:49 pm
by umassalpha
Got my Army Jag interview in a few hours (second time around, with same FSO...) any last minute advice?
Re: Military Law
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:19 pm
by SocalPizza
umassalpha wrote:Got my Army Jag interview in a few hours (second time around, with same FSO...) any last minute advice?
Don't do whatever you did last time.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:22 pm
by Rocktober2007
umassalpha wrote:Got my Army Jag interview in a few hours (second time around, with same FSO...) any last minute advice?
I have mine next week. I thought my first one went really well, so I'm not sure how I should approach this one.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:47 am
by umassalpha
jess8328 wrote:umassalpha wrote:Got my Army Jag interview in a few hours (second time around, with same FSO...) any last minute advice?
I have mine next week. I thought my first one went really well, so I'm not sure how I should approach this one.
Good luck Jess! I wasn't sure as well, but I was allowed a chance to explain why I was applying again which was helpful.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:48 pm
by JP_Spungo
I believe this was addressed previously with respect to Air Force JAG, but does anyone know whether Army JAG permits 2-page resumes?
Re: Military Law
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:01 pm
by 'CuseLaw2011
During my interview for the Air Force's DAP, the SJA I interviewed with told me that under the best case scenario, he could be calling as early as today, provided the accessions board met on time. Anyone have any insight into whether or not the board has definitely met yet? Or, conversely, any reason to expect other than the best case scenario?
Re: Military Law
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:17 pm
by Patrick Bateman
'CuseLaw2011 wrote:During my interview for the Air Force's DAP, the SJA I interviewed with told me that under the best case scenario, he could be calling as early as today, provided the accessions board met on time. Anyone have any insight into whether or not the board has definitely met yet? Or, conversely, any reason to expect other than the best case scenario?
14 Feb at the earliest.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:46 am
by Texan09
Patrick Bateman wrote:'CuseLaw2011 wrote:During my interview for the Air Force's DAP, the SJA I interviewed with told me that under the best case scenario, he could be calling as early as today, provided the accessions board met on time. Anyone have any insight into whether or not the board has definitely met yet? Or, conversely, any reason to expect other than the best case scenario?
14 Feb at the earliest.
Patrick Bateman:
Do you know if the board has met yet? Someone on AF OTS said they heard they were meeting on the 14th. It wasn't from a trusted source, so I took it as a rumor.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:01 pm
by SocalPizza
Texan09 wrote:Patrick Bateman wrote:'CuseLaw2011 wrote:During my interview for the Air Force's DAP, the SJA I interviewed with told me that under the best case scenario, he could be calling as early as today, provided the accessions board met on time. Anyone have any insight into whether or not the board has definitely met yet? Or, conversely, any reason to expect other than the best case scenario?
14 Feb at the earliest.
Patrick Bateman:
Do you know if the board has met yet? Someone on AF OTS said they heard they were meeting on the 14th. It wasn't from a trusted source, so I took it as a rumor.
PB just confirmed on the Air Force OTS forum that the 14th is the day the board will be meeting.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:01 am
by oberlin08
Instead of sifting through this long thread I will just ask my question.
I am interested in doing the JAG Corps with the USMC.
How hard (acceptance wise) is it to go the PLC-Law Route vs. applying as a 3L through the OCC track?
Any other thoughts?
FYI I am a 1L with an LSAT over 150 and am in the top 40% of my class at a 2L. Also, I have significant leadership experience both in playing varsity sports all throughout college, and through various different stuff prior to and during law school.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:13 am
by tothePAIN
@Oberlin08
I think I can reply to you here.
I'm a 0L who just transferred over to PLC-Law, so my experience is a little limited but my inclination is that its easier to do PLC-Law than it is OCC. The reason for this is that you'll be competing for PLC-Law spots with only current law students. With OCC you'll be competing against every lawyer that wants to join.
The Marine Corps is looking for candidates who are more culture fits. How's your PFT score? Good leadership? Etc.
The Gunnery Sergeant in my office tells me that they've spoken to quite a few lawyers. They want law students more than they do lawyers because it demonstrates that the Marine Corps is the goal, not the fall back option.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:14 am
by tothePAIN
Does anyone know what Post-JAG career prospects are like? Is Biglaw essentially not an option?
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:37 am
by SocalPizza
tothePAIN wrote:Does anyone know what Post-JAG career prospects are like? Is Biglaw essentially not an option?
I think there's a thread on this somewhere, but a short answer will suffice: You generally have the flexibility to work wherever you want after serving as a JAG. Biglaw is not ruled out at all. I know several former JAGs who were aggressively pursued by large firms because their courtroom experience and other things you get as a JAG.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:46 am
by Esquire
tothePAIN wrote:Does anyone know what Post-JAG career prospects are like? Is Biglaw essentially not an option?
Why are you considering big law after jag?
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:05 am
by SocalPizza
Esquire wrote:tothePAIN wrote:Does anyone know what Post-JAG career prospects are like? Is Biglaw essentially not an option?
Why are you considering big law after jag?
I'm guessing it has something to do with money. Just a guess though.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:02 pm
by Esquire
SocalPizza wrote:I'm guessing it has something to do with money. Just a guess though.
Okay. The following quoted post is generally not true:
SocalPizza wrote:I think there's a thread on this somewhere, but a short answer will suffice: You generally have the flexibility to work wherever you want after serving as a JAG. Biglaw is not ruled out at all. I know several former JAGs who were aggressively pursued by large firms because their courtroom experience and other things you get as a JAG.
JAG skills don't translate well to biglaw. If you can't get biglaw out of law school, don't expect to go into JAG and lateral over. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? I doubt it. Courtroom experience isn't prized by biglaw.
Not to mention if you're genuinely pursuing JAG while in law school, you're likely not interested in biglaw in the first place.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:10 pm
by tothePAIN
The correct response is money, as to why I'd be interested in big law post JAG.
I'm more interested in knowing what post-JAG career prospects are like.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:52 pm
by Kilotango
Bateman,
I was wondering if you ever hear of any JAG's going on to become contract negotiators with defense contractors (LockheedMartin, Boeing, Beretta, etc.). I think it would be too cool to work for a company like that after I finish my time serving. Do they hire negotiators to their company? Or would they outsource to some other company that specializes in it? Just curious, I've emailed Boeing and Lockheed and given the same response, something to the effect of : "We do have no comments in regard to the selection process of lawyers used for negotiation. We can only recommend a top 25 law school and that you maintain a solid GPA".
So take whatever you can from that... I've got nothing.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:47 pm
by Texan09
Esquire wrote:SocalPizza wrote:I'm guessing it has something to do with money. Just a guess though.
Okay. The following quoted post is generally not true:
SocalPizza wrote:I think there's a thread on this somewhere, but a short answer will suffice: You generally have the flexibility to work wherever you want after serving as a JAG. Biglaw is not ruled out at all. I know several former JAGs who were aggressively pursued by large firms because their courtroom experience and other things you get as a JAG.
JAG skills don't translate well to biglaw. If you can't get biglaw out of law school, don't expect to go into JAG and lateral over. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? I doubt it. Courtroom experience isn't prized by biglaw.
Not to mention if you're genuinely pursuing JAG while in law school, you're likely not interested in biglaw in the first place.
I'm only a 1L and I have already met (at recruiting events) multiple biglaw and midlaw attorneys that went JAG first. According to them, the litigation skills they acquired in the service helped them get those jobs.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:15 pm
by Esquire
FWIW, from an actual JAG, former biglaw attorney:
My plan was and continues to be to stay in until I no longer enjoy what I'm doing. If I left I would look for AUSA or good state DA jobs. I definitely would not go back to biglaw even if it were possible, which it probably isn't.
I just don't think JAG -> biglaw is a common career path, and when it does happen it's probably people who specialized in federal contracting, which I have no interest in.
There's really not one most common route. A lot of people go BIGFEDGOV but a lot also go into private practice. The one thing that is not typical at the 4 year mark is BIGLAW, however even that is very possible later down the road if you focus on government contracting as you get more senior.
--LinkRemoved--
Also, IMO, as a former JAG intern and an active duty select, don't count on biglaw after JAG.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:55 am
by SocalPizza
tothePAIN wrote:Is Biglaw essentially not an option?
Only if your TLS handle is Esquire.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:41 pm
by Patrick Bateman
Kilotango wrote:Bateman,
I was wondering if you ever hear of any JAG's going on to become contract negotiators with defense contractors (LockheedMartin, Boeing, Beretta, etc.). I think it would be too cool to work for a company like that after I finish my time serving. Do they hire negotiators to their company? Or would they outsource to some other company that specializes in it? Just curious, I've emailed Boeing and Lockheed and given the same response, something to the effect of : "We do have no comments in regard to the selection process of lawyers used for negotiation. We can only recommend a top 25 law school and that you maintain a solid GPA".
So take whatever you can from that... I've got nothing.
I have no direct knowledge on this.
Anecdotally, Air Force JAGs that specialize in contracts (acquisitions and procurement) do very well on the civilian side after they separate. That said, most of us came in to be trial lawyers and the thought of doing military contracts (which has nothing to do with UCC contracts or the like) is not terribly appealing.
Re: Military Law
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:05 pm
by Baylan
SocalPizza wrote:tothePAIN wrote:Is Biglaw essentially not an option?
Only if your TLS handle is Esquire.
The JAG and Biglaw tracks also seem extremely separate. JAGs, at least after their initial 4 year stint, are generalists. Biglaw lawyers are specialists at the vast majority of levels. There also isn't exactly a ton of transactional work, mergers, or litigation outside of criminal litigation in the first few years of a JAGs career.
While a long term specialization might be possible, I bet you'd be looking at an extended stint in the military before you're sufficiently specialized
Re: Military Law
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:49 pm
by Rotor
Baylan wrote:SocalPizza wrote:tothePAIN wrote:Is Biglaw essentially not an option?
Only if your TLS handle is Esquire.
The JAG and Biglaw tracks also seem extremely separate. JAGs, at least after their initial 4 year stint, are generalists. Biglaw lawyers are specialists at the vast majority of levels. There also isn't exactly a ton of transactional work, mergers, or litigation outside of criminal litigation in the first few years of a JAGs career.
While a long term specialization might be possible, I bet you'd be looking at an extended stint in the military before you're sufficiently specialized
I think this focus on what the military legal job is like as a training ground for being a BigLaw prospect is misplaced. What the firms will be looking for is someone who has been in the military, learning maturity, responsibility, work ethic, etc. (Seemed to be the theme from my Fall OCI). The fact that the person might have additional expertise in a particular practice area would just be an additional leg up.
FWIW, I have a JAG friend who resigned his commission because he got an awesome job at a NYC boutique (NLJ250). They made him an offer he couldn't refuse, even though he was senior enough to make the 20 year career enticement a serious consideration.